and like even the worst player in MLB will still be among the great ballplayers alive, to play long enough to make it onto the ballot means you were better than that, no need to give jacque jones shit 5 years after he retired
― my whole family is catholic so look at the pickle i'm in (zachlyon), Thursday, 9 January 2014 01:14 (ten years ago) link
"ballplayers" meaning "the human populace as ballplayers" obv
love le batard
― k3vin k., Thursday, 9 January 2014 02:48 (ten years ago) link
ditto, esp his explanation. apparently nobody at espn knew and pti today had the chuckleheads both attacking him for it which considering how loath espn is to have any drama in the family (they quasi-suspended simmons for tweeting something critical about the morning show on an espn affiliate) there's no way that didn't get an ok from above. hoping he doesn't suffer any negative consequences and it would be bullshit if they took his vote away after not doing anything about the 'i'm never voting for anybody again cuz steroids' morons for years. hopefully he inspires imitators. impressed w/ how good the deadspin ballot actually turned out tbh.
― balls, Thursday, 9 January 2014 02:57 (ten years ago) link
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nationals/greg-maddux-a-hall-of-fame-approach-that-carried-an-average-arm-to-cooperstown/2014/01/07/fdd7ae82-77d3-11e3-af7f-13bf0e9965f6_story.html
Maddux was convinced no hitter could tell the speed of a pitch with any meaningful accuracy. To demonstrate, he pointed at a road a quarter-mile away and said it was impossible to tell if a car was going 55, 65 or 75 mph unless there was another car nearby to offer a point of reference.
“You just can’t do it,” he said. Sometimes hitters can pick up differences in spin. They can identify pitches if there are different releases points or if a curveball starts with an upward hump as it leaves the pitcher’s hand. But if a pitcher can change speeds, every hitter is helpless, limited by human vision.
“Except,” Maddux said, “for that [expletive] Tony Gwynn.”
― christmas candy bar (al leong), Thursday, 9 January 2014 04:02 (ten years ago) link
The Le Batard/Deadspin ballot was one of the most reasoned and sensible ballots -- it had the maximum ten names, included Bonds and Clemens, and had no Jack Morris/Lee Smith embarrassments on it. I'm guessing not more than 5% of voters could say the same about their ballot. So if the BBWAA suspends him or takes his ballot away then they're just adding to the travesty that HOF voting has become.
― NoTimeBeforeTime, Thursday, 9 January 2014 11:30 (ten years ago) link
Ha -- Gwynn faced Maddux 103 times and hit .429/.485/.538.
― Andy K, Thursday, 9 January 2014 13:35 (ten years ago) link
that [expletive]
― call all destroyer, Thursday, 9 January 2014 13:50 (ten years ago) link
That's crazy.
― One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Thursday, 9 January 2014 14:32 (ten years ago) link
tbf - i can even understand the BBWAA taking away his ballot. it'll be a shame, but it is any less of an embarrassment having a writer let a website make his picks for him?
― Porto for Pyros (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Thursday, 9 January 2014 16:28 (ten years ago) link
he didn't 'sell' his ballot, as no money, even for charity, was exchanged. he took the advice of baseball fans and submitted a ballot far more reasonable than, say, ken gurnick's. why strip his vote? he didn't end up voting for jacque jones and armando benitez. as defenders of the current voting process like to say, it may have been ugly, but it ultimately worked.
― mookieproof, Thursday, 9 January 2014 16:50 (ten years ago) link
saw something yesterday that maddux would purposefully throw hittable pitches in super low leverage situations (like if he was pitching in a 5-0 game) just to fuck with hitters heads
― le goon (J0rdan S.), Thursday, 9 January 2014 16:54 (ten years ago) link
Whenever I made an effort to see someone during their absolute prime--Bonds in the early 2000s, Griffey in 1994--they usually didn't have a great game. But when my dad and I went to Montreal in '95 or '96 to catch Maddux, he was great. He won 3-2, I think--pitched a shutout for six or seven innings, got charged with a run or two after he'd left the game. He worked so fast. I remember watching him in bafflement as to how he made it look so easy.
― clemenza, Thursday, 9 January 2014 17:04 (ten years ago) link
i didn't say he sold his ballot.
― Porto for Pyros (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Thursday, 9 January 2014 17:10 (ten years ago) link
i know -- but some of his critics are
― mookieproof, Thursday, 9 January 2014 17:17 (ten years ago) link
I think this was the Maddux start I saw:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/MON/MON199508040.shtml
If I'm right, I don't remember that we took much notice of the Montreal starter.
― clemenza, Thursday, 9 January 2014 17:22 (ten years ago) link
Why would you, at 9-7 he didn't know how to win.
― Neil Nosepicker (Leee), Thursday, 9 January 2014 17:29 (ten years ago) link
most memorable game involving one of these electees:
i remember seeing the white sox against the boston red sox in '91 at comiskey park during frank thomas' first full season. it was pretty clear how good he was at that point, even halfway through that season. he hit two massive home runs off mike gardiner and came up against dennis lamp later. thomas was working the count and you could see lamp pacing off the mound and muttering to himself because he had no idea how to pitch to him, it looked like in the context of the situation that he didn't want to get back on the mound. there were at least two visits to the mound by the catcher. anyway, he eventually struck him out somehow but i just remember everyone watching thomas and knowing he was this new, unstoppable force.
also the game had a few future HOFers: thomas, boggs, fisk, raines (fingers crossed), sosa (ok maybe not...) plus ventura, burks, greenwell, jack clark, mo vaughn. lots of old school dudes on the way out and new school guys on the way in.
― christmas candy bar (al leong), Thursday, 9 January 2014 17:30 (ten years ago) link
Any Toronto fan who witnessed Dave Stieb's 1985 season was not hung up on W-L record. (xpost)
I saw Thomas somewhere in there too, but I don't recall that he did anything memorable. When we travelled to Detroit to see Griffey, he (literally) didn't get the ball out of the infield. Probably this game:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SEA/SEA199406270.shtml
― clemenza, Thursday, 9 January 2014 17:41 (ten years ago) link
@richardjusticeBBWAA hot about LeBatard shining light on an issue. Apparently okay with dozens of idiots still voting.
@richardjusticeWhat about spts editors and columnists and Olympic writers who spend 3 minutes on their ballots? We should not give anyone a lifetime vote.
@richardjusticeWe had a guy in Houston ask for fan help in filling out his HOF ballot. He still votes.
@richardjusticeWe had a guy in Houston who voted for Jim Deshaies so he could write a column about it. He still votes.
@richardjusticeHouston BBWAA voted to give one guy the "Nice Guy" award. Only later did someone point out the voters hadn't actually been in the clubhouse
― Andy K, Thursday, 9 January 2014 17:49 (ten years ago) link
i remember this game crystal clear - http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/ATL/ATL199709300.shtml
it was my birthday, i was home on leave, first time at turner field. two hours fifteen minutes.
― balls, Thursday, 9 January 2014 20:11 (ten years ago) link
But when my dad and I went to Montreal in '95 or '96 to catch Maddux, he was great. He won 3-2, I think--pitched a shutout for six or seven innings, got charged with a run or two after he'd left the game. He worked so fast. I remember watching him in bafflement as to how he made it look so easy.
Yeah, I saw Maddux pitch a complete-game shutout for the Cubs in 2004 and marveled at his command on the mound. Game was just a shade over two hours:http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHN/CHN200407170.shtml
― jaymc, Thursday, 9 January 2014 20:27 (ten years ago) link
@LeBatardShow 29m
Max penalty: BBWAA just lifetime banned me from Hall of Fame vote and won't allow me to attend a game as credentialed media for a year.
― polyphonic, Thursday, 9 January 2014 20:34 (ten years ago) link
oh noes
― mookieproof, Thursday, 9 January 2014 20:41 (ten years ago) link
The anti-Le Betard/Deadspin hysteria is a who's who of who sucks
― polyphonic, Thursday, 9 January 2014 20:45 (ten years ago) link
Yep
― Karl Malone, Thursday, 9 January 2014 21:07 (ten years ago) link
Sorry, more Maddux.
I was curious if I had the right game. No ticket stub, but I wrote a long Maddux piece for my fanzine at the time, and it turns out the boxscore linked to above is correct. Relevant excerpt:
http://i1059.photobucket.com/albums/t427/sayhey1/maddux_zps44278e11.jpg
I can't believe it. Saw Maddux at the peak of his peak, starting against a 23-year-old Pedro. Didn't mention Martinez then, remained completely oblivious to his involvement until I looked at the boxscore today.
― clemenza, Thursday, 9 January 2014 21:33 (ten years ago) link
I was at this game, it was Maddux's only time pitching in Toronto:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/TOR/TOR199706170.shtml
The Jays managed to score three runs off of him, but he still left with the lead and threw only 76 pitches through six. Time of the game: 2:45, but when was the last time you saw an 8-7 game with 24 hits get finished in less than three hours?
― NoTimeBeforeTime, Thursday, 9 January 2014 21:35 (ten years ago) link
http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/88163/hotsportstakes-in-a-world-of-wrong-the-hall-always-gets-it-right
― mookieproof, Thursday, 9 January 2014 21:36 (ten years ago) link
also from grantland, I just xp'd this in the PED thread, very good read:
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/10261642/mlb-hall-fame-voting-steroid-era
― Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Thursday, 9 January 2014 21:38 (ten years ago) link
xpost it has an uncanny resemblance to a Bill Plaschke column ... well I guess that settles the argument about who is the worst writer on earth.
― NoTimeBeforeTime, Thursday, 9 January 2014 21:43 (ten years ago) link
The second Grantland article is a must-read, even if you remember reading some or most of the articles it covers.
― NoTimeBeforeTime, Thursday, 9 January 2014 21:44 (ten years ago) link
My most memorable game ever involving anyone but Frank Thomas was playing :)
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/OAK/OAK200610060.shtml
― One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Thursday, 9 January 2014 22:49 (ten years ago) link
Just so Morbius can get an early start:
http://www.sbnation.com/2014/1/9/5290468/hall-of-fame-mlb-2015-ballot-pedro-martinez-randy-johnson-john-smoltz
http://mlb.si.com/2014/01/09/jaws-and-the-2014-hall-of-fame-ballot-an-early-look-at-the-new-names-for-2015/
― clemenza, Friday, 10 January 2014 02:42 (ten years ago) link
one of my favorite things about yesterday was smoltz taking part in the Maddux/glavine interviews and everyone was talking about how he'd be going in next year and smoltz just sat there stonefaced bc I think the writing is on the wall. I don't really see him making it on the first try, even though I think he'll do a lot better than schilling and mussina. normally he would i think but there are just too many guys down ballot who writers will want to vote just to keep under consideration.
― christmas candy bar (al leong), Friday, 10 January 2014 02:55 (ten years ago) link
maddux faced 20421 batters in his career. guess how many batters saw 3-0 counts?
― k3vin k., Friday, 10 January 2014 02:56 (ten years ago) link
1 - tony gwynn
― Karl Malone, Friday, 10 January 2014 03:00 (ten years ago) link
that poophead
133. think about that
― k3vin k., Friday, 10 January 2014 03:00 (ten years ago) link
no fair, he used pitches that moved
― mookieproof, Friday, 10 January 2014 03:16 (ten years ago) link
I don't know if that's right:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=maddugr01&year=Career&t=p#count
I read that as 644 3-0 counts ("After 3-0"). What does seem intuitively impressive is that, while the subsequent OBP is of course very high (.726), the BA (.275) and SLG (.375) are very low. I would think you'd expect hitters to do much better than that when putting the ball in play.
― clemenza, Friday, 10 January 2014 03:18 (ten years ago) link
They have to induct Mussina before he loses his looks.
― eclectic husbandry (Dr Morbius), Friday, 10 January 2014 03:24 (ten years ago) link
That's why they only made Yogi wait a year.
For a quick comparison, some other career "after 3-0" slash lines:
Clemens: .226/.707/.385Pedro: .279/.714/.532Johnson: .280/.778/.479Schilling: .313/.705/.497Mussina: .245/.657/.344Glavine: .255/.713/.421Halladay: .275/.668/.425
Can't look up anybody before that, no data before '88. Clemens was easily the best, then Mussina; Pedro was the worst. Anyway, measured only against his peers, Maddux was better than most.
― clemenza, Friday, 10 January 2014 03:42 (ten years ago) link
how is clemens easily the best when mussina's OPS is like 90 pts lower?
― my whole family is catholic so look at the pickle i'm in (zachlyon), Friday, 10 January 2014 04:45 (ten years ago) link
it's a meaningless sample anyway
― k3vin k., Friday, 10 January 2014 04:48 (ten years ago) link
Zach's right, didn't look closely enough--I thought Clemens took the first and last.
I guess it's a relatively small sample, but Clemens and Maddux both had the equivalent of a full season, Mussina slightly less so. I wouldn't say meaningless--with 1100 PA between them, I'd feel confident saying that Mussina and Clemens had a knack for fighting back from 3-0 counts. Palmer's famous thing of not giving up a grand slam is a much smaller sample, 213 PA. (Something that surprises me. Knowing Palmer never gave up a grand slam, I always assumed that being extra careful to the point of paranoia, he probably walked a higher-than-usual number of guys in such situations. No--in those 213 bases-loaded PA, he walked 13...and only gave up five doubles and a triple. His line: .196/.230/.234.)
― clemenza, Friday, 10 January 2014 12:45 (ten years ago) link
Palmer pitched to the basepaths (sorta not kidding).
― One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Friday, 10 January 2014 12:58 (ten years ago) link
Maybe--I'll have to check if he had any errant pickoff throws.
― clemenza, Friday, 10 January 2014 14:40 (ten years ago) link
Sorry bad joke. I meant that he pitched based on how many people were on (which obviously in some sense all pitchers do). It was a play on Morris "pitch to the score" thing.
― One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Friday, 10 January 2014 15:07 (ten years ago) link
I got the joke, and it was good. I was trying to return serve...
― clemenza, Friday, 10 January 2014 15:09 (ten years ago) link