New Christgau Consumer Guide From MSN Music

this is funny in that it seems the Popist brigade has embraced her almost to a man

Privileged to be on Drag City Records?

The strawman alert is, I think, not so much that the alleged ideologues caused her supposed overratedness but that, you know, THERE IS THIS DEMOGRAPHIC, SEE, THAT REFUSES TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT ORIGINALITY DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN ARTISTIC TRIUMPH.

well there is the pesky fact that the first one had some good songs and the second one was kinda Check Out My IMPORTANT IDEAS an' shit

-- Tim Ellison

That thought crosses my mind whenever I read Christgau.

"it seems the Popist brigade has embraced her almost to a man."

Huh??

I loved Milk Eyed Mender and [harsh words in re: Ys redacted, yay self-censorship]

and popist brigade sounds snotty, sorry, and definitely hyperbole in action there - but even the Lex (!) likes it

I am sorry I didn't understand the sentence. :/

Well, either way. I didn't like the first album either. Though I like Newsom because she gives me things to talk about (as opposed to Cookie Mountain which I neither disliked or liked enough to say a word about), I really dislike listening to her. Talented, but can't stand is OTM. Except for the talented part.

2xpost

Otherwise he's spot-on on Beyonce and Thomas Mapfumo, and as hopeless as the rest of us on parsing TV on the Radio's appeal.

"Supposedly inspired by milestones in Newsom's life, these whimsical pastoral allegories reveal only that her taste for the antique is out of control."

but i disagree and have to ask what is so bad about having out of control taste for anything? i get how it jibes with the opening sentence, but it's a rather conservative position to take. also it probably wouldn't be too difficult to frame beyonce in the same way, but beyonce doesn't get that treatment because she isn't indie?

Oh so like German Romantic?

If we're going to play the faux profound generalization game, he could also talk about metal's connection to American anti-intellectualism.

I think the "New Yorkness" of the Dolls has a lot of resonance of Xgau that many wouldn't share. His feature on their comeback album is the final piece in his collection Is It Still Good To Ya?, he seems to see David Johansen as an avatar of eternal vitality.

"Yurrupean" = pretentious and racially prejudiced, see his ABBA review: "I'm sure their disinclination to sing like Negroes reassures the Europopuli". However, "musically, all Americans are part African".

The Dean of 'Murican Rock Critics indeed.

I didn't listen to the podcast but the idea that metal is "classical music for dummies" (iirc his words, from a Fucking Champs review) (and thus not real rock n roll) is a recurring one in his writing.

Disdain for classical music also a recurring theme.

he could also talk about metal's connection to American anti-intellectualism.

And this is connected ime (he isn't Lester Bangs; he has no love for anti-intellectualism) - the fact that the American lumpenproletariat went for prog and metal, with all its dated fantastical tropes and bombast, as opposed to literate songwriters or pomo ironists or whatever, didn't redeem it, I don't think. (Rush made a killing on the zonked-teen circuit, Ian Anderson was the small-town free-thinker lost in the big city, etc.)

Could it be that he's ultimately a bit of an American exceptionalist asshole who should stop projecting his racist essentialism onto continents he knows jack shit about?

i'd take the dolls albums over the first four ramones albums, easy. and i've got a copy "ramones leave home" that they signed for me at free being records on 2nd ave (right near the gem spa where the dolls posed on their 1st album) that you'd have to pry from my hands. they're both great but the dolls resonate through more dimensions of emotional and humanistic and even conceptual space.

wait are we calling xgau racist because he doesn't like european music because it *doesn't* have that thread of african-descended music running through it? that's next level, man.

That's not what I had in mind specifically (see, for instance, his comments about Hendrix as a 'psychedelic uncle Tom', or, as discussed in another thread, Shakira's 'belly dancer genes'), although the implication that European music is 100% white is pretty fucking bizarre as well and eye-rollingly US-centric.

just a little mind-boggling to hear the guy who turned me on to so many of my favorite black artists being spoken of in those terms, that's all. i wonder sometimes if our racist detectors have become too finely calibrated.

I guess I understand the appeal of the Dolls' Bowery Boys-meets-Chuck Berry schtick to a certain subset of East Coast pseuds. (Why they appealed to anyone outside lower Manhattan remains a mystery to me.) But the Ramones are more focused, and less beholden to the past (despite playing more covers), and their songs are a thousand times better. They moved the music forward in ways the Dolls didn't.

I don't think it's crazy to say that there was a streak of racial essentialism in his writing and that he was also a progressive voice for his time and promoter of music by non-white artists.xp

I'm not saying he should be outright cancelled or whatever, I was just a) taken aback when I found out that he has a history of using, and doubling down on, racist language in his reviews, and b) I hate how – in North America, at least – he gets a free pass for spewing crap about 'Europe' (what does that even mean? what is 'European grandeur'? French grandeur? Albanian grandeur? Sami grandeur? Portuguese grandeur? Maltese grandeur? etc.).

2xp yep, I agree with Sund4r.

The 'a)' should have been inserted before 'I was just', but you get my drift.

Can: Soon Over Babaluma [Spoon, 1996]
A basically instrumental excursion that aficionados rank with the sprawling Tago Mago, this 1974 Kraut-rock opus is to the Miles Davis of the era as acid jazz is to real jazz. It's never pompous, discernibly smart, playful, even goofy. If you give it your all you can make out a few shards of internal logic. But the light tone avoids texture, density, or pain. The jazzy pulse is innocent of swing, funk, or sex. And if it generates any intrinsic interest, as opposed to the conceptual kick of being so singularly European, after half a dozen plays I should have some inkling what that interest is. B-

Being from Europe, what a concept!

He missed a chance to argue that the music is good thanks to Damo Suzuki's echt-Japanese DNA.

His take on Nina Simone's Baltimore is also a bit o_O: 'a woman who not only avoids coming out with the "bitch" in "Rich Girl" but hobbles the rhythm as well has real problems.'

if you are not saying he should be "outright cancelled," what's the point of constantly recycling the few review out of his millions that push your buttons?

Shooting the shit? And expressing my dislike of his brand?

His snide anti-European piques are legion, though.

k, got it.

(Also answering Alfred's question)

That too. :)

The most clearly I've seen him spell it out:

It never seems to occur to him that, for many of us, metal's classical affinities are the very thing that renders it unlistenable--that as far as we're concerned, the instrumentally dexterous, rhetoric-drenched, and often melodramatic approach to meaning the two musics share is what rock and roll was put on earth to save us from.

https://www.robertchristgau.com/xg/bkrev/walser-cp.php

Where to begin…

if the debarge record is in a special way, xgau is not overrating it

yeah, what? pretty much the only thing I wish I'd listened to him about sooner.

I've always sensed that Xgau's anti-metal stance stems at least in part from his anti-prog stance. Both at their absolute best he'll sort of acknowgdlge begrudgingly, though he's always remained thoroughly suspicious of each. For example, here is his review of "USA," his highest rated King Crimson album, which invokes a lot of the tropes we've just discussed:

Since the nearness of death was good for this band, I figured a posthumous live album might be even better, and though lyrics and vocals are still pompous annoyances, these musical themes (including the off-the-cuff "Asbury Park") are among their best. In Central Park they have no choice but to skip the subtlety and turn it up. The excitement thus generated is more Wagner than Little Richard--this record is a case study in the Europeanness of English heavy metal. But that doesn't mean it's not classic.

Herr Christgau's tendency to conflate Europe and Germany betrays his Teutonic roots, come to think of it.

Master of Puppets [Elektra, 1986]
I feel at a generational disadvantage with this music not because my weary bones can't take its power and speed but because I was born too soon to have my dendrites rerouted by progressive radio. This band's momentum can be pretty impressive, and as with a lot of fast metal (as well as some sludge) they seem to have acceptable political motivations--antiwar, anticonformity, even anticoke, fine. But the revolutionary heroes I envisage aren't male chauvinists too inexperienced to know better; they don't have hair like Samson and pecs like Arnold Schwarzenegger. That's the image Metallica calls up, and I'm no more likely to invoke their strength of my own free will than I am The 1812 Overture's.

You go, Carola, for choosing Here, My Dear.

Yeah, that too - great album, I remember when it wasn't easy to find for a little while.

Btw, just glancing at his best of the last decade list essay, I've got to admit, I'm pretty impressed *and* perplexed that so many decades down the line he still puts the New York Dolls on par with, say, Thelonious Monk as far as his personal favorites go. Like, even if you like the Dolls a lot, that's just two records and if it was between those first two and, say, the first four from the Ramones, I'm still surprised anyone would pick the two Dolls, even if they loved them.

idk, makes sense to me. I think the world of the Dolls, and in their case, their legacy really is that concentrated, and for a pretty logical reason. I think they had it in them to record a third great album in 1975, but they only had a two-record contract and there was no interest in renewing. David Johansen went on to make a great debut solo LP, Johnny formed the Heartbreakers, etc...I would only pick one rather than both, but it's not an easy call. The first gets the edge for the songs, but the second has an edge for other reasons as well.

if the debarge record is in a special way, xgau is not overrating it

Yeah, I didn't really know it before so I'll give it time. I like it, but it probably wasn't a great idea to approach it with lofty expectations.

No doubt Christgau can come across as an opinionated asshole in his writing. I guess that's part of his brand. Unfortunately that kind of brand for a writer is very out of fashion these days. Or at least it has a way of provoking social media pile-ons in a way that didn't exist way back when. Being intentionally provocative hasn't aged well, in the era of the 24-hour online outrage cycle. He was ahead of his time in championing underrated black musical styles and calling out (predominantly white) rock critics for being provincial about not taking them seriously, and also made an effort to nurture and provide space for up and coming black critics at the Voice, but he also could use provocative racial terms in a way that provokes a lot of cringe today (and probably did to some extent even back then). He contains multitudes.

I haven't really listened to him talk before. I think he actually comes across better here than he often does in his writing. Maybe having Carola there softened him a bit, but he sounds fairly self-deprecating. He admits that he has a personal allergy to the European classical tradition, which also makes metal mostly a blind spot for him. I have no problem with that. I don't think critics should strive to be objective judges of all music, because it's impossible and kind of boring. I think sometimes his writing is too condensed and somehow a bit superficial, like he is sketching out the bones of an argument without really filling in enough of the sinew that should hold it together, and he's a bit too reliant on the sort of wise-guy dismissal of other views, but his intelligence really shines through when you listen to him in conversation. I think part of his style as a critic is importing high-brow terms and concepts from academic criticism to the rock sphere, so perhaps for him using street-level insults and moaning about "Yurrup" is a way to balance that out and show he's not an egghead.

metallica's pecs weren't that impressive

here is his review of "USA," his highest rated King Crimson album, which invokes a lot of the tropes we've just discussed

He actually rated Red even higher, with an A-. (Maybe the only prog album he rated that high too.)

I don't think critics should strive to be objective judges of all music, because it's impossible and kind of boring.

Agree. The problem for me is that Christgau-worship among critics as a class leads to the kind of music Christgau likes ("smart" rock with "acceptable political motivations") becoming the kind of music rock critics like. His personal biases became institutional biases, basically.

I still sigh when I think of Here, My Dear being in every delete bin in the early '80s for $1.99 and me not buying it. I liked other Marvin Gaye albums at that point well enough that my inaction baffles me.

Not aimed at anyone specifically, but agree with Thus Sang Freud above. He's written a few million words...a lot, anyway. I've written a tenth of 1% of that and routinely come across something from years ago that makes me wince.

I think part of his style as a critic is importing high-brow terms and concepts from academic criticism to the rock sphere, so perhaps for him using street-level insults and moaning about "Yurrup" is a way to balance that out and show he's not an egghead.

Replace 'Yurrup' with another slurred continent, and see how that sounds.

Look, I simply have a hard time respecting a critic who repeatedly and consistently insults me because I was born on the wrong side of the Atlantic. Surely that's an understandable position? I also have a hard time with, say, French critics who automatically dismiss anything that comes out of the US (although I can't recall the last time I actually came across such a case).

I haven't really listened to him talk before. I think he actually comes across better here than he often does in his writing. Maybe having Carola there softened him a bit, but he sounds fairly self-deprecating.

I think this is pretty common with critics, and it's probably a reflection of how often people in general behave better when they're talking to someone (especially in-person but even on the phone). I'm sure that applies to everyone here, or at least I would hope.

He deals explicitly with this topic (not with metal) in his 2002 EMP Pop Conference presentation, "U.S. and Them: Are American Pop (and Semi-Pop) Still Exceptional? And by the Way, Does That Make Them Better?", included in his book.

French critics who automatically dismiss anything that comes out of the US (although I can't recall the last time I actually came across such a case)

Surprised by this. I'm not familiar with French music criticism, but isn't French culture famously more respective and appreciative of American culture than Americans? Not everything obviously, but stuff like jazz to classic Hollywood to even comic books?

It's a love-hate relationship. Or perhaps it's fairer to say that it's not the same people.

To be clear, the snooty knee-jerk anti-Americans have been on the wave for several decades now.

*wane

I find Joe Levy funny in these last two editions. He's pretty sly at deflating Christgau--like the way he pushes back on the idea that he hates What's Going On, and then goes on to pretty much say exactly that. (I actually agree with Christgau on the album: three amazing songs plus stuff I can't remember.)

I guess I've just never quite understood the Dolls as much more than a concept, let alone as a band anyone would say is vying to be their absolute favorite. Those albums are good, I just don't think they're *that* good. Maybe you had to be there.

Funny, this is exactly what I would say about the Ramones! (I’m not a huge Dolls fan, but I would take them over the Ramones any day.)

To be clear, the snooty knee-jerk anti-Americans have been on the wave for several decades now.

Interesting. My first time in Paris was during the tail end of the (second) Bush years, and I was surprised how many Parisians my age didn't seem anti-American at all. Almost to a fault - McDonald's seemed depressingly popular - but I remember they were all enthusiastically planning to visit L.A. or NYC or just came back from there, and that stuck out after putting up with "freedom fry" twits in America. I think soon after I saw a new film (Assayas's Summer Hours?) where they mention how the "kids" these days were all into American things. Maybe it's a generational thing?

Ah now I see the "wane" correction, I thought it was on the upswing!

I love What's Going On, as much as I love Sgt. Pepper. Neither would be among my top 3 albums of their respective years, but they're still great albums in my book. The "3 songs + filler" is the most common knock on What's Going On but I didn't learn to hear past that when I stopped trying to judge it by the individual parts. It's hard to explain, but it's like a book where you have scenes or chapters that don't feel remarkable out of context, but without them, the book isn't a masterpiece. Like you need to read those to get the whole thing. The album works brilliantly for me as a stream-of-consciousness immersion into a stoned, traumatized mind, but that's only if I hear it all - that narrative doesn't actually reveal itself without swimming through the entire first side.

*hear past that until I stopped trying to judge it by the individual parts

Oh, I get that, it's just a bore for me after the three sinles.

*singles

The Paula Deen of American Rock Critics TM