― alex in nyc, Tuesday, 24 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
I can almost see how "Dirty Diana" could be considered embarassing, but "Jam" is pure rockin' fun and "Scream" may be simplistic sermonizing but DAMN does it make me want to shake my booty.
I will not rise to the obvious Janet-fan baiting. :)
― Dan Perry, Tuesday, 24 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
Always a source of fun, MJ. Often of late that fun has not been musical but I would probably enjoy his greatest hits a lot more than I'd guess just reading the tracklist. Just for "Thriller" though he'd be a classic.
― Tom, Tuesday, 24 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
― Mark, Tuesday, 24 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
Jarvis v Jackson: a heterosexual harrassing a homosexual in public and getting lots of right on people's applause for it. Something a little worrying there, no?
― Momus, Wednesday, 25 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
― Tom, Wednesday, 25 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
For the social, aesthetic, philosophical, satirical implications of the Man, the Myth: classic.
― Omar, Wednesday, 25 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
Classic for that. Classic for Billie Jean. Classic for being bonkers.
― Dr. C, Wednesday, 25 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
And, for Nick's information, "right-on" people like myself were on Jarvis's side because Jackson, that night, was arrogant and offensive in his presentation of himself as a godlike figure, and of course his proximity to young children would always have seemed creepy anyway. But I'd concur with Tom in that large parts of MJ's back catalogue are classic, as is the man and the myth as a whole, though a lot of the "Dangerous" era now sounds like really embarrassing clock-chasing.
― Robin Carmody, Wednesday, 25 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
Jarvis hardly confirms to the stereotypical check-shirted homo- baiting jock image does he? It was boorish behaviour, but I'm sure that something other than sex-hatred was on his mind when he stormed the stage. Quite what was, I'm not sure, other than a dislike of bombast.
― Peter, Wednesday, 25 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
Jackson is a shining example of how pop performers can extend this fakeness into the realm of their own identities. Seen in this light, the incident was a culture clash between UK and US values on the question of the mutability of identity. The US, a nation of immigrants and self-made people, has always been more Nietzschean about this.
It was also, ironically, a man who lived in a monarchy attacking a citizen of a revolutionary republic because he'd been enough of an upstart to grab the title 'king' for himself, rather than leave it to Prince Charles or whoever.
If we attacked every performer who's ever styled himself 'Earl' or 'Duke' or 'King' we'd end up harrassing half the black jazz and pop greats.
Regarding Nick's allegations that it had something to do with homophobia, I believe you're projecting your own preconceptions onto this episode.
― alex in nyc, Wednesday, 25 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
Classic for the past music, but now I hate him with the burning fury of a supernova.
― Dan Perry, Wednesday, 25 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
The next King Of Britain says stuff like 'Modern architecture is a hideous carbunkle' and 'Genetic engineering is an affront to the Creator'.The American King Of Pop builds Neverland and performs genetic experiments on monkeys and himself while grabbing his crotch and singing about 'keeping it in the closet'.
I know who gets my vote, er, sorry, constitutional allegiance.
Musically, my radio-drenched youth would have been poorer without him. But frankly, over the long term I think Janet ended up kicking his butt.
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 25 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
― the pinefox, Thursday, 26 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
― jane r, Tuesday, 1 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
― ethan, Tuesday, 1 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
― Kylie, Saturday, 17 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― sansselorus, Wednesday, 21 August 2002 17:19 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Tim (Tim), Thursday, 22 August 2002 10:13 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Josie, Monday, 28 October 2002 06:46 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Dan I., Monday, 28 October 2002 08:18 (twenty-one years ago) link
I Want You BackA.B.C.The Love You SaveI'll Be ThereI Wanna Be Where You AreWe Got a Good Thing Goin'Shoo Be Do Be Do Da DayShake Your Body (Down to the Ground)Don't Stop Til You Get EnoughRock With YouOff the WallWorkin' Day and NightBillie JeanWanna Be Startin' SomethingP.Y.T.ThrilllerBadThe Way You Make Me Feel
(80:54 - chronological, It was difficult to cut "Dancing Machine" since it really shows the midpoint of his voice change. I know there are a lot of great latter day tracks missing here that would be good on a MJ solo stuff only disc).
― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Friday, 7 November 2003 22:02 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 7 November 2003 22:38 (twenty years ago) link
― Shaun (shaun), Friday, 7 November 2003 22:39 (twenty years ago) link
― robin (robin), Friday, 7 November 2003 22:45 (twenty years ago) link
― Mr. Snrub, Saturday, 8 November 2003 04:39 (twenty years ago) link
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 8 November 2003 04:51 (twenty years ago) link
― stevem (blueski), Saturday, 8 November 2003 13:25 (twenty years ago) link
HIStory and Dangerous are ridiculously underrated. Sure, they're a big departure from Off The Wall and Thriller, but they sounded distinctive and considerably more courageous than a lot of other pop pap out at the time. Forget Black Or White or the execrable Childhood, listen to Jam, She Drives Me Wild, In The Closet, Who Is It, Scream, They Don't Care About Us, Money, Tabloid Junkie, 2Bad, HIStory, even the remix album had high-calibre tracks like Morphine and Ghosts, and none of these sounded remotely like anything else on pop radio at the time. I happen to think they sounded mighty funky.
The most recent album is a total dud though, mostly because (apart from 2000 Watts) it's full of songs that sound like they really really care about being hits, and really really want to sound like all the other songs that have been hits recently. For the first time ever it is Michael Jackson trying desperately to sound like something other than himself, and it fails miserably.
Almost everything else is CLASSIC, CLASSIC, CLASSIC.
― syntaxfree, Saturday, 8 November 2003 14:15 (twenty years ago) link
― Brandon Welch (Brandon Welch), Saturday, 8 November 2003 15:26 (twenty years ago) link
― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Sunday, 9 November 2003 01:09 (twenty years ago) link
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 9 November 2003 01:38 (twenty years ago) link
― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Sunday, 9 November 2003 03:51 (twenty years ago) link
Even Off The Wall and Thriller are just PRETTY GOOD despite getting the collective nod from most sides as being the over-exposed weirdo's golden era.
But he's a hands-down classic for his legacy as a freakshow media juggernaut alone, ongoing as it is into it's fourth goddam decade!
Whoever saw such a public spectacle than this ageing, trans-racial, trans-gendered, trans-humanist effigy - shyly, yet boldly parading himself through the media hoisted upon his own shoulders?!?
― Stephen Stockwell (Stephen Stockwell), Sunday, 9 November 2003 09:43 (twenty years ago) link
― Broheems (diamond), Sunday, 9 November 2003 10:11 (twenty years ago) link
IMO it was what you call "watering down" that made it better than other R&B.
― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Sunday, 9 November 2003 11:49 (twenty years ago) link
hey! ageism! and not true for everyone.. alex in nyc is a lot older than that! (yeah?)
― Vic (Vic), Sunday, 9 November 2003 12:17 (twenty years ago) link
And Geir, I don't quite understand your question.
― Stephen Stockwell (Stephen Stockwell), Sunday, 9 November 2003 13:52 (twenty years ago) link
If it's the former, then I don't have much of a view either way, it's not great, but in the spectrum of bad lyrics I think it's insignificant.
If it's the latter, I strongly disagree. I never saw ANYTHING remotely offensive or anti-Semetic about that line - surely it's crystal clear (though it didn't seem to be to the world media) to any person who, er, can read, that it was basically saying "yeah, do whatever the hell you want to me, kick me, call me a kike, I remain unbowed"? The whole controversy was absurd. The fact that he eventually changed the lines (to something stupid like "do me, sue me, kick me, strike me") is even more absurd. He should have stuck to his guns.
― syntaxfree, Sunday, 9 November 2003 15:22 (twenty years ago) link
― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Sunday, 9 November 2003 16:33 (twenty years ago) link
I just turned 36. Michael Jackson is, was, and invariably always will be a deplorably overrated side-show freak. Shun him.
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 9 November 2003 16:43 (twenty years ago) link
via NewsNow this was on the news wire:
The Essential Michael Jackson To Be Releasedhttp://www.undercover.com.au/news/2005/jun05/20050630_michaeljackson.html
Sony-BMG will release the 2CD Michael Jackson compilation, 'The Essential Michael Jackson' on July 15.
― DJ Martian (djmartian), Thursday, 30 June 2005 11:11 (eighteen years ago) link
probably mentioned upthread but John Jeremiah Sullivan's MJ essay is greathttp://www.gq.com/story/michael-jackson-john-jeremiah-sullivan-tribute
― niels, Saturday, 11 March 2017 20:07 (seven years ago) link
Ok, for one thing
The fact that critical institutions have canonized him in the wake of poptimism's Orwellian victory
Lol no. Off the Wall and Thriller, at least, have been in the canon since well before I started reading music criticism in the mid-90s.
― Futuristic Bow Wow (thewufs), Saturday, 11 March 2017 21:25 (seven years ago) link
Of course taste and all but I guess someone who doesn't find any joy and pleasure in anything he did, at least, from "I want you back" to "lady in my Life" simply doesn't enjoy the same things in music as I do.
― AlXTC from Paris, Saturday, 11 March 2017 21:32 (seven years ago) link
nobody has to like anything obv but the idea that anybody who likes...you know...music recorded in recording studios that isn't Estrus/In the Red style live-to-tape stuff...wouldn't find Thriller absolutely breathtaking strictly from an engineering standpoint...is pretty weird
it's a lot like Steely Dan or Fleetwood Mac. you ain't gotta like it, but if that doesn't sound amazing to you, I'm a little curious about your aesthetic priorities, because from a mixing standpoint alone, Thriller is a total masterpiece. the chord walkdown after the chorus of "Human Nature," sure that's fucking breathtaking and there's a reason jazz acts started covering it immediately as soon as the album hit the streets, but who knows, maybe Quincy Jones at the peak of his game isn't your thing. but the production on Thriller? gtfo w/any take other than "of course that's great"
― though the tempest rages, (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Sunday, 12 March 2017 02:25 (seven years ago) link
love the demo recording of "Human Nature" by Steve Porcaro. imagining Quincy Jones listening to it for the first time and getting the lightbulb over his head.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWdy5i_44sQ
― example (crüt), Sunday, 12 March 2017 02:29 (seven years ago) link
the walkdown with the alternating major and minor 7ths is missing from the porcaro demo, which is kind of shocking, because for me & for people I've talked to about it that's the hallelujah moment, just so lush
― though the tempest rages, (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Sunday, 12 March 2017 02:53 (seven years ago) link
Quincy Jones' whole crew were fusion guys, not just Toto but Louis Johnson, Ndugu Chancler, Greg Philliganes. That's one reason why Thriller plays like the pure-pop realization of Earth Wind & Fire's late 70s run. I doubt Maurice White ever got $800,000 and 10 months of studio time to make a record. He didn't have Bruce Swedien, either.
― Futuristic Bow Wow (thewufs), Sunday, 12 March 2017 04:00 (seven years ago) link
That's not to take away anything from those great EWF records or suggest they're anything less than fully realized, btw.
― Futuristic Bow Wow (thewufs), Sunday, 12 March 2017 04:01 (seven years ago) link
oh yeah but I totally hear you. EWF is one of my favorite bands of all time and their records are perfect, but Bruce Swedien breathes rare air. His work with Rufus, some of the best-sounding music anywhere ever. put that guy on an EWF record and something magic would happen, I don't doubt.
― though the tempest rages, (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Sunday, 12 March 2017 04:05 (seven years ago) link
Whatever Mr. I-Hate-The-Beach-Boys. I could say the same thing to you about Pet Sounds. We just prefer different emotionally crippled manchild schticks.
― Οὖτις, Sunday, 12 March 2017 05:09 (seven years ago) link
I am a massive fan of both the Beach Boys and Michael Jackson, for whatever it's worth.
― Futuristic Bow Wow (thewufs), Sunday, 12 March 2017 05:49 (seven years ago) link
And I don't begrudge anyone for their personal revulsion towards MJ given what we know or have reason to suspect about the man. But I also don't think it has fuck-all to do with the music itself. Lyrics are another matter, probably.
― Futuristic Bow Wow (thewufs), Sunday, 12 March 2017 05:55 (seven years ago) link
some people dont like slick music, big deal. beach boys / pet sounds is total Estrus style in-the-red production, come on now
― a but (brimstead), Sunday, 12 March 2017 19:56 (seven years ago) link
e just prefer different...schticks
I think I've explained several times that there's something timbrally going on in the BB harmonies that has always, since childhood, made me feel physically ill, so no, this isn't about giving a fuck about any "narratives." it's just about sound. (I also don't like the songs the Beach Boys write, lyrically or musically, so I struggle to listen to the production afforded to the songs I don't like, lyrics I don't like, and the weird dog's-ear thing that happens when they do the soaring-sliding thing and I always feel like I'm going to vomit)
― though the tempest rages, (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Tuesday, 14 March 2017 03:56 (seven years ago) link
i appreciate the Beach Boys but i'm kinda the same way. and ugh i'm a giant Cubs fan but JCLC do you remember the song i believe the BB remade as a Cubs jingle? they'd play it on every WGN radio broadcast and it made me want to die.
― nomar, Tuesday, 14 March 2017 04:04 (seven years ago) link
Barbara Ann...I think that was the one they redid.
― nomar, Tuesday, 14 March 2017 04:05 (seven years ago) link
beach boys prolly diddled waayy more kids than MJ
― sleepingbag, Tuesday, 14 March 2017 05:04 (seven years ago) link
And I don't begrudge anyone for their personal revulsion towards MJ given what we know or have reason to suspect about the man. But I also don't think it has fuck-all to do with the music itself
Would you say the same thing about Gary Glitter?
― heaven parker (anagram), Tuesday, 14 March 2017 09:56 (seven years ago) link
so I struggle to listen to the production afforded to the songs I don't like, lyrics I don't like, and the weird dog's-ear thing that happens when they do the soaring-sliding thing and I always feel like I'm going to vomit)cool, we reach. you *do* get why I don't care about post-OTW MJ after all (although swap out "soaring-sliding thing" for "bowchicka-ah-jamawnit-cha")
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 14 March 2017 15:19 (seven years ago) link
this is a weird thing to say but I guess it hinges on how you define "kids"
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 14 March 2017 15:20 (seven years ago) link
lol at ppl pretending that not enjoying anything mj did after off the wall is somehow an iconoclastic opinion
― dyl, Tuesday, 14 March 2017 16:45 (seven years ago) link
or the fiction that liking beyoncé is now a requirement under the new authoritarian state of music criticism. i guess getting ppl like this is the inevitable side effect of having so many polls based on the 'acclaimedmusic' trashheap
― dyl, Tuesday, 14 March 2017 16:47 (seven years ago) link
#allgenresmatter
― nomar, Tuesday, 14 March 2017 16:50 (seven years ago) link
Please explain, dyl.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 14 March 2017 17:01 (seven years ago) link
here's my rambling take on Michael in the disco era, looking his underrated (imo) work leading up to Thriller plus a peek at the pre-MTV music video "scene"
https://medium.com/@markcoleman57/dancing-with-michael-jackson-remembering-music-video-before-mtv-a0c18b063581"> https://medium.com/@markcoleman57/dancing-with-michael-jackson-remembering-music-video-before-mtv-a0c18b063581
― Dogshit Critic (m coleman), Friday, 21 April 2017 17:17 (seven years ago) link
Uhhhhhh...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e62M-5-7ajY
― The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Saturday, 10 June 2017 01:37 (six years ago) link
Classic.
― Austin, Sunday, 11 June 2017 01:52 (six years ago) link
On his worst single.
― morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 11 March 2018 02:12 (six years ago) link
love it. your piece i mean.
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Sunday, 11 March 2018 12:30 (six years ago) link
was checking out xcape, the posthumous album, this apparently was adapted from an 83 demo of paul anka song, just beautiful
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG08ukJPtR8
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 14 February 2023 15:12 (one year ago) link
Lowkey have been loving that since it came out
― عباس کیارستمی (Eric H.), Tuesday, 14 February 2023 15:14 (one year ago) link
that song was getting played constantly when it was "finished" and it was always a joy to hear. I think they did a great job making it sound both modern and like one of those later Jacksons hits
rest of the album was kinda weird though, pretty 'good' in a sense but there's definitely something going on with the vocals that's a bit creepy
― frogbs, Tuesday, 14 February 2023 15:18 (one year ago) link
The breakdown with the "Working Day & Night" percussion gets me in the gut every time
― عباس کیارستمی (Eric H.), Tuesday, 14 February 2023 15:21 (one year ago) link
i'm pretty impressed with this so far (only up to "place with no name" which is great)
pretty 'good' in a sense but there's definitely something going on with the vocals that's a bit creepy
not picking up on this, you thinking too much autotune?
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 14 February 2023 15:23 (one year ago) link
I wish I could wipe JT's glassy-eyed smirk from the video, but it's a jam
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 14 February 2023 15:26 (one year ago) link
Ditto; it's an extremely well edited video aside from including JT
― عباس کیارستمی (Eric H.), Tuesday, 14 February 2023 15:29 (one year ago) link
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, February 14, 2023 9:26 AM (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglinkI wish I could wipe JT's glassy-eyed smirk from the video, but it's a jam
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, February 14, 2023 9:26 AM (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
on the plus side, when i was just listening to it i honestly couldn't tell he was on the song
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 14 February 2023 15:36 (one year ago) link
it's not all the tracks but there are a few that feel so cut and paste where you can tell it was assembled from a bunch of different takes, which I think is kind of odd given his vocal approach. clearly they wanted all those MJ signature vocal tics but they all sound like they're pulled from different recordings, so it has a real stuttered flow to it. and yeah the autotune is a bit much in spots, like "Slave to the Rhythm" right now kinda sounds like an AI bot during the verses. admittedly this is just kind of how pop music is made nowadays, so maybe it's just knowing MJ was dead when it came out really that makes the necromancy apparent. it's actually a bit uncomfortable knowing it's probably better than an album he would've made while he was still alive.
― frogbs, Tuesday, 14 February 2023 15:41 (one year ago) link
ah gotcha
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 14 February 2023 15:58 (one year ago) link
what went wrong after 1995? were the accusations proved on trial? who were mj enemies?
― CerebralCaustic, Wednesday, 15 February 2023 16:29 (one year ago) link
wonder who transcribed the lyrics to billie jean home demo
https://i.imgur.com/0FO8ae5.png
is there anywhere you can hear him directing his siblings singing the choir to billie jean as he's writing it? or is that just a story I read somewhere
on another note can't believe "Chicago" is one of his most popular songs now? maybe a tiktok thing
― corrs unplugged, Wednesday, 22 March 2023 08:23 (one year ago) link
I happened upon Nelson George's Thriller: 40 the other night: while I certainly think a close examination of how the music is made, the context in which it occurred, should be the paramount rationale, I was struck that no mention was made of the fact that even then Jackson's megalomania was ascending; his obsession with being the biggest and the best deserves to be interrogated, in light of History in 1995, where his fixation on his near deification becomes particularly demented. You don't have to talk about his paedophilia or his efforts to erase his physical connection to his heritage to acknowledge that he was deeply disturbed.
― veronica moser, Friday, 8 December 2023 15:52 (five months ago) link
the story that sticks out is after Thriller sets a record by selling something like 80 million copies, he tells everyone he wants Bad to sell 160 million. which apparently he was serious about! its like if the night after Wilt scored 100 points he went out and said "I'm gonna score 200 in the next one"
― frogbs, Friday, 8 December 2023 16:00 (five months ago) link