japan, the band

David Sylvian will never be a Jim Morrison or any other rock cliché. The same with OMD and Midge Ure, you cannot sell straight men dressed as fags prancing around a continental ballroom like it is the 18th century (see Ultravox's Vienna Video...) in the malls of America to Bif, Chaz, and Buffy. It doesn't translate; the gender roles in America, if nowhere else, are too rigid for young people to really be involved in music like this. In all seriousness, how many young people like Japan? I am 25 and I have only really appreciated them in the last 4-5 years or so.

I bought Tin Drum the very first time I went CD shopping. I was 15. I also bought Still by Joy Division. I immediately got Still and it was my favorite record until I was about 18 or so, and then it was Low by David Bowie/TEE by Kraftwerk. I liked Joy Division very much, infinitely more than Japan. I was not until my early 20's that I could appreciate Japan. I would like to think that I was a hell of a lot more musically adventurous than my peers (although perhaps not as precocious as some people on ilm...)

80's synth pop will never translate like 60's rock because it is not hetero enough, it does not have the prerequisite black precursors to culturally validate it, and perhaps most importantly, it is not an egalitarian music. Synth pop, especially something like Japan, does connect with working class people, at least not on a large scale. Worse, it does not even desire or pay lip service to the working class.

Perhaps it is not the best post, but at least it will give you ilm'ers something to pick apart. ;)

They fed of the same diet as fuelled the first 3 Ultravox albums (only), Doctors of Madness, Rikki and the Last Days... - In other words, a splash of Roxy'n'Bowie, and dollop of Lou and NYD. Maybe no 60s rock but plenty of 70s rock.

They were a fantastic populist rock band too, the music or the stage presence was never vaudaville camp. I remember the first conversation I had about them after a friend had seen them supporting Blue Oyster Cult and became a fan. '"Ah ken they look like lassies but that disnae matter".

I have no idea if you can sell straight men dressed as fags to the Malls of America, but you can, and Japan did, sell it to the terraces of the UK.

...it is not an egalitarian music. Synth pop, especially something like Japan, does not connect with working class people, at least not on a large scale. Worse, it does not even desire or pay lip service to the working class.

But if you're going to play this card, Japan themselves were from a working class background, I believe. So were Spandau Ballet, but I suspect that doesn't help matters. ;-) Regardless, there's a question of aspiration and identity here. You weren't assuming that the working class couldn't *create* this kind of music, right, MT? Or that someone could want to dream of something more?

Oh, and Japan = brilliant, of course. ;-)

Yeah they were that to start with, but then changed their tune quite significantly - didn't they used to get slated by all the press at the time as sub-NYD dreck? Your post is the first +ve thing I've ever seen anyone write about that phase of them! (Which may well indicate how poorly-read I am, mind. And maybe the first Ultravox album is in the same area - but I think the 2nd was a very mixed bag of more interesting synthy-rock stuff in among shitty punkish panderings, and the 3rd is a fantastic mix of proto-electronic pre- synth-pop and Conny Plank's Krautrock influence ('I Can't Stay Long' is just pure Neu!-as-a-proper-song). I think they were ahead of the game there - that was released in '78. (I saw Ultravox on that release tour - fucking brilliant night...)
And incidentally that kind of stuff is what I might have danced to in 1978 Dr. C....

it does not have the prerequisite black precursors to culturally validate it

Now at the risk of questioning one of the music canon's most hallowed assumptions - and, of course, of being accused of 'Racism' - I really don't think 'black precursors' culturally validate anything.

I love--LOVE--the first 2 Japan LPs (both '78, btw). Heavy Roxy influence, naturally, and Sylvian's vocals took "mannered" to a whole new level. I definately see a parallel between Japan and Ultravox! at this point in time...

Their transitional period--the Moroder-produced "Life in Tokyo" and the "Quiet Life" LP were great as well. I do feel their last two records--the ones that brought them the most fame--are fine records, but I don't have the affection for them that I have for their earlier work.

Not to take away from the rest of it, but this is my favorite part of mt's post -- especially the fact that it's "Chaz" and not "Chas."

But Japan were a rock band not an 80s synth pop band.

This is true, but like another poster said, is that what you think of when people say Japan? To be honest, my Japan exposure is Tin Drum, a few stray tracks, and a promo compilation. I think of David Sylvian in makeup, not punking out a la new wave. I am probably not alone, although my view is not completely right.

Then Ned Raggett said:

You weren't assuming that the working class couldn't *create* this kind of music, right, MT? Or that someone could want to dream of something more?

No, I was not assuming that working class people could not make such music. Brian Eno and Brian Ferry are both a couple farm boys from the sticks, Joy Division/New Order were Manchester working class, and I bet ABC and Heaven 17 were Birmingham working class too. BUT and this is a HUGE but (but not butt) we are discussing CONSUMPTION and MEDIA RECOGNITION not creation.

When I bring up the working class, I mean the rigid gender roles and stereotypes that *most* working class people need in order to consume and cannonize music. I would like to think that I have at least a minor handle on what the average person is about, and you can sell them classic rock much easier than synth noir. Rock does not challenge their assumtions and expectations the way this stuff does.

Will there be 80's material that will be cannonized like 60's rock, yes, but not bands like Japan. None of the faggy synth bands will get cannonized unless there is a huge cultural shift in the next 10-20 years. Personally, I do not see that shift coming.

And then Ray M Said:

Now at the risk of questioning one of the music canon's most hallowed assumptions - and, of course, of being accused of 'Racism' - I really don't think 'black precursors' culturally validate anything.

Then you do not understand how culture in America(although perhaps not the world) works. When it comes to music, for things to be respectable to white people as being soulful and eternal, it has to have a black influence. The key is that it has to be a black influence so old that it has been defanged and is now non threatening.

I am not saying that it is right, or 100% accurate every single time, but from what I have gathered in the last 22 years of my cultural analysis of music in the US, I notice this to be true very often. I am not saying it has to be black in order to be good, I am just saying that if you want to join the canon, white people have to rip off black people. I know that this is a very charged statement, so if you want further clarification do not be afriad to ask.

I am not saying music cannot be good if it does not have a strong black influence, I am just saying that it is much less likely to join the canon if it is not closely related. Now, discussing how the Canon becomes the Canon is an entirely different thread indeed.

feel free to compare with bowie, roxy, v.u. etc and any other bands as appropriate

on the summary greatest hits 2xLP many songs peviously accredited to just sylvian were now credited to "sylvian/jansen" -- is this just david covering his fake name and maybe arranging alternative tax domiciles or does sylvian's brother deserve co-writing credits ? and does this mean sylvian wrote the bass parts for karn ? and so then are "dali's car" worth ivestigating ? etc etc

It's a fairly odd album. I wouldn't call it either Karn or Peter Murphy at their best, but I drag it out for a listen from time to time. Favorite song is "The Judgment is the Mirror."

Then you obviously haven't been reading my posts! : )

since I'm still unable to hyperlink anything in a thread, so if there's anyone able to find that thread (it's long ago) and link it?

japan had a minor cult hit back then with Adolescent Sex which is still my fave from their early period; it's sleazy, vicious, bitchy, yeah very unsylvian you would say now.

but it was not really sexy, it was sleazy but not sexy, or was it?

(just my public service action for today, in the middle of reviewing ILM's stance on Japan)

While I'm here I may as well say, I bloody love Japan, especially Quiet Life, which I recently bought on a re-issue containing a video of the title track. David looks just like Debbie Harry on it = I am in love all over again.

Is that a randomly clever remark, or are you uncannily cognizant of the fact I was meant to be moving to Tokyo? (I haven't. Life in Manchester is fine, however.)

Last night I asked Mr. Zora what DS's solo stuff is like and he said it's a bit like the slowest, most introspective Japan tracks. So perhaps you can invert that and expect something a bit boppier.

The first two albums are altogether different, what dek 1 described upthread as 'dodgy rock era stuff'. Not what most people think of when you talk about Japan, and not my kind of thing at all.

To me Japan don't invoke either Roxy or Ultravox, but I have only a passing acquaintance with the John Foxx-era stuff. .

I'm not doing this very well; got one eye on the clock as I have a tram to catch; I'm sure someone else will be able to answer you better.

Depeche Mode have managed to survive though, replacing the typical androgynous synthpop image first with sort of an S/M image, and then, employing a certain Mr. Corbijn to give them the same kind of "cool" rock'n'roll image as U2 and Michael Hutchence

god this band is so fucking good.

When it comes to music, for things to be respectable to white people as being soulful and eternal, it has to have a black influence.

This may be a bit too old (2002) to answer, but an influence from country/folk will be sufficient in a lot of cases, no? Which means not neccessarily black as long as it is old and "authentic".

They were really good, yes, but somehow once I'd played their songs enough times I finally got tired of them. I recently bought the reissue of Gentlemen Take Polaroids and trying to listen to the whole thing seemed pointless. Like "My New Career" used to be one of my fave songs of theirs but now it doesn't do anything for me anymore. I think the Quiet Life album is the only one I could play now and still feel engaged.

Japan are total sex. Love em.

David Sylvian's voice = orgasmic
Mick Karn's basslines = meltingly good
Steve Jansen = hottt.

Trayce please get onto Trillian so I can IM you.

Im on there now! you on AIM or MSN? You never added me!

I am MSN, but my Trillian doesn't say you are on! :(

You said you are ILXtrayce right?

Quiet Life was the first LP I ever bought, and I still love it. It's got groove, it's got meaning. Bought the CD reissue last year and am also head over heels for the infintesimally different versions of 'All Tomorrow's Parties' - a mixtape essential.

ATP, or "Art of Parties"? Ive heard remixes of the latter but not the former than I can think of (maybe I'm missing something)

Yeah, ATP. On last year's CD reissue. Just 7" and 12" versions, really, and nothing noticeable.

quiet life
gentlemen take polaroids
methods of dance
night porter
art of parties
halloween
ghosts
visions of china
my new career
in vogue

No Sons of Pioneers, no credibility.

Yeah! Let's talk about Japan! I just played Sylvian's first solo album yesterday. I admit I don't play it all that often, even though it's one of the dearest records in my entire collection.

Are the cherishable imaginativeness and sophistication of Japan's later albums permanently obscured for many listeners by the group's pretty-boy looks and fondness for makeup?
If Sylvian & Co. had been as physically unprepossessing as, say, Wire, would their records get more love around here?

Also!

TS: David Sylvian's solo albums vs. Steve Kilbey's solo albums

Both great.

"european son" is soooooo good

Soooo underated...If Mick Karn and Steve Jansen were American they would've of been recognized as one the greatest rhythm sections ever...Japan still remain one of of my fave bands and Sylvian's solo albums particularly Brilliant Trees and SOTB are fuckin amazing

I remember the first conversation I had about them after a friend had seen them supporting Blue Oyster Cult and became a fan.

This is an amazing and baffling pairing of bands.

if only mick karn had hung around long enough for a hasty reunion tour. can't buy publicity like this.

Do you really think that's funny or appropriate?

i'm going to assume that's a rhetorical question

I definitely think one thing that gets overlooked when Japan are discussed is the fantastic Rain Tree Crow album, which I think is absolutely gorgeous. While it doesn't really resemble the art-funk of Gentlemen Takes Polaroids or Tin Drum, I find it very relaxing, almost post-rock even. It's one of those albums were you have to seriously just listen and let the slow-burning tracks unfold and allow yourself to let the album take you with it.

I think one thing that throws people off when they first listen to it is that it doesn't really have much in the way of prominent Mick Karn quirky basslines on it, but it really isn't that kind of album and what he does play really suits the tracks, in my opinion.

this band needs a box set

Quiet Life and Tin Drumre all I wanna listen to lately

I think those are the only two I know (beyond a few random tunes here and there), but I love them both so, so much

Turrican OTM

The Rain Tree Crow album is a good time.
When I bought it the day it came out, I was a little disappointed that there were so many instrumentals.
Now, I'm like "I wish there was more stuff like that on here".

Karn totally flipped his style, yet still came out sounding like himself.
The "bag of flutes" on the title track? All that fantastic bass clarinet. Genius.

What a band.

the biography by anthony reynolds is excellent.

sure is

can't find it in the states!

i had it shipped over from the publisher and it was worth it. the hardcover is sold out now but they have a paperback edition coming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGMJZzTuhdk
this

definitely think one thing that gets overlooked when Japan are discussed is the fantastic Rain Tree Crow album, which I think is absolutely gorgeous. While it doesn't really resemble the art-funk of Gentlemen Takes Polaroids or Tin Drum, I find it very relaxing, almost post-rock even. It's one of those albums were you have to seriously just listen and let the slow-burning tracks unfold and allow yourself to let the album take you with it.

― The Jupiter 8 (Turrican), Friday, November 30, 2012 9:18 PM (3 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

My thunderbolt moment november '91 when the community radio station played "Taphead" by Talk Talk on their late night show, the host preambled it by saying the only sort-of comparison he could come up with was the Rain Tree Crow album. Shortly I was living and breathing Laughingstock and I also bought Rain Tree Crow as soon as I could find a copy. I was not familiar with Japan or Sylvian at that point and RTC disappointed me initially as Sylvian's singing sounded so much more conventional than Hollis'. After a few years it grew and grew on me though and now it lives on the same shelf as Laughingstock, A Walk Across The Rooftops, and the Orang debut.

The "Rain Tree Crow" album used to be my go-to sleepy time music. The rhythm section just kills on that recording.

'Every Colour You Are' and 'Pocketful of Change' = sublime. It's a shame that things fell apart and they didn't make another.

(That's an odd un' - was just playing La Muñeca De Sal & Anthony Reynolds's version of "Wonderful Life")

what else sounds like rain tree crow besides certain Orang tracks, Talk Talk B-sides and some of Peter Gabriel's soundtrack work?

Especially that approach to percussion...

You could try Jansen/Barbieri's Stone to Flesh, Bark Psychosis' Hex or Codename Dustsucker, Pluramon's Render Bandits, Hood's Cycles of Days and Seasons, or Headphone's Work in Progress. Maybe No-Man's Together We're Stranger as well.

Jansen and Barbieri's 'Stories Across Borders', from the same year, is also quite good.
Def my fave of the releases they did as a duo.
Karn pops up on a couple of tracks, too, so you pretty much have most of yr RTC right there.

Stone to Flesh, Stories Across Borders and Work In Progress are new to me. Thanks! The Hood and No Man albums have been in my to listen pile for awhile. Bad me. Hex, to me, is v good but lacks that kind of 16rpm world music aspect. I haven't listened to pluramon in forever and I should revisit that.

> certain Orang tracks, Talk Talk B-sides

Which ones in particular?

"It's Getting Late In The Evening"
"For What It's Worth"
"Little Brother"
"All Change"
"Anaon The Oasis"

The Orang debut is a must-own btw

never clicked with me and I'm a huge fan of all this stuff

(orang that is)

this rain tree crow shit is pretty middling and doesnt really go anywhere. great use of space I GUESS.

and wow I missed that book entirely. looking forward to a softcover. I slept on the Spirit of Talk Talk book too but I see they did reprint that.

I've always counted Avalon as one of the most important albums of my life -- it sounded / sounds like nothing else. After years of only knowing David Sylvian's work in relation to People I Pay More Attention To (Fripp et al), I finally discovered Japan several years ago and they blew my thirtysomething brain the way Avalon blew my twentysomething brain (and isn't it great that such epiphanies can still occur?). It's probably an obvious and maybe even superficial comparison at this point but the only songs I've heard that approach the sort of flawless, sophisticated New Romanticism of Avalon are things like "Despair," "In Vogue," and "Ghosts." Eager to check out some of the things mentioned upthread (have never heard any post-Talk Talk bands). Also, I've still only heard Tin Drum and Quiet Life (and bits and pieces of GTP). I guess I've always been terrified of spoiling how much I love those two albums by hearing lesser albums (I like a lot of Roxy, but Avalon is the only one I love).

Roxy's 'Same Old Scene' could have fitted snugly on Quiet Life to the point where I wouldn't have batted an eyelid. Just replace Ferry's voice with Sylvian's.

> they blew my thirtysomething brain

Nice! You're never too old to find something amazing. Your next step should be hearing "Oil On Canvas", the stellar live album. After that it's on to Rain Tree Crow and Sylvian's 80s albums. Then circle back and we'll see what you think, Sylvian went in some interesting directions in the last 20 years.

The last time I listened to Brilliant Trees, I was struck my how well engineered and beautifully recorded it was. Steve Nye worked some absolute magic on that record.

he's skipped "gentlemen take polaroids' though. jimmywine should check that out.

the only 'lesser' japan albums are 'adolescent sex' and 'obscure alternatives' and those are only 'lesser' to the extent that they are more influenced by early glam than new romantic.

Jansen and Barbieri's 'Stories Across Borders', from the same year, is also quite good.
Def my fave of the releases they did as a duo.
Karn pops up on a couple of tracks, too, so you pretty much have most of yr RTC right there.

Learning a lot here - thanks!

Context for Jansen and Barbieri? Who are these guys? New name(s) to me.

they are half of Japan!

I wanted to stop by today and mention that Howard Shore's film score to Cronenberg's Maps to the Stars kinda scratches that rain tree crow instros/ECM-y fourth world itch. Fidgety upright bass + tablas + ominous synths.

Learning a lot here - thanks!

Context for Jansen and Barbieri? Who are these guys? New name(s) to me.

they are half of Japan!

The drummer and the keyboard player to be precise. Responsible for a lot of the sound on RTC.

+ steve jansen is also sylvian's brother fyi

sorry that fyi was meant w/o snark

sometimes stage names really puzzle me. Why change your surname from Batt to Jansen? Sylvian I get.

Listening to GTP and Best of Japan a lot lately. And Yukihiro Takahashi's Neuromantic. Something's going on with my brain for sure.

Why change your surname from Batt to Jansen?

HUH

whoa

Yeah who’d a thunk

https://e.snmc.io/lk/l/a/8a3eaee17f6fca632639174f46e1cb19/2803623.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/dd/4e/db/dd4edb60a05602a84733ba32f5962bd7.jpg

bowie - drive in saturday

Cursing at the Astronette 8
Who stands in steel
by his cabinet
He's crashing out with Sylvian
The Bureau Supply
for ageing men

Sylvian (Sylvain) and Jansen (Johansen) were both NY Dolls tributes.

Mick Karn/Arthur Kane too I guess.

Quiet Life getting the deluxe reissue treatment:
https://www.superdeluxeedition.com/news/japan-quiet-life-box-set/