Raging Bull: C/D?

Its hilarious ("Did you fuck my wife?"). Its terrifying("Did you fuck my wife?") . Its sad (etc).

The boxing scenes - while bearing little resemblance to the actual sport - are extraordinary. And after a while they offer relief from the psychological and emotional violence of LaMotta's home life. Christ, thinking about it makes me want to see it right now...

I think "cinematic ballet" is the best reference I've heard regarding the fight scenes, a highly stylized "realism" that has been often copied since ("Saving Private Ryan", "Ali") but has never been repeated as successfully.

My one caveat when I first saw it in early '81 was "Who gives a fuck about this asshole?" That still hasn't completely evaporated, but theredemption angle -- totally lost on me then -- registers now. Esp after seeing PT Anderson rip it off.

I don't really agree with that, mostly for the example that you've given. Expressionist filmmaking is typically over-the-top & blatant to the viewer--it doesn't feel "realistic" at all. "Stylized realism" is more philosophically dangerous in my opinion.

It wasn't such an issue for me in this film (creating a realistic sense of panicked time and animal instinct in the ring through the extreme camera angles and abstract non-diagetic soundtrack), but it is in films like "Apocalypse Now" (which uses similar techniques) and even more so in that abomination "Saving Private Ryan". I wanted to hit Spielberg everytime I heard someone say "oh, and the battle scenes were so realistic..." Nothing like a so-called "anti-war" film that ended up being the best piece of pro-war propaganda in the past two decades. Sorry, off on tangent....

Mardik Martin is a jeenuss.

Sorry, but that's as I see it.

See, I think the problem is that we have separate interpretations of what the term expressionist means.

some fine debate in commrnts on G Kenny's blog on a stunning film i could never love:

http://somecamerunning.typepad.com/some_came_running/2009/02/raging-bull-28-years-and-several-months-later.html

opening credits are pure <3

Last ten or so minutes of this are pure <3 and very sad too..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00xfcrx

Features exclusive interviews apparently. Should be available via iPlayer afterwards I guess

jeez, I went to a comedy show my friend put together, and Jake LaMotta was in the audience. He's 89, looks older.

o_O

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1148205/

http://ilovehotdogs.net/post/60242837404/raging-bull-1980-behind-the-scenes-photos-from

interview with the titlemaker:

http://www.artofthetitle.com/title/raging-bull/

incredibly tho it was projected at 1.66 in 1980, you can't see it that way on the latest discs.

I suppose I should post on an ILX Scorsese thread.

Still the same film to me as when I sat in an almost-empty theatre in 1980 (probably an afternoon screening close to its opening) at the age of 19. Three or four minutes I don't like, wouldn't change a second elsewhere.

The two times I think Scorsese overreaches, trying clumsily to get at something beyond primal: 1) the last Robinson fight where he slows everything to a halt before La Motta gets pummeled. I think the choreography of the fight scenes is usually beautiful, but that sequence loses the rhythm altogether; 2) La Motta's self-flagellation inside the Dade County prison. I've never liked either passage, and I look away during Dade County.

Things I still find very moving: 1) the home-movie sequence, intercut with stills from a procession of fights. I was at a remembrance beforehand today for my best friend's mom, and he'd made up a collage of home movies dating back to the early '60s that was shown. Old home movies are very powerful; 2) When Jake finally wins the title against Marcel Cerdan--the way the referee walks over in slow motion to let La Motta know the fight's over, La Motta breaking down as he lifts his arms over his head; 3) The last scene between Jake and Joey in the parking lot, Joey agreeing to get together at some point; 4) The parable at the end, followed by the dedication to Haig P. Manoogian: "With Love and resolution, Marty."

I liked what Marcus wrote in his '80s wrap-up in Film Comment: "There isn’t a false moment in this good story, and Robert De Niro turns other actors into fools. But the language of the movie was made for video, or laser disc: you get to try to break the dreamlike, unutterably brutal fight scenes down to single frames, to demystify their force, to expose their artifice, and it can’t be done. You find yourself staring at Francis Bacon paintings, paintings so strong you can hardly bear to start the film again." (Laser discs!) I've also always remembered this from Final Cut, an in-house screening of the film for some executives (was able to cut-and-paste from online):

The lights came up slowly in a room full of silence, as if the viewers had lost all power of speech. Nor was there the customary applause. Martin Scorsese leaned against the back wall of the screening room as if cowering from the silence. Then Andy Albeck rose from his seat, marched briskly to him, shook his hand just once, and said quietly, "Mr. Scorsese, you are an Artist " He turned and left and walked back to 729 and to work.

Great post. I agree on the power of old home movies. My condolences to your friend and to you.

Thanks. Guessing you're the same Jay earlier in the thread?

I was thinking about the whole "toxic masculinity" thing last night (I use the quotations not because the concept isn't real, just because I hate using clichés), about whether it's about the thing or the thing itself. If I had to choose one or the other, I'd easily go with the first--I can't believe anyone could come away from the film thinking Scorsese is celebrating La Motta's violent brutishness--but I'd rather not choose. It just is--it's art. It's as mysterious as the parable that ends the film.

Positively not the same guy!

No, I'm not that Jay :)

I almost said "them's fightin' words!" on your behalf.

I can see Scorsese saying he was meaning to criticize not celebrate La Motta's toxic masculinity in Raging Bull, but he made it the focus and iconic center of a very glamorous movie, like with The Wolf of Wall Street

it doesn't cut it with me

I think it's a beautiful looking film, but I'd call it anything but glamorous.

(Talking about Raging Bull--I hate Wolf of Wall Street for a dozen reasons.)

Also, if your intention is to criticize something, how could it not be at the center of the film? If he had relegated it to the margins, made La Motta less brutish, he'd be guilty of soft-pedalling that.

1) the last Robinson fight where he slows everything to a halt before La Motta gets pummeled. I think the choreography of the fight scenes is usually beautiful, but that sequence loses the rhythm altogether;

strongly agree with this criticism, it feels like he wants to be, idk, maybe peckinpah in that moment? but it's all wrong