After Honus Wagner (clearly the greatest shortstop ever), he's routinely cited as one of the top two or three shortstops ever, even though he isn't nearly as famous as a host of other guys. But I wouldn't have pegged Arky Vaughn for 2nd on that list.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/v/vaughar01.shtml
Keep in mind that WARP3 measures performance relative to others at the same position. In that respect, Vaughn hit out of his mind for a shortstop (check out those Ruth/Williams-worthy OBPs), and the 30's were a weak decade for shortstops.
Pujols is currently on pace to demolish all of their marks, so why should he be free of any rumors/accusations?
I know that this question is somewhat rhetorical, and it feels like everyone is recycling their comments from other threads ... but anyway:
-- 20-year male athletes are skinny. All of you were probably skinny when you were 20. Athletes bulk up as they get older. This is normal. Athletes' bodies fill out throughout their 20's and 30's. This is normal. Looking like a beast when you're only 21 (Pujols' supposed age in his rookie year) is not normal.
-- In light of the above comment, improvements in medicine and training, not to mention the tremendous amount of money to be made in pro sports now (compared to 10-20 years ago, even) have led to more athletes (in many sports) getting bigger at an earlier age. Lifting weights was strongly frowned upon by baseball players throughout the history of the game. It only started gaining acceptance in the 1990's. It doesn't matter who you believe was on the juice -- you still gotta lift weights when you're on steroids, and that wasn't part of the culture until very recently. So it's pointless to say that Bonds/Mac/Sosa/etc. looked different at the start of their careers because bulking up just wasn't done when they were coming up through the system. You can't argue "Bonds put on lots of weight and Pujols hasn't, therefore this 'proves' that Bonds juiced but Pujols didn't because it must be his natural body type." No, they grew up in different times.
So why isn't Pujols surrounded by steroid rumours? Like I've said before -- cleaning up the game is a distant priority for MLB. Their main concern is cleaning up the game's image. You can accomplish the latter by scapegoating a few big stars. The former task is a lot more difficult because you have to do a thorough investigation into the role that steroids played in the game, how widespread the problem was (or is), and what effect steroids had on what we saw happening on the field. Selig doesn't have the patience for that. The Bonds Witchunt is supposed to convince people that MLB is "dealing" with the problem (which they aren't -- they're only "dealing" with Bonds). Once enough people believe that, they can proclaim that the game is clean and return to wilful ignorance (and therefore Pujols couldn't possibly be using drugs, and if he was, Selig doesn't need to know about it).
― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Saturday, 6 May 2006 01:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Saturday, 6 May 2006 01:47 (eighteen years ago) link
http://www.rookiesquantities.com/images/fi99_ap2_insert.jpghttp://www.rookiesquantities.com/images/fi00_ap3_insert.jpghttp://www.rookiesquantities.com/images/fi00_ap5_insert.jpghttp://www.triple-abaseball.com/images/pujolsa.jpg
― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Saturday, 6 May 2006 02:09 (eighteen years ago) link
I'm also glad that all those strappingly cut "look nothing like their rookie card" minor league middle relievers that are getting busted every week for PEDs are built they way they are, otherwise how else would we know they were "obviously juicing"?
― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Saturday, 6 May 2006 02:15 (eighteen years ago) link
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 6 May 2006 16:55 (eighteen years ago) link
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 6 May 2006 17:12 (eighteen years ago) link
― ALLAH FROG (Mingus Dew), Saturday, 6 May 2006 22:41 (eighteen years ago) link
― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 6 May 2006 23:56 (eighteen years ago) link
― bnw (bnw), Sunday, 7 May 2006 06:45 (eighteen years ago) link
Problem is, aside from Roger Clemens, I can't think of many players who's bodies changed so dramatically during the "bulking up" craze.
― bnw (bnw), Sunday, 7 May 2006 06:56 (eighteen years ago) link
Albert Pujols didnot look like a "beast" back then;a large human, yes.
ALLAHFROG, if youdo not trust baseball at all,then why do you care?
― Haikunym (Haikunym), Sunday, 7 May 2006 12:39 (eighteen years ago) link
― milo z (mlp), Sunday, 7 May 2006 15:10 (eighteen years ago) link
Why should I not dismiss all pitching records before 1969 (before they lowered the mound)?
Why should I not dismiss the balk records set in 1988 (when it was widely known that the umps were going to call a lot of them, the rules were relaxed the very next season)?
Why should I not dismiss every home run record set after (or before, depending on your viewpoint) 1920, when the ball was known to be juiced? Or what about home runs hit in 1987 -- one of several years in which the ball was reportedly re-juiced?
Why should I not dismiss the HOF resumes of every hitter who reached his prime in the 1930's (a hitting era that puts the late 90's to shame)?
― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Sunday, 7 May 2006 16:48 (eighteen years ago) link
― ALLAH FROG (Mingus Dew), Sunday, 7 May 2006 17:03 (eighteen years ago) link
we tend to remember only doc gooden, the straw man and steve howe...maybe lamar hoyt, but the investigations and suspensions were pretty wide ranging. and i also remember a lot of guys being accused of using coke, though nothing was ever proven (eric davis is the biggest name i can think of).
― jonathan quayle higgins (j.q. higgins), Sunday, 7 May 2006 17:07 (eighteen years ago) link
I'd have to look through my books for the citation, but I read that with some interest just a couple of weeks ago. They did analyses of balls from both eras and found no real differences to account for the HR discrepancies. It comes down to hitting styles, park changes, the loss of specialty pitches (shineball, spitball, etc. being phased out as players retired) and on down the line.
― milo z (mlp), Sunday, 7 May 2006 18:19 (eighteen years ago) link
But my main point still stands -- comparing post-1920 offense (particularly 1920-1940) with 1900-1920 offense is nearly impossible. There was an offensive explosion after 1920, but we don't view the live ball era as "tainted" in any way. It was just a different style of play.
― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Sunday, 7 May 2006 19:15 (eighteen years ago) link
But, yeah, your point is certainly correct - and that leaves out the biggest trump card of all time - Babe Ruth never had to play against Martin Dihigo or John Donaldson and without the color line we could very well be talking about Josh Gibson as the greatest hitter in baseball history.
― milo z (mlp), Sunday, 7 May 2006 19:25 (eighteen years ago) link
― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 15:21 (eighteen years ago) link
Couldn't it just as easily have been someone from Japan or Cuba or wherever else? Babe Ruth is the greatest hitter in the history of Major League Baseball, whether you compare him to his era OR whether you take his stats alone. Josh Gibson never played Major League Baseball, and neither did, say, Saduhara Oh. Saduhara Oh played against allegedly watered down players, but so did Josh Gibson. If Gibson played in the major leagues, there's no way to know whether he would have hit 400 home runs for his career or 800.
― polyphonic (polyphonic), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 15:36 (eighteen years ago) link
― c(''c) (Leee), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 16:27 (eighteen years ago) link
The point is that Ruth PLAYED against watered-down players too though! And I find the argument that Gibson would have hit only 400 home runs in the ML pretty suspect esp. considering how a lot of the Negro Leaguers stars performed in the ML when they finally got there. Would Gibson have been as good as Babe Ruth in an integrated ML? Probably not. But would Ruth have been as good as Ruth in an integrated ML? Also probably not.
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 16:43 (eighteen years ago) link
― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 16:48 (eighteen years ago) link
I don't know about that. I mean, to this day, there are very few good African American pitchers. I mean, who is to say that Barry Bonds would have 700+ hr if he had to hit against great pitchers such as, say, Donovan McNabb, Michael Jordan, or Jarome Iginla? While there were a core of excellent pitchers in the Negro Leagues, there were also a ton of guys who wouldn't have made a roster, and Ruth, Bonds, Gibson, et al. have always done most of their work against the worst pitchers in the league, not against the Satchel Paiges and Bob Gibsons of the world.
In fact, you could probably make the case that an integrated league would equate to lowered offensive production across the board.
(Yes, I know that I'm rambling and not really making a cohesive argument. I'm sick, give me a break.)
― polyphonic (polyphonic), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 16:51 (eighteen years ago) link
― c(''c) (Leee), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 17:02 (eighteen years ago) link
― c(''c) (Leee), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 17:05 (eighteen years ago) link
I think league wide the offense would probably have gone up though. Most of the most famous Negro Leaguers were hitters and I imagine the difference in their value over the players they were replacing would be higher than the pitchers (although who knows once you calculate defense blah blah.)
Also the reasons why there are so few African-American pitchers (and PLAYERS) now has a lot to do with a number of recent changes in the way youth talent is developed (and how that relates to race/economics) and most (if not all) of those changes are relatively recent.
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 17:09 (eighteen years ago) link
xpost
The spread in ability between the best and worst players in baseball has decreased significantly since the days of Ruth and Cobb. In other words, the best players don't dominate the competition to the same degree that they did in the 1920's (Barry Bonds is a freakish exception, as you all know). I'm sure that the segregation of the game was a big reason for this ... larger pool of talent -> pitching AND hitting ability both increase -> less room for stragglers on the lower extreme of the talent distribution curve.
― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 17:09 (eighteen years ago) link
― Tracey Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 17:31 (eighteen years ago) link
― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 17:34 (eighteen years ago) link
18/34.5*162 = 85
― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 17:41 (eighteen years ago) link
Krukow surmised that Ruth's lack of automatic doubles was because stadiums had not warning tracks; instead, the balls had to bounce off of grass. Then the play-by-play guy who went to Stanford (STATHEAD OMG) deep-sixed this theory, because plenty of other chumps were hitting ground-rule homers.
― c(''c) (Leee), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 17:48 (eighteen years ago) link
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 17:51 (eighteen years ago) link
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 17:52 (eighteen years ago) link
Couldn't it just as easily have been someone from Japan or Cuba or wherever else? Babe Ruth is the greatest hitter in the history of Major League Baseball, whether you compare him to his era OR whether you take his stats alone.Yes, it was rhetorical. Martin Dihigo was a Cuban player who played all eight field positions at a high rate and was a slightly-below-great pitcher as well. Pop Lloyd, Oscar Charleston, etc. etc. etc. - there
Josh Gibson never played Major League Baseball, and neither did, say, Saduhara Oh. Saduhara Oh played against allegedly watered down players, but so did Josh Gibson. If Gibson played in the major leagues, there's no way to know whether he would have hit 400 home runs for his career or 800.That's why I said we 'could be'. What we do know is that the talent pool for both players was more questionable than the one facing Pujols or Bonds (and, I mean, there are questions about whether the stars of the 1920s could even get on the field with modern athletes).
Another thing to remember is that Negro League players were often playing in leftover deadball era parks, and none of them played in parks that were tailor-made to their abilities (ala Ruth's porch in Yankee Stadium, the Red Sox pulling in left field 10-15 feet to benefit Ted Williams).
Japanese records are significantly more detailed than Negro League (or even older MLB) records, so we do have a fairly competent way to translate Sadahuru Oh and other players' stats. From what I've read, Oh would certainly be a Hall of Fame hitter, but nowhere near the greatest ever. Shigeo Nagashima is less famous but equally respected by Japanese players/fans/historians.
― milo z (mlp), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 19:22 (eighteen years ago) link
― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 19:36 (eighteen years ago) link
i mean sports are serious business now and conditioning is superior and just general societal lifestyle things make a difference, but wasn't baseball pretty much the only true major league sport in the days of the babe?
look at at all the competition baseball faces now from football, hoops, soccer and to some extent, hockey and lax (to the extent that there are thousands of kids who may never play baseball b/c lax season conflicts).
i'm not saying that the talent pool is weak now, but baseball had pretty free range over things for a while.
― jonathan quayle higgins (j.q. higgins), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 19:52 (eighteen years ago) link
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 20:03 (eighteen years ago) link
― c(''c) (Leee), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 22:34 (eighteen years ago) link
I will enthrall and delight all of you with my fascinating observations in a week or so. I am leaving the keys to the ILB office with Barry and Felicity. Be easy on them!
Steve ShastaEast Coast Wakeboarding Representative
― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 23:52 (eighteen years ago) link
― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 11 May 2006 00:18 (eighteen years ago) link
― polyphonic (polyphonic), Thursday, 11 May 2006 06:51 (eighteen years ago) link
1. Albert Pujols STL .362 35.22. Nick Johnson WAS .326 17.73. Lance Berkman HOU .316 17.44. Nomar Garciaparra LAN .337 16.75. Carlos Delgado NYN .305 15.7
― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Monday, 22 May 2006 14:29 (eighteen years ago) link
― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Monday, 22 May 2006 14:30 (eighteen years ago) link
― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 22 May 2006 14:36 (eighteen years ago) link
― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Monday, 22 May 2006 14:58 (eighteen years ago) link
― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Monday, 22 May 2006 14:59 (eighteen years ago) link
― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Monday, 22 May 2006 15:58 (eighteen years ago) link
― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 22 May 2006 15:59 (eighteen years ago) link
Okay, the title of the chart is "Projected All-time HR Leaders using Baseball Prospectus' PECOTA Forecasting Tool":
1. Barry Bonds - 7652. Hank Aaron - 7553. Babe Ruth - 7144. Alex Rodriguez - 6785. Willie Mays - 6606. Adam Dunn - 6387. Ken Griffey Jr. - 6378. Albert Pujols - 6209. Manny Ramirez - 58910. Sammy Sosa - 588
― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Monday, 22 May 2006 16:21 (eighteen years ago) link
*scholar of platoon splits walks in wearing a gigantic top hat*
― Karl Malone, Wednesday, 24 August 2022 18:25 (one year ago) link
With Albert Pujols nearing the 700 HR milestone, do you have any evidence of pitchers in the past who threw pitches down the middle to help a player reach a milestone like 3,000 hits, 500 HRs, hits records, HR records, etc.? Asked by: Taylor
Answered: 8/24/2022No. I don't think I have ever heard of that happening.
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Hey Bill, it's very likely that Denny McLain -- finishing up his legendary 31-win 1968 season -- intentionally gave up a homer to the retiring Mickey Mantle. Jim Price, who caught the game, says this was the case. (Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/09/sports/baseball/09mclain.html) The game itself was meaningless in the standings, and it was 6-1 Tigers in the 8th inning, with no one on base. This allowed Mantle to break his tie on the HR list with Jimmie Foxx. The article says "Price, who has broadcast Tigers games for more than three times as many years (18) as he caught them (5), said he has never heard of such a scene happening with any other player, past or present."Asked by: Mean Dean
Answered: 8/24/2022Oh, I remember watching that game! I really do remember seeing it on TV. I don't think you can intentionally give up a home run, though. You can groove a pitch, if you want to, but it's still a 1-in-10 or 1-in-20 shot that the batter will put it in the seats, even if you throw it right down the middle.
The Home Run Derby suggests otherwise, no? If they only hit even 1 out of 10, seven HR would win it.
― clemenza, Thursday, 25 August 2022 03:07 (one year ago) link
that is correct
― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 25 August 2022 07:49 (one year ago) link
I always think of wainwright admitting to grooving one to jeets his last ASG - showed how seriously the players took the home field advantage thing
― ✖, Friday, 26 August 2022 00:02 (one year ago) link
#694 tonight, against the Reds. it's the 3rd inning and it's 8-0, so i expect he'll get some more chances to hit tonight
― Karl Malone, Tuesday, 30 August 2022 00:56 (one year ago) link
that's a record-breaker, the 450th different pitcher he's hit a HR against, one more than mr. bonds.
― Karl Malone, Tuesday, 30 August 2022 00:57 (one year ago) link
i've noticed, watching the opposing team's broadcasts as per usual, that pujols is now routinely referred to as "the machine". "the machine" is not found in any of the previous 850+ posts. i admit, during pujols' 2001-2011 with the cardinals, i was barely paying attention to baseball. is "the machine" a newish nickname or was it always there? i don't like it
― Karl Malone, Tuesday, 30 August 2022 01:04 (one year ago) link
Makes me think of the 70’s Reds
― FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 30 August 2022 02:25 (one year ago) link
I vaguely recall Pujols' robotic and emotionless nature being a thing when he was first with the Cards. There was a Sportscenter commercial about it.
― frogbs, Tuesday, 30 August 2022 02:33 (one year ago) link
you'd think the nickname would have to be retired during the 2010s, though. that was brutal
― Karl Malone, Tuesday, 30 August 2022 02:33 (one year ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5VH7ZudR0c
― ✖, Tuesday, 30 August 2022 05:09 (one year ago) link
pujols' last AB against the cubs is a pinch hit home run, a no doubter, #695, a 2-run shot putting them up 2-0 in the bottom of the 8th. he's had extra good final performances against the reds and cubs now. dang
― Karl Malone, Sunday, 4 September 2022 21:54 (one year ago) link
#697 is a 2-run shot over the center field wall that puts the Cardinals up 3-2 in the top of the 9th, after being held to 2 hits for the rest of the game
that was classic
― Karl Malone, Sunday, 11 September 2022 20:07 (one year ago) link
https://i.imgur.com/TBJ4SmA.png
― Karl Malone, Sunday, 11 September 2022 20:08 (one year ago) link
bold of them to mention bonds
― mookieproof, Sunday, 11 September 2022 22:45 (one year ago) link
Matt and Samantha Brown caught Pujols’s 697th homer. Samantha’sfather passed away one year ago today. They met with Albert to give him the ball back — he told them to keep it and signed two more for them. Said it would mean more to her than to him. pic.twitter.com/FuXXFiYCIa— Jeff Jones (@jmjones) September 11, 2022
albert "cool guy" pujols ftw
― Karl Malone, Monday, 12 September 2022 22:56 (one year ago) link
That is cool. That ball is probably worth a ton
― frogbs, Monday, 12 September 2022 23:22 (one year ago) link
#698, tied up the game.
― clemenza, Saturday, 17 September 2022 04:33 (one year ago) link
699 and 700
― Michael F Gill, Saturday, 24 September 2022 03:27 (one year ago) link
congrats to Apple TV! and to Wayne randazzo of all people who got to call it live (he’s usually the Mets radio guy, he might actually be better as a tv play by play guy)
― Michael F Gill, Saturday, 24 September 2022 03:29 (one year ago) link
actually never saw him smile like that
― frogbs, Saturday, 24 September 2022 03:31 (one year ago) link
Wonderful moment. And did I see Adrian Beltre and Dave Winfield in the crowd? (I watched the highlights from MLB's YouTube channel)
― NoTimeBeforeTime, Saturday, 24 September 2022 05:14 (one year ago) link
I have spent all night trying to figure out who that was. Was it David Winfield?
― Karl Malone, Saturday, 24 September 2022 05:47 (one year ago) link
beltre was the guy he went over to
― ✖, Saturday, 24 September 2022 08:22 (one year ago) link
Like they haven't had enough good stuff happen in L.A. this year.
― clemenza, Saturday, 24 September 2022 09:16 (one year ago) link
500 HRs against RHP, 200 HRs against LHP
― Karl Malone, Saturday, 24 September 2022 15:48 (one year ago) link
the other way around surely?
― Tracer Hand, Saturday, 24 September 2022 17:19 (one year ago) link
nope!for most of his career he was an equal-opportunity destroyer of right and left-handed pitching. but more importantly, most pitchers are right-handed so he had a lot more PAs against RHP then against LHP
― Karl Malone, Saturday, 24 September 2022 18:04 (one year ago) link
9600 PAs against RHP3418 PAs against LHP
― Karl Malone, Saturday, 24 September 2022 18:05 (one year ago) link
He went over to Beltre after hitting the HR, but the other guy (Winfield) appeared on camera a couple of times.
― NoTimeBeforeTime, Saturday, 24 September 2022 18:10 (one year ago) link
I should say -- (Winfield?)
― NoTimeBeforeTime, Saturday, 24 September 2022 18:11 (one year ago) link
beltre i recognized, but winfield was driving me nuts because I also recognized him and just could not remember his name
― Karl Malone, Saturday, 24 September 2022 18:11 (one year ago) link
after a 2-run double, pujols is now one RBI behind babe ruth for second place all-time. strangely, baseball reference has babe ruth with 2214 RBIs while fangraphs shows 2217 RBIs? albert has 2213.
― Karl Malone, Sunday, 2 October 2022 18:53 (one year ago) link
he hits a HR, his 702nd, in his final game in St. Louis (three more follow in Pittsburgh), and ties Ruth with 2214 RBIs as well, behind only Hank Aaron.
― Karl Malone, Sunday, 2 October 2022 19:40 (one year ago) link
what a moment
https://i.imgur.com/SVHsany.png
― Karl Malone, Sunday, 2 October 2022 19:46 (one year ago) link
I was thinking the way he’s been hitting, he must’ve been having *some* decent success against right handed pitching, but wow those platoon splits are something else. Albert on the Cards playing at Coors Field 2006 vs Albert on the Angels 2020 basically.
― omar little, Sunday, 2 October 2022 19:48 (one year ago) link
check out the guy at the top falling over with a beer
― Karl Malone, Sunday, 2 October 2022 19:53 (one year ago) link
https://i.imgur.com/By5XARC.png
#703 is in pittsburgh, a 2-run HR that barely cleared the wall in the left-field corner. it puts him ahead of Babe Ruth in RBIs with 2,216, second only to Hank Aaron.
― Karl Malone, Tuesday, 4 October 2022 00:05 (one year ago) link
Was surprised at first he didn't join Judge as player of the month, but yeah, Escobar was the better choice.
― clemenza, Tuesday, 4 October 2022 00:32 (one year ago) link