Another Canadian Icon Traded - The 2015 Toronto Blue Jays Thread

figured it was time.

we just officially lost Janssen, in addition to Cabrera, Lawrie, Morrow, Happ, Gose, Lind and a few of our young arms.
But we have gained Donaldson, Martin, Saunders, Smoak, Estrada and one Devon Travis!

the team is now a weird combo of youth and age, with a righty-heavy line-up, one too many catchers and some serious question marks at 2B and the bullpen. Should be fun!

at any rate, I always liked Janssen.

I remain resolutely optimistic. (Until they lost their first game--then it's complain, whine, deride.)

"lose"--I've already moved into past tense.

gonna miss colby. the club house presence, the interviews.

only shallow

http://www.bluebirdbanter.com/2015/1/31/7954407/examining-the-blue-jays-depth

TIL – the Blue Jays have a guy named Ezequiel Carrera.

Pillar and Tolleson are garbage. Hopefully Goins and Izturus can be otherworldly for complimentary stretches.
Don't even want to look at what they're listing as pitching depth.

i like Pillar's odds of being "otherworldly" over Goins or Izturus. he's young and did pretty well in the minors, his speed and defense translated well to the bigs, the only question is if his bat will.

and we should probably just sit a hockey goal at 2B until Travis is ready (tho Kawasaki brings enough value with his glove and GIFs that it make make his presence in the line-up more tolerable than the other options).

@CDNBaseballHOF
Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame 2015 Inductees are Carlos Delgado, Matt Stairs, Corey Koskie, Felipe Alou and Bob Elliott.

'bout time

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/12288422/toronto-blue-jays-move-closer-installing-natural-grass

From the little I've seen the new turf this year looks good, aesthetics wise. Deeper green and at least for now without those rubber pellets, should be less offensively ugly.

another canadian icon down with an injury until the allstar break.

some of us who are not hyperelectronified would like link to actual story instead of cryptic mystery posts

DUNEDIN, Fla. -- Toronto Blue Jays left fielder Michael Saunders stepped on a sprinkler while shagging fly balls Wednesday, tearing cartilage in his left knee and sidelining him until the All-Star break.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/12385936/michael-saunders-toronto-blue-jays-hurts-knee-due-sprinkler

just like mickey mantle

I don't think Mantle stepped on a sprinkler? Elliott Maddox did, during the two years the Yankees' home park was Shea.

ok, MM did, in the '51 WS

ban sprinklers

johan!

you know what doesn't need sprinklers? astroturf.

but in Florida?

just making a joke. everyone makes a fuss about how the skydome is the last stadium using artificial turf and apparently every ball player hates the stuff etc

valencia will start in left, everything will be ok. everything will be ok

i just got the name of this thread a few days ago and laughed harder than i should have, so thanks for that :)

signed johan santana also:
http://www.amazinavenue.com/2015/2/26/8118021/blue-jays-sign-former-mets-pitcher-johan-santana

oh someone mentioned it alrteady. oops

Saunders now out only 4-6 weeks! Apparently surgery showed the knee cartilage was worse than expected, so they just took a bunch of stuff out rather than trying to fix anything...and this shortens the recovery time.
suck it Pillar.

also they just signed Dayan Viciedo... so... ya. there's that.

bummer about the 4-6 week news. he didn't want to get that surgery because it causes arthritis later in life but i guess his hands were tied?

read somewhere he preferred this option anyways.

take that, aaron sanchez

russell martin needs to relearn how to say 'out'

was it like, a known quantity that this daniel norris dude lives in a van?
http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/12420393/top-blue-jays-prospect-daniel-norris-lives-own-code

new favorite player

the D Norris van coverage has been everywhere

copycats

edwing is having some trouble with the new batter's box rules https://pbs.twimg.com/tweet_video/B_RLiUJU8AA15IM.mp4

Daniel Norris:

http://www.vancouversun.com/cms/binary/10781747.jpg

obv has a gay cult following already

marcus stroman, torn acl, out for season

Please tell me you're...no; no joke there. That's awful.

ugh

my first reaction... "this is a joke right?"

very sad news, loved to see him play.

in memorandum
http://gamereax.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/StromanSlider.gif

Stroman out, Encarnacion is hurting, RIP 2015 Blue Jays.

At least it wasn't an arm injury, I guess.

I was aghast when I heard it was a bunting drill--for what, in preparation for the World Series?--but he was of course fielding bunts. I don't know if the year's a write-off or not. 15 wins/20-25 quality starts would have been a good year. That second number will be hard to pull out of thin air.

kyle drabek is ready for his closeup

I don't get some of the outrage over how he was hurt. like baseball players shouldnt be practicing baseball.

Bob McCown this afternoon, with a splash of rhetorical incredulity: "Would you trade Marcus Stroman for Noah Syndergaard? No..."

Huh? It's hard for me to think of a reason why I wouldn't trade Stroman for Syndergaard at this point. I mean, I like Stroman fine, he's a good pitcher and a great personality, but Syndergaard has two years on him and much more imposing stuff. Unless you're convinced he's going to hurt his arm or flame out, I don't know what McCown means.

Also--thinking back to the Cardinals letting Pujols walk away--I wonder if this wouldn't be the perfect moment to trade Bautista for (if possible) a front-line pitcher. The fan base of course would go nuts, just as I'm sure happened in St. Louis (although maybe their fans are a little more trusting of management). But Bautista just turned 35, and he's a free agent in 2016. Because of the season he just had and the iconic home run, he's much more liable to be overvalued right now than a year from now. As hard as it would be to sell to the public--least of all after AA leaving--this might be the optimal moment to trade him.

You're not the first person I know who suggested trading Bautista now. I see the logic, but I strongly disagree. We need to be all-in next year, the window is now and the team will need to be rehauled in '17 anyhow.

i always wonder why people pick Bats instead of EE in trade speculation. is it his age? more notoriety? or the fact he can still sort of play a position?
i think there would be waaay less backlash if EE were to be dealt than Bats.

For all the reasons you mention, you could get much more for Bautista--I think EE's trade value would be significantly limited by the reality that he can't do much but DH (even if he does that very well). Is Pompey ready to step into the lineup yet?

I realize that trading Bautista would result in an avalanche of bad publicity (on the homefront, at least). Five years ago I believed strongly in the idea of retaining players who were the face of the franchise, even if it meant overpaying them a little. The Pujols signing, among other things, have brought me around on that.

Anyway, probably all moot--extremely unlikely to happen.

trading a guy and letting a guy walk tends to get two sort of different responses from fans tho.
i'm also wondering because it might affect things after 2016. Both Bats and EE are up. i'm not sure if we can afford both – even if we don't get Price or some other expensive arm. who would we keep if only one? my guess is Bautista. he's older – might might also except a year less because of that, but he's also the face of the franchise. but alot of what happens will depend on next year. if one guy completely falls apart, i guess that will make up managements' mind for them.

I was looking at the beginning of this thread, and I'd forgotten all about Johan Santana.

(From Wikipedia): On June 27, Santana announced that he was ending his 2015 season due to a toe infection, and plans to resume his comeback in 2016.

Is he still under our control? Are we sure we need to go after David Price?

Really hate that last post...pretend it's not there.

i'm also wondering because it might affect things after 2016. Both Bats and EE are up. i'm not sure if we can afford both

Regardless of the cost, they're both on the wrong side of 30 and have rarely been healthy for an entire season. They may be past their primes in 2017, and EE is a DH so his usefulness is limited. They might still be productive but to count on them for 40 HR's isn't realistic.

The younger guys who will eventually take over need to be on the roster right now and getting significant playing time. For instance, you can look at the Cubs' roster and pick out six or seven guys who should be integral pieces in their hopeful 2017-18 playoff run(s), and then you look at our roster and you have Donaldson and ... ????

Slight aside, I was looking at our team page on B-R and was surprised to see who was second on the team in WAR this year (after Donaldson). Big hint: his defense boosted his WAR past many of the more obvious names.

ya – I was surprised how much value we got out of Pillar too.

but we do have more than Donaldosn hanging around. Devon Travis, Marcus Stroman, Pillar, Pompey (hopefully he pans out), Osuna and Sanchez (along with old man Tulo and Martin for a while). i don't expect any of these young guys to be hall of famers or anything – but it's a solid base going forward.

I was aware of those WAR faces on the Jays page throughout the year; Pillar was always in the top 4-5 because of his defense, and he really began to move up when he started hitting the last two months. Pompey was amazing in the post-season--does he hit enough to warrant an everyday job?

Only caught a bit of Shapiro yesterday. Sounds very much like a philosophical split: methodical consensus decisions vs. AA's maverick-free-rein guy. Which I understand from both sides, and I'm not sure which approach more often produces results. Anyway, I hope people start to calm down. If they start off with a couple of good months, that'll be the end of it. If they start off disastrously, well, have fun, Mr. Shapiro--probably won't be a lot of "give him time" goodwill out there.

Good article by Jose. http://www.theplayerstribune.com/jose-bautista-bat-flip/

Signed Estrada for 2 years/$26 million. Probably rules out Greinke or Price.

I don't think it would - iirc they have ~35-40mm to play with. A slight back loading of the last 4-5 years and it works out. Tho I honestly don't expect them to land either. I figure Zimmerman would be a more reasonable target.

This Cleveland makeover's starting to get a little creepy. The other day the FAN said they're about to offer Eric Wedge a job "in some capacity." Not that that would give the current manager reason to start looking over his shoulder or anything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goh7zOeOS_U

Haven't read anything yet, just guessing: they're looking at Pompey for left, looking at a platoon, or looking to move Devon Travis out there when he returns. Would this be a shutdown bullpen on the order of the Royals (or Yankees): Sanchez, Storen, Cecil, Osuna? I don't know, and don't know if they're looking at Osuna or Storen as closer.

you think they're that sold on Goins? i don't really see the need to move Devon, between the inevitable injuries to him and Tulo and rest days, I'm sure Ryan will be getting enough playing time.

The bandwagon hadn't pulled into my neighborhood early last season, so I don't have a good sense of Travis. Myself, I was really, really impressed with Goins--his defense was incredible. If he hits .250 like last year, I think he's a major plus. (Indeed, his WAR was 2.7 in 128 games.) The club, I don't know.

Who's leadoff now? I don't think they'll try Tulowitzki again. I can maybe see Pillar there, but he'd need another 50 points of OBP. I guess Travis or Pompey.

when your lineup has tulo, donaldson, jose and edwin, i think you need to re-think the concept of "leadoff" and just plug them all up at the top.

That's what a guy at work said--put Donaldson leadoff. I don't think I'd want that...I guess I've got the residue of traditional ideas about that spot: good OBP, speed (not necessarily stolen bases), some extra-base pop. The first two describe Donaldson, but obviously he exceeds "some" by quite a bit. I like him second or third.

i guess you would go with your best OBP guy at leadoff then. which would be Bautista. which might cause a minor uprising within the casual fan masses. i could live with Travis or Pompey at leadoff (assuming Pomp bounces back).

happy 60th to rance mulliniks

@BlueJays
We are pleased to announce that work will begin the week of Feb 8 to install a regulation dirt infield in time for the 2016 regular season

i'm a little surprised. this was supposed to take years to get going.

gotta save tulo

can't they just strap turf to the underside of his cleats?!

oh shit. i guess i misunderstood – it's literally just the dirt area and not any of part of the field/grass etc

Wait, so what they have now is some kind of synthetic dirt?

bautista wants to play another five years, has given the jays the $ figure that will require

plus, hometown discount: "Doesn’t exist. Not in my world..."

tbf he's been grossly underpaid on his current contract, but i don't think that's going to help too much when he's a 36-year-old free agent

Time for a new thread, Thermo. "I'm Still Angry at Ben Revere"...something more positive--it was a great year.

Wha? Whym I in charge of thread makin here?!

It has to do with Fermat's Theorem, or Euler's Conjecture, or symmetry, or something mathematical--can't remember exactly.

I don't remember where Bautista's current contract placed him on the spectrum when it was signed--$64 million/5 years in 2012--but if he's been grossly underpaid the past couple of years, isn't that short-sightedness on his part (and quite common in baseball)? You sign for what you think you're worth, the market changes, and eventually you're a bargain. Did he really give them a "hometown discount" in 2011?

he gave them them the "last season may have been a fluke" discount.

apparently the Jays almost dealt Saunders for Jay Bruce?!

what amazes me the most is that there's a player with a no trade clause, who *doesn't* have the Jays on it!

haha i saw somewhere that the jays *were* on his no-trade list last year but he took them off sometime recently

i think the Jays should just automatically trade for anyone who who omits them from their list. as a kind of "thank you".

he gave them them the "last season may have been a fluke" discount

Yes--with a bit of "I've already turned 30" discount thrown in for good measure.

there's a lot of money in baseball these days, but i don't think anyone is going to offer jbats $150m for his age 36-40 seasons

I think it's a huge bluff by Bautista -- from his perspective if the Jays are dumb enough to give him the money then great, and at the very least they'll be scared enough to go all in this season because they (Jays' ownership) know JBats will walk.

What he hasn't considered is option c), that the new/old Jays regime doesn't give a crap about winning or losing or his contract demands.

I'm not sure what he was thinking. He must realize the team wasn't likely to keep both him and EE (not at market value); so I do t get why'd he be so rigid right out of the gates.

No harm really in playing hardball with management.

uhya... behind closed doors maybe.

well actually yes – the harm maybe be management decides to pay out the other guy well into his 30's, who will probably be DH'ing for most of his contract instead of you!

All the more reason to be aggressive now! He knows he's competing against an equally popular teammate and there's only going to be room for one of them on the team, isn't it better to go on the offensive and dictate the terms of the debate?

I think he also realizes that the only way to get our cheapskate ownership to deal with him fairly (if he's interested in staying with the team) is by making his demands public and getting the fans on his side.

I'd be interested in a study that compares Bautista to another set of similarly-skilled 35-year-olds. (Could be difficult to find a large enough pool of players--Bautista's career arc has been pretty unusual.) Seems to me that the biggest risk he's taking is that he heads into the break this year hitting .225 with 11 home runs or something. That wouldn't be out of the question for someone his age.

His age-based similarity scores (on B-R) list names like Jason Bay, JD Drew, David Justice, and Jay Buhner. All of them were good through Age 34, and all of them pretty much fell apart within the next couple of years. But none of them were as good as Bautista has been from Ages 30-34.

Darryl Strawberry appears as a comp, but it's misleading -- Straw was great in his 20's and then declined, JBats had his first great season at age 29, but if you compare their career stats at Age 34, they're similar.

So yeah, finding a good comp is tough.

Oh please:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/14943065/goose-gossage-rips-jose-bautista-toronto-blue-jays-nerds-ruining-baseball

I suspect half the reason people my age remember Gossage so well is because of the flair and colour he brought to the game--he was a character. I know I've said that walk-off bedlam for a meaningless game in June can be a bit much, but the bat-flip game wasn't that.

worst thing about north american sports in general and baseball in particular: old white guys getting mad at non-whites for being insufficiently reticent.

someone started a new thread:

In the Unlikely Event Drew Hutchison Posts a Sub-5.00 ERA, How Will You React? (Toronto Blue Jays 2016)

Yes, someone...I thought I was on the new one, oops.

You're right--I didn't even mention the underlying racial implications. I don't know much about Gossage the person, so it's not an accusation, but you can't avoid acknowledging that. Anyway, Bautista handled it well, and I like the Harper quote in there.

haha hadn't noticed you were the thread starter on the other one