(Astacio)
― nomar, Monday, 23 January 2017 17:07 (seven years ago) link
(xposts)
Oops--one other, duh. After him, I don't think the issue will come up again until at least 2032, when possibly you'll have Kimbrel and/or Chapman and/or Jansen. Unless the whole idea of a closer in the HOF is a non-starter by then.
― clemenza, Monday, 23 January 2017 18:01 (seven years ago) link
i think the whole idea should be a non-starter now, i think closers are basically the https://38.media.tumblr.com/cfc78865c263aa2b61bdbdea149525e9/tumblr_inline_mxybtzhwSD1r4xj1z.gif of MLB
― nomar, Monday, 23 January 2017 18:56 (seven years ago) link
You'd at least make an exception for Mariano?
― clemenza, Monday, 23 January 2017 19:02 (seven years ago) link
yeah i mean Mariano was I think on another level, far lower ERA than hoffman and double the WAR and all the postseason stuff. but i don't think he's "inner circle" or whatever, which is what his vote total will indicate.
― nomar, Monday, 23 January 2017 19:05 (seven years ago) link
how do we feel about andruw
despite his utter collapse at age 31, his numbers are almost there and he played some otherworldly defense
― mookieproof, Monday, 23 January 2017 19:59 (seven years ago) link
i think that unlike vizquel (to whom he is probably gonna be compared), andruw was a true superstar for a solid stretch of time
― k3vin k., Monday, 23 January 2017 20:59 (seven years ago) link
I think we got into this a couple years ago...Myself, Sandy Koufax excluded, a player who accumulated almost all his value before he was 30 should not be in the Hall of Fame.
― clemenza, Monday, 23 January 2017 22:59 (seven years ago) link
i dunno,, i mean his ten season run from age 20-29 was pretty amazing. he averaged about 6 WAR at that time. i'm not totally sold on him but if he got in i'd be cool with it.
― nomar, Monday, 23 January 2017 23:07 (seven years ago) link
Clemenza, i somehow misread that as you saying you were in the BBHOF
― why ruin a good tradition? (Will M.), Monday, 23 January 2017 23:08 (seven years ago) link
he said "should" -- clemenza should be in the HOF
― k3vin k., Monday, 23 January 2017 23:12 (seven years ago) link
Believe me, I accumulated all my value before I was 17 at best--I've just been killing time since then.
― clemenza, Monday, 23 January 2017 23:15 (seven years ago) link
I'll admit to a huge blind-spot with Jones: I'm not conversant with newer defensive metrics, and remain far more trusting of offensive numbers. To a certain extent, I'm still stuck on the eye-test when it comes to defense...I can confidently say Pillar's great, and I can be stubborn about saying Alomar was great, but with Jones, besides the awkward (again, for me--it doesn't bother everyone) shape of his career, I have to accept that 40% of his career value is tied up in defensive numbers that I find much more elusive than offensive or pitching stats. I'd rather see Jim Edmonds in there (they're close--Jones does a little better under JAWS).
― clemenza, Monday, 23 January 2017 23:27 (seven years ago) link
he did hit 434 homers and stole 152 bases, so it's not like he was *only* defense
and yeah it was a time of many dingers, but he's ahead of both piazza and ripken. decent counting stats considering the shape of his career
― mookieproof, Tuesday, 24 January 2017 00:17 (seven years ago) link
i'd probably put Edmonds in ahead of Jones but i think both should be in there tbh. i don't anticipate either getting in unless there's some miracle via the vet committee.
I think Walker will get in one day, speaking of underrated OFers. i think the vets will put him in eventually.
― nomar, Tuesday, 24 January 2017 01:59 (seven years ago) link
FG on andruw
― qualx, Tuesday, 24 January 2017 05:47 (seven years ago) link
are we resigned to ortiz getting in without much debate? lower WAR than jim rice, who i figured he'd spend his candidacy being compared to before he went and had his best season since 07
― qualx, Tuesday, 24 January 2017 05:51 (seven years ago) link
Likely behind the paywall, but James's Andruw piece from three years ago:
http://www.billjamesonline.com/andruw/?AuthorId=3&pg=6&F_All=y
I have done the best I could to place Jones in the "right" position as a defensive player, and, as I said, I have confidence that my system is generally right on a certain level. But I can’t prove that those who would give more weight to his defense are absolutely wrong, just as I don’t believe that they can prove that they’re right. But based on my understanding of the record, Jones’ fielding
a) Was only truly outstanding through 2002; after that his Gold Gloves were mostly just reputation, and
b) Was not of substantial enough value that we should consider him an all-time great player.
I would put Andruw in a class with Vada Pinson, Cesar Cedeno, Fred Lynn and perhaps a few others. Jimmy Wynn and Dale Murphy. These men, all center fielders, were all tremendous players when they were young--such tremendous players that they didn’t need to develop in order to become Hall of Famers; they merely needed to sustain their level of performance for a reasonably full career. But, for whatever reason, they weren’t able to do that, and fell short of a Hall of Fame standard.
I think he's revised his opinion a little upwards--he posted something yesterday that put Andruw as a B-level HOF'er, whereas Edmonds fell into the C category--but I'm not sure if he's in favor of induction yet.
― clemenza, Tuesday, 24 January 2017 12:28 (seven years ago) link
For me, if you dominate your position for ten straight years then you have a strong HOF argument. So I think Edmonds has been underrated.
On one hand I agree with clem about Andruw Jones but OTOH the age think seems arbitrary. Roy Halladay also had ten great years and literally nothing else but most of us think he's a clear HOFer. However Jones got fat and arguably wasted his talent whereas Halladay got injured which was a kind of fluke and not his fault, should this matter? My gut feeling is that it should, but again I'm not sure.
― NoTimeBeforeTime, Tuesday, 24 January 2017 13:36 (seven years ago) link
age thing, not think
― NoTimeBeforeTime, Tuesday, 24 January 2017 13:37 (seven years ago) link
i have absolutely no problem with david ortiz going into the hall of fame
― mookieproof, Tuesday, 24 January 2017 15:25 (seven years ago) link
Hope Edgar gets there first, but I think Ortiz is automatic at this point.
― clemenza, Tuesday, 24 January 2017 17:47 (seven years ago) link
Some cool pics of I-Rod visiting Puerto Rico today and tonight going around on the internet I saw on a baseball group on Facebook. He visited a children's hospital and then was a guest at the team he played winter ball back on.
― earlnash, Saturday, 28 January 2017 06:44 (seven years ago) link
Is there a chance for Scott Rolen to get in? or is he going to Edmondsed?
― Van Horn Street, Sunday, 29 January 2017 18:11 (seven years ago) link
I think he's headed for a Tim Raines-like extended stay on the ballot, but because things are moving more and more in a sabermetric direction, he will get in towards the end of his 10 years.
― clemenza, Sunday, 29 January 2017 19:01 (seven years ago) link
he's gonna have trouble getting 5% though, isn't he? the ballot is still crowded
― k3vin k., Sunday, 29 January 2017 19:04 (seven years ago) link