Michael Jackson: Classic or Dud?

as an aside. i love it, when, in 'earth song', he suddenly shouts 'what about the elephants!?', as though he just remembered about the elephants. he's really upset about the environment and that, and then, all of a sudden, there's the elephants, and its like the final straw...

I would hate to live in your parallel universe of horrifically-dated Michael Jackson songs. Personally, I'm happy here in my world surrounded by "Rock With You", "Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough", "She's Out Of My Life", "Billie Jean", "Wanna be Startin' Somethin'", "Human Nature", "The Way You Make Me Feel", "Smooth Criminal", "Liberian Girl", "Leave Me Alone", "Dirty Diana", "Jam", "Remember The Time", "Who Is It?", "Why You Wanna Trip On Me?", "Scream", and "You Are Not Alone". I'm also glad that, in my world, an artist doesn't have to have a good song out right now to be considered a classic.

The solo stuff... Oh my god. So many great songs. He's certainly one of the few artists who can claim to have touched that many people emotionally.

I can almost see how "Dirty Diana" could be considered embarassing, but "Jam" is pure rockin' fun and "Scream" may be simplistic sermonizing but DAMN does it make me want to shake my booty.

I will not rise to the obvious Janet-fan baiting. :)

Always a source of fun, MJ. Often of late that fun has not been musical but I would probably enjoy his greatest hits a lot more than I'd guess just reading the tracklist. Just for "Thriller" though he'd be a classic.

Jarvis v Jackson: a heterosexual harrassing a homosexual in public and getting lots of right on people's applause for it. Something a little worrying there, no?

For the social, aesthetic, philosophical, satirical implications of the Man, the Myth: classic.

Classic for that. Classic for Billie Jean. Classic for being bonkers.

And, for Nick's information, "right-on" people like myself were on Jarvis's side because Jackson, that night, was arrogant and offensive in his presentation of himself as a godlike figure, and of course his proximity to young children would always have seemed creepy anyway. But I'd concur with Tom in that large parts of MJ's back catalogue are classic, as is the man and the myth as a whole, though a lot of the "Dangerous" era now sounds like really embarrassing clock-chasing.

Jarvis hardly confirms to the stereotypical check-shirted homo- baiting jock image does he? It was boorish behaviour, but I'm sure that something other than sex-hatred was on his mind when he stormed the stage. Quite what was, I'm not sure, other than a dislike of bombast.

Jackson is a shining example of how pop performers can extend this fakeness into the realm of their own identities. Seen in this light, the incident was a culture clash between UK and US values on the question of the mutability of identity. The US, a nation of immigrants and self-made people, has always been more Nietzschean about this.

It was also, ironically, a man who lived in a monarchy attacking a citizen of a revolutionary republic because he'd been enough of an upstart to grab the title 'king' for himself, rather than leave it to Prince Charles or whoever.

If we attacked every performer who's ever styled himself 'Earl' or 'Duke' or 'King' we'd end up harrassing half the black jazz and pop greats.

Regarding Nick's allegations that it had something to do with homophobia, I believe you're projecting your own preconceptions onto this episode.

Classic for the past music, but now I hate him with the burning fury of a supernova.

The next King Of Britain says stuff like 'Modern architecture is a hideous carbunkle' and 'Genetic engineering is an affront to the Creator'.The American King Of Pop builds Neverland and performs genetic experiments on monkeys and himself while grabbing his crotch and singing about 'keeping it in the closet'.

I know who gets my vote, er, sorry, constitutional allegiance.

Musically, my radio-drenched youth would have been poorer without him. But frankly, over the long term I think Janet ended up kicking his butt.

I Want You Back
A.B.C.
The Love You Save
I'll Be There
I Wanna Be Where You Are
We Got a Good Thing Goin'
Shoo Be Do Be Do Da Day
Shake Your Body (Down to the Ground)
Don't Stop Til You Get Enough
Rock With You
Off the Wall
Workin' Day and Night
Billie Jean
Wanna Be Startin' Something
P.Y.T.
Thrilller
Bad
The Way You Make Me Feel

(80:54 - chronological, It was difficult to cut "Dancing Machine" since it really shows the midpoint of his voice change. I know there are a lot of great latter day tracks missing here that would be good on a MJ solo stuff only disc).

HIStory and Dangerous are ridiculously underrated. Sure, they're a big departure from Off The Wall and Thriller, but they sounded distinctive and considerably more courageous than a lot of other pop pap out at the time. Forget Black Or White or the execrable Childhood, listen to Jam, She Drives Me Wild, In The Closet, Who Is It, Scream, They Don't Care About Us, Money, Tabloid Junkie, 2Bad, HIStory, even the remix album had high-calibre tracks like Morphine and Ghosts, and none of these sounded remotely like anything else on pop radio at the time. I happen to think they sounded mighty funky.

The most recent album is a total dud though, mostly because (apart from 2000 Watts) it's full of songs that sound like they really really care about being hits, and really really want to sound like all the other songs that have been hits recently. For the first time ever it is Michael Jackson trying desperately to sound like something other than himself, and it fails miserably.

Almost everything else is CLASSIC, CLASSIC, CLASSIC.

Even Off The Wall and Thriller are just PRETTY GOOD despite getting the collective nod from most sides as being the over-exposed weirdo's golden era.

But he's a hands-down classic for his legacy as a freakshow media juggernaut alone, ongoing as it is into it's fourth goddam decade!

Whoever saw such a public spectacle than this ageing, trans-racial, trans-gendered, trans-humanist effigy - shyly, yet boldly parading himself through the media hoisted upon his own shoulders?!?

well, you step into a thread annoucing with the clarity of the addled that MJ is a talented dud and imply that admirers are bedazzled by his celebrity – I'm sorry your feet are hurt from getting stepped on

I quite like it when others prove my point, so please, no need to apologize.

this is like watching a tetherball match where one dude wraps the ball around the pole every time and the other guy curiously insists he's the winner

paedophile

I would think my opinions about MJ are well known around here but if not... he's got some good tunes up through Off the Wall, p much everything after that I have no interest in. I'm not impressed/engaged by his singing style, tics or mannerisms, the lyrical subject matter, the melodies, the production or really anything at all, and so much of it is over-exposed to the point that I actively never want to hear it again. Like Star Wars, over the course of my lifetime my reaction has progressed from infatuation to active loathing, due in no small part to the religious fervor surrounding his celebrity and the constant drumbeat of "YOU MUST LIKE THIS" from all corners. But setting that circus aside and focusing on the material itself, imo his discography is middling - some early on highs (ABC, I Want You Back, Dancing Machine, I Want to Rock With You, etc.) followed by a preponderance of ridiculous, silly and depressing lows, and it's maybe telling that the majority of stuff I do like all predates his assuming full control of his music; the quality of the input from collaborators like the Motown machine and Quincy Jones is undeniable, I have no reservations about attributing a lot of the things I like in MJ's music to people other than MJ. Generally I don't find his singing engaging, esp not as he got older and it primarily alternated between scat-exclamatory-nonsense and his paper-thin tenor. Post-QJ I don't care for his taste in drum and synth sounds at all, everything way too thin and glossy. And most of the time I don't care at all what he's singing about, about his trials and tribulations as a tortured man-boy fantasist just dgaf.

Οὖτις otm

http://i626.photobucket.com/albums/tt349/esmeralda84_2009/Gif%20Bad%20Video/25iais6.gif

probably mentioned upthread but John Jeremiah Sullivan's MJ essay is great
http://www.gq.com/story/michael-jackson-john-jeremiah-sullivan-tribute

Ok, for one thing

The fact that critical institutions have canonized him in the wake of poptimism's Orwellian victory

Lol no. Off the Wall and Thriller, at least, have been in the canon since well before I started reading music criticism in the mid-90s.

Of course taste and all but I guess someone who doesn't find any joy and pleasure in anything he did, at least, from "I want you back" to "lady in my Life" simply doesn't enjoy the same things in music as I do.

nobody has to like anything obv but the idea that anybody who likes...you know...music recorded in recording studios that isn't Estrus/In the Red style live-to-tape stuff...wouldn't find Thriller absolutely breathtaking strictly from an engineering standpoint...is pretty weird

it's a lot like Steely Dan or Fleetwood Mac. you ain't gotta like it, but if that doesn't sound amazing to you, I'm a little curious about your aesthetic priorities, because from a mixing standpoint alone, Thriller is a total masterpiece. the chord walkdown after the chorus of "Human Nature," sure that's fucking breathtaking and there's a reason jazz acts started covering it immediately as soon as the album hit the streets, but who knows, maybe Quincy Jones at the peak of his game isn't your thing. but the production on Thriller? gtfo w/any take other than "of course that's great"

love the demo recording of "Human Nature" by Steve Porcaro. imagining Quincy Jones listening to it for the first time and getting the lightbulb over his head.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWdy5i_44sQ

the walkdown with the alternating major and minor 7ths is missing from the porcaro demo, which is kind of shocking, because for me & for people I've talked to about it that's the hallelujah moment, just so lush

Quincy Jones' whole crew were fusion guys, not just Toto but Louis Johnson, Ndugu Chancler, Greg Philliganes. That's one reason why Thriller plays like the pure-pop realization of Earth Wind & Fire's late 70s run. I doubt Maurice White ever got $800,000 and 10 months of studio time to make a record. He didn't have Bruce Swedien, either.

That's not to take away anything from those great EWF records or suggest they're anything less than fully realized, btw.

oh yeah but I totally hear you. EWF is one of my favorite bands of all time and their records are perfect, but Bruce Swedien breathes rare air. His work with Rufus, some of the best-sounding music anywhere ever. put that guy on an EWF record and something magic would happen, I don't doubt.

nobody has to like anything obv but the idea that anybody who likes...you know...music recorded in recording studios that isn't Estrus/In the Red style live-to-tape stuff...wouldn't find Thriller absolutely breathtaking strictly from an engineering standpoint...is pretty weird

Whatever Mr. I-Hate-The-Beach-Boys. I could say the same thing to you about Pet Sounds. We just prefer different emotionally crippled manchild schticks.

I am a massive fan of both the Beach Boys and Michael Jackson, for whatever it's worth.

And I don't begrudge anyone for their personal revulsion towards MJ given what we know or have reason to suspect about the man. But I also don't think it has fuck-all to do with the music itself. Lyrics are another matter, probably.

some people dont like slick music, big deal. beach boys / pet sounds is total Estrus style in-the-red production, come on now

e just prefer different...schticks

I think I've explained several times that there's something timbrally going on in the BB harmonies that has always, since childhood, made me feel physically ill, so no, this isn't about giving a fuck about any "narratives." it's just about sound. (I also don't like the songs the Beach Boys write, lyrically or musically, so I struggle to listen to the production afforded to the songs I don't like, lyrics I don't like, and the weird dog's-ear thing that happens when they do the soaring-sliding thing and I always feel like I'm going to vomit)

i appreciate the Beach Boys but i'm kinda the same way. and ugh i'm a giant Cubs fan but JCLC do you remember the song i believe the BB remade as a Cubs jingle? they'd play it on every WGN radio broadcast and it made me want to die.

Barbara Ann...I think that was the one they redid.

beach boys prolly diddled waayy more kids than MJ

And I don't begrudge anyone for their personal revulsion towards MJ given what we know or have reason to suspect about the man. But I also don't think it has fuck-all to do with the music itself

Would you say the same thing about Gary Glitter?

so I struggle to listen to the production afforded to the songs I don't like, lyrics I don't like, and the weird dog's-ear thing that happens when they do the soaring-sliding thing and I always feel like I'm going to vomit
)
cool, we reach. you *do* get why I don't care about post-OTW MJ after all (although swap out "soaring-sliding thing" for "bowchicka-ah-jamawnit-cha")

beach boys prolly diddled waayy more kids than MJ

this is a weird thing to say but I guess it hinges on how you define "kids"

lol at ppl pretending that not enjoying anything mj did after off the wall is somehow an iconoclastic opinion

or the fiction that liking beyoncé is now a requirement under the new authoritarian state of music criticism. i guess getting ppl like this is the inevitable side effect of having so many polls based on the 'acclaimedmusic' trashheap

#allgenresmatter

Please explain, dyl.

here's my rambling take on Michael in the disco era, looking his underrated (imo) work leading up to Thriller plus a peek at the pre-MTV music video "scene"

https://medium.com/@markcoleman57/dancing-with-michael-jackson-remembering-music-video-before-mtv-a0c18b063581"> https://medium.com/@markcoleman57/dancing-with-michael-jackson-remembering-music-video-before-mtv-a0c18b063581

Uhhhhhh...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e62M-5-7ajY

Classic.

On his worst single.

love it. your piece i mean.

was checking out xcape, the posthumous album, this apparently was adapted from an 83 demo of paul anka song, just beautiful

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG08ukJPtR8

Lowkey have been loving that since it came out

that song was getting played constantly when it was "finished" and it was always a joy to hear. I think they did a great job making it sound both modern and like one of those later Jacksons hits

rest of the album was kinda weird though, pretty 'good' in a sense but there's definitely something going on with the vocals that's a bit creepy

The breakdown with the "Working Day & Night" percussion gets me in the gut every time

i'm pretty impressed with this so far (only up to "place with no name" which is great)

pretty 'good' in a sense but there's definitely something going on with the vocals that's a bit creepy

not picking up on this, you thinking too much autotune?

I wish I could wipe JT's glassy-eyed smirk from the video, but it's a jam

Ditto; it's an extremely well edited video aside from including JT

I wish I could wipe JT's glassy-eyed smirk from the video, but it's a jam

― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, February 14, 2023 9:26 AM (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglinkI wish I could wipe JT's glassy-eyed smirk from the video, but it's a jam

― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, February 14, 2023 9:26 AM (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

on the plus side, when i was just listening to it i honestly couldn't tell he was on the song

not picking up on this, you thinking too much autotune?

it's not all the tracks but there are a few that feel so cut and paste where you can tell it was assembled from a bunch of different takes, which I think is kind of odd given his vocal approach. clearly they wanted all those MJ signature vocal tics but they all sound like they're pulled from different recordings, so it has a real stuttered flow to it. and yeah the autotune is a bit much in spots, like "Slave to the Rhythm" right now kinda sounds like an AI bot during the verses. admittedly this is just kind of how pop music is made nowadays, so maybe it's just knowing MJ was dead when it came out really that makes the necromancy apparent. it's actually a bit uncomfortable knowing it's probably better than an album he would've made while he was still alive.

ah gotcha

what went wrong after 1995? were the accusations proved on trial? who were mj enemies?

wonder who transcribed the lyrics to billie jean home demo

https://i.imgur.com/0FO8ae5.png

is there anywhere you can hear him directing his siblings singing the choir to billie jean as he's writing it? or is that just a story I read somewhere

on another note can't believe "Chicago" is one of his most popular songs now? maybe a tiktok thing

I happened upon Nelson George's Thriller: 40 the other night: while I certainly think a close examination of how the music is made, the context in which it occurred, should be the paramount rationale, I was struck that no mention was made of the fact that even then Jackson's megalomania was ascending; his obsession with being the biggest and the best deserves to be interrogated, in light of History in 1995, where his fixation on his near deification becomes particularly demented. You don't have to talk about his paedophilia or his efforts to erase his physical connection to his heritage to acknowledge that he was deeply disturbed.

the story that sticks out is after Thriller sets a record by selling something like 80 million copies, he tells everyone he wants Bad to sell 160 million. which apparently he was serious about! its like if the night after Wilt scored 100 points he went out and said "I'm gonna score 200 in the next one"