Loaded vs. American Beauty

What in the world ever happened to sweet Jane

both released late 1970

American Beauty is a much better album than Loaded imo, but then again, I was really surprised to see the outpouring of love for Loaded on its thread; the performances on Loaded are to me the worst realizations of those songs, most of the stuff I like about the Velvets is missing from that record. (Lou Reed's self-titled solo album >>> Loaded, for me.) I wouldn't agree that American Beauty doesn't sound like much else the Dead did; it's in the vein of Workingman's Dead, I think, just more electrified.

^co-sign, all of it.

Lou Reed's self-titled solo album >>> Loaded, for me
dang that's some serious challops!
imo both of these are great, but i'd have to go w/ Loaded.

I just can not get into Loaded at all.

xxpost
yeah - i was just thinking that too about Workingman's Dead. Anyway - both albums are freak-out/epic-free records from epic freakout bands.

Both were once called The Warlocks.
I like all the little parallels between the Velvets and the Dead.

they played together a coupla times in 1969. one show was a triple bill with the fugs!

wish i could vote for American Beauty a hundred times in this poll.

Loaded easy, even though it's only either my 3rd (maybe 4th) favorite VU album; up against Workingman's Dead (the only album by the Dead I've ever come close to loving) would be a lot harder.

I guess I've never heard Lou's debut, so I can't co-sign on that opinion. Everything else he said, though, I agree.

totally thought this was about the movie american beauty at first

IMO it's the worst VU album vs. the best Dead album.

if anything, lou's first solo record is drifting even further away from the VU sound (even though a lot of the songs originated with the band). it's closer to elton john than the velvet underground. it's ok, but better than Loaded? Nah.

by that logic, the VU xp

Dead STUDIO album, anyway.

Lou Reed's self-titled solo album >>> Loaded, for me.

man you are bonkers today. big fan of those Rick Wakeman solos eh

let's just note for the record here that J0hn is advancing the argument that STEVE HOWE was a better sideman for Lou than Doug Yule

I mean okay, Wild Child is great, but those versions of I Can't Stand It, Lisa Says, and Ocean are total crap. Ride Into the Sun doesn't fare quite as badly but still...

it's worse, he's saying STEVE HOWE was a better sideman than Sterling Morrison

xps eh it's possible! (never heard the lou reed solo album in question)

i just learned that all the piano work on the ziggy stardust era bowie tracks (incl "changes" etc) is... rick wakeman

let's just note for the record here that J0hn is advancing the argument that STEVE HOWE was a better sideman for Lou than Doug Yule

Conan O'Brian's masturbating bear would be a better sideman for Lou Reed than Doug Yule

what can I say besides "I hate me some Doug Yule"

Wakeman much better suited to Bowie than Lou imho

xp

http://www.loureed.com/new/news/loupicts/misc/lou_doug_moe.jpg

Bowie is all about the technique and the frills n trills. Lou is more about simplicity and narrative.

I dunno what the Dead are about, being fat and lazy probably

xp

let's be honest with ourselves, however much we prefer the Velvets there's not a single member of Yes who isn't a better musician than Yule, Morrison & Tucker all rolled into one

Conan O'Brian's masturbating bear would be a better sideman for Lou Reed than Doug Yule

I just can't abide the implication that the Velvets' third album (to say nothing of Loaded) is crap. really. you have no time for Candy Says. Or Beginning to See the Light. or What Goes On. what is wrong with you man.

"American Beauty" but daaaaam, Yule's playing on "Ocean" on Live 1969 is faaaar out, man.

let's be honest with ourselves, however much we prefer the Velvets there's not a single member of Yes who isn't a better musician than Yule, Morrison & Tucker all rolled into one

okay sure, but you say that Loaded is everything you DIDN'T want the Velvets to be and then turn around and praise an album that contains EVEN EXPONENTIALLY LESS of what made the Velvets' great! Like if you hate the session-man-classic-rock vibe of Loaded, what the hell is there on Lou Reed's s/t that isn't that very same vibex1000000??

shakey otm

^^^^^

its funny that loaded used to be one of my big dropping acid in the summertime albums when i was a kid. it still sounds summery to me when i hear it now!

i have mix tapes from back then that go something like: sweet jane/ripple/husker du/more vu/more dead/more husker du/etc.

Loaded. I'm not much of a Deadhead. I would probably go with the worst VU over the best Dead LP as a matter of fact, unless you include Squeeze. The only Dead joints I've ever been able to really warm up to were Anthem of the Sun, Live Dead, and the 1st one. They really sound as though they were "searching for the sound" [to use Phil Lesh's phrase] on those, as opposed to just being sorta noodly.

I'd also like to say I prefer Loaded to Lou's 1st solo effort because everything on there is so watered-down sounding. THis may be due to the use of session musicians instead of an actual band like VU was [whether Lou wanted to admit it circa Loaded or not]. I wonder if Lou wrote charts for Howe and co. ;-)

let's be honest with ourselves, however much we prefer the Velvets there's not a single member of Yes who isn't a better musician than Yule, Morrison & Tucker all rolled into one

o no u dint

i think he's just trolling at this point

eh it's pretty obvious where that's coming from and I wouldn't really argue it - Yes are all incredibly versatile and precise in a way none of the Velvets' are. those dudes could pretty much play anything. they just had shittier ideas than the Velvets.

let's just note for the record here that J0hn is advancing the argument that STEVE HOWE was a better sideman for Lou than Doug Yule

That's not what he said (at least initially), although why couldn't you argue that Howe was a better match? I've no problem writing that Fernando Saunders was a better sideman for Lou than John Cale if by "better" I mean "has made significantly more music -- sometimes music as good as -- with Saunders."

As the guy frequently cited as the standard bearer for studio pop, I've no problem admitting I like Loaded least of the four Velvet studio records and Lou (and Cale, and Moe) has recorded better solo albums.

although why couldn't you argue that Howe was a better match

oh you could argue it, I just think you would be wrong

"The only Dead joints I've ever been able to really warm up to were Anthem of the Sun, Live Dead, and the 1st one. They really sound as though they were "searching for the sound" [to use Phil Lesh's phrase] on those, as opposed to just being sorta noodly."

you should try more albums. they really achieved something wonderful on american beauty and workingman's dead. none of their later studio albums are really "noodly". they are all about songs. good songs!

(and by later, i mean later than the ones you mentioned. i would throw europe 72 in there too, just cuz the songs are so great.)

'Wake of The Flood' might even be their best batch of songs!

I just can't abide the implication that the Velvets' third album (to say nothing of Loaded) is crap. really. you have no time for Candy Says. Or Beginning to See the Light. or What Goes On. what is wrong with you man.

naw I can get with the 3rd one OK although it kind of puts me to sleep. The songs are good (a lot of songs on Loaded are good too). But the sensibility that comes into the band with Yule, that warm-milk evenhanded stuff - it kinda puts me to sleep on the 3rd one to be honest, and by the time of Loaded it's like "hey, how can we make these songs as uninteresting as possible?" the solo album on the other hand - Howe plays great on it, Wakeman too, if I'm going to listen to laid-back versions of those songs then the guys playing 'em on the self-titled are the people I'd rather hear playing it

basically for me my Loaded animosity boils down to "I love the shit outta 'Sweet Jane' and think the version on Loaded is an insult to one of my favorite songs of all time"- even if it didn't, though, if I were just voting for the sheet music, I think the songs on American Beauty are probably better candidate-for-candidate than Loaded. American Beauty is just unbelievably strong.

Here we part company. I wasn't around in '68 or '69, but playing the eponymous album after absorbing its predecessors' impact must have been just as harrowing. I can't think of a single track from this time with "What Goes On"'s hard, endless rhythmic strum or the use of space in "Some Kinda Love" and "Candy Says." Maybe The Band came closest to integrating gospel and folk like the Velvets did in "I'm Set Free," but I haven't heard it. The album's only dud is the one track in which they try to repeat the hijinks of the Cale albums ("Murder Mystery").

^^^what he said

What Goes On is proto-krautrock, it doesn't quite have the motorik beat but the rhythm has that sense of constant forward motion

Is the Lou Reed s/t worth checking out? I actually wouldn't mind hearing Howe and Wakeman on VU-style songs.

(Hm, I never thought of the s/t VU album as being as innovative as you're claiming but counter-examples don't spring to mind TBH. Interesting. Will think about this.)

it's pretty shitty imho, barring a couple tracks (I mentioned upthread that Wild Child is the standout)

I agree that it's proto-Krautrock, the thing is I'm kinda not Mr. Krautrock (though I gotta admit there was one winter/spring when the 3rd album version What Goes On was completely blowing my mind at least once a week). And I love the rhythms in "Some Kinda Love" for sure. But I'm a White Light/White Heat dude. I like my Velvets harsh. Lou solo I think just does the laid-back stuff better, and to much greater effect - I would rather hear his gentle songs played by, yeah, dudes like Steve Howe & Rick Wakeman. I prefer Lou Reed & A Cast of Musos to most Velvets, to be honest - like, the Saunders/Quine band, that right there is some of the most enjoyable stuff he ever made - even when the tunes aren't there (as imo they often aren't), those guys keep me listening. Whereas, like, you know how everybody loves "Pale Blue Eyes"? I have always kinda hated "Pale Blue Eyes." I could dig it if there were something going on besides Lou getting to fabbo punchlines like "down for you is up," but there isn't.

Sundar I'd guess you'd enjoy the self-titled like I do; I was unaware that there was any animosity toward it.

(also, I'm not trolling, really - it's just that for about three years in high school, Lou Reed was pretty much God for me, and my opinions about my Lou Reed collection [something like 40 LPs counting bootlegs iirc] were kind of What I Did. It came as something of a surprise to me to learn years later that what most people liked about Lou was his wimped-out side instead of, y'know, Steve Hunter. That's right Steve Hunter. The intro to the Rock n Roll Animal "Sweet Jane" you guys probably all hate? I love it to pieces.)

That guy didnt play on Graceland.

he's better than Creedence though.

Finding out that George Harrison was in the Beatles was huge for me.

That guy didnt play on Graceland.

he did play left field for the Dodgers tho

I just thought of him as some Kenny Loggins-style beardo.

that's awesome

shakey mo you rate graceland as a better album than american beauty

its songs better than the songs on american beauty

just making sure I read you right before I say "wtf"

i sense a poll coming on

I have never willfully given much thought to American Beauty (see post way up there re: my Dead exposure) whereas I listen to Graceland all the time and have pretty much ever since it came out so yes

basically if it contains Bob and Phil's shitty ass singing, I am turning it off

like you know how you can't handle Fogerty YELLING AT YOU? well I can't handle the Dead's I AM WHEEZING OFF KEY AT YOU

yeah I feel you, that held me off the dead for many years (after a v. young pothead "I'm supposed to like these guys" interest in them phase) - but yeah, the songs on American Beauty just tower over anything on Graceland in my opinion

i like jerry's voice and i'm not really a dead fan

he sounds sad and exhausted and makes me blue

hey its rough being a fat junkie

be nice

as the old saying goes, do not speak ill of The Dead
http://ddenham.tripod.com/heaven.gif

lol maybe! i don't know too many fat junkies. to maintain that weight while being that high must've required some hard-core calorie cramming

shakey mo you rate graceland as a better album than american beauty

^he also rates it higher than fragile, close to the edge, funhouse, every vu album, and every other album that has been mentioned on this thread. I'll have some of what he's been smoking.

haha okay I don't rate it higher than EVERY Velvets album (forgot they had all been mentioned). Funhouse, eh its good and groundbreaking and scary and everything but I def. listen to Graceland more.

also I am almost out of what I have been smoking, sorry

basically if it contains Bob and Phil's shitty ass singing, I am turning it off

― emotionally abusive jowls (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, May 27, 2010 4:04 PM (47 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Phil only sang one song his whole career!

sings plenty of backup tho, right?

Hold the presses. Phil sang more than one song.

"Pride of Cucamonga" is a fantastic tune.

According to Rock Scully's account,Jerry was living off of heroin and Skittles or something.

Yeah, man. Phil sings "Unbroken Chain" and some other things besides "Box."
He really has a hard time with it live, though. Didn't know he sang the lead on Box of Rain for a while, still sort of hard to believe.

Not long after 'Mars Hotel' Lesh's voice fell apart. He didn't sing for, like, six years something. He then underwent some surgery and started singing live again in the 80s, I believe.

when i saw the Dead in the 90s, Phil sang that Robbie Robertson song "Broken Arrow" which I think Rod Stewart had a hit with? Anyway, it was ok.

bob weir's live version of "good lovin" where he was wearing pedophile eyeglasses and a safari shirt and shorts on some live at winterland thing i saw on PBS was the most embarrassing live performance i have ever seen.

Bob would be in line for many of those, actually. The "Bobby Touch", so to speak.

To tell you the truth, Phil's vocal on the studio take of "Box" isnt exactly Sinatra either.

yeah but it has so much presence & feeling

I mean ppl reppin for Lou for God's sake Reed aren't really in a position to call out ppl for their singin'

just sayin'

bob weir's live version of "good lovin" where he was wearing pedophile eyeglasses and a safari shirt and shorts on some live at winterland thing i saw on PBS was the most embarrassing live performance i have ever seen.

but yeah some of the bob weir solo stuff I've heard curls my fucking toes. gimme a junkie over a cokehead any day of the week, thanks

yeah but it has so much presence & feeling

^agreed, it's imperfection works in its favor, definitely.

Lou's a great vocalist (when he was actually trying/had a voice, ie pre-1982 or so)

yes but he is a terrible singer - once you like the dead, jerry's a great vocalist, too, "vocalist" really only means "I buy into some/all of his schtick & have decided I like him" imo

I'm sorry, but I have to cut Phil all kinds of slack for "Box of Rain" since he wrote it during the time he was visiting his father who was dying of cancer. It resonates with me because I was doing the same thing for six months before I lost my father to cancer last July (not writing a song just visiting my dying father in the hospital). Now, all kinds of shit strikes me emotionally that I would have been able to laugh at or shrug off before my father passed away, and "Box of Rain" is one of those things.

bob weir's live version of "good lovin" where he was wearing pedophile eyeglasses and a safari shirt and shorts on some live at winterland thing i saw on PBS was the most embarrassing live performance i have ever seen.

u CANNOT knock bob's style! tempted to SB

http://www.stevehowe.com/images/news/news-TrioTravelling.jpg
thought everyone should know that Steve Howe has a new album out. heard there's a stellar version of "(San Francisco) Giants Under the Sun".

just heard loaded for the first time and WOW ive never heard the velvets like this before

'i found a reason' is pretty much a grateful dead song, so i tip my lol to the OP

classic thread — here's this thing I just put together:
https://aquariumdrunkard.com/2020/08/10/unearthed-vol-11-unloaded/

Despite all the amputations,

lol

stoked to put this on right now, thanks for sharing

moe singing on "rock & roll" !!!

haha, yeah i love that version

"lonesome cowboy bill" intro:

"Oh yeah I wrote it, buuueeeegggghhhhhhhhhhh ... it's pretty new."

actually Jim Carroll blabbing into the tape there (from the max's LP)

oh that's right !

I heard both american beauty and workingman’s deadso many damn times growing up that for a long time afterwards I just couldn’t really *hear* them, iykwim. WD has thawed for me but I just never have any desire to listen to AB, the well worn grooves are too deep or something

loaded was the last VU album I got and yeah the other three had such distinct sonic/aesthetic identities that it was kind of a bummer that the fourth one was just a plain ol 1970 laid back rock record but it still jams, like it better these days but I’m pretty sure “who loves the sun” can take a hike

I think AB is definitely the better record but nothing on loaded makes my skin crawl like “candy man”

weird comparison, even if i like both albums.

there's nothing as potent as "box of rain" on loaded, but if we're picking which one we prefer, i'd probably go with loaded. hard choice though.

I've gotten to know American Beauty better since I opted for Loaded on the strength of three songs. There are more songs on American Beauty that I like...but it'd still be impossible to opt for it over those three songs (the two most obvious + "Oh! Sweet Nuthin'").