also interesting is how clothing is adjusted for ethnic populations - my friend (who's of European descent) bought a dress shirt in Japan that fits perfectly except the cuffs come down to approximately the middle of his forearms
― a being that goes on two legs and is ungrateful (dyao), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:25 (fourteen years ago) link
http://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=ijp.085.1423.fig001.jpg
― ❊❁❄❆❇❃✴❈plaxico❈✴❃❇❆❄❁❊ (I know, right?), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:26 (fourteen years ago) link
i wish clothing was sized for my ethnicity bc i am an ape
― permanent response lopp (harbl), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:27 (fourteen years ago) link
that is an extreme example, though, sarah, and the false choice in operation is the choice of rioting afterwards, which has nothing to do with the actual sport and everything to do with uncontrollable tribal tension, whipped up by media hype and triggered by the lie which states that defeat is terminal
― cockles (country matters), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:27 (fourteen years ago) link
no! i dont think u understand it right :(
― permanent response lopp (harbl), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:28 (fourteen years ago) link
I like Debord and all but I'm still back with the old-school marxists trying to make sure I'm fed and have a roof over my head and don't die from the latest, most 'fashionable' disease. Semiotics is fun, but when you have to wear clothes, sometimes even just to avoid exposure to the elements, I tend to not fret about the vanity sizing and whether they're trying to fuck with me (I assume they are) and just goes with what works for me or what I can make to work.
― Le présent se dégrade, d'abord en histoire, puis en (Michael White), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:28 (fourteen years ago) link
tbh whatever is on sale is pretty ok
― ❊❁❄❆❇❃✴❈plaxico❈✴❃❇❆❄❁❊ (I know, right?), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:29 (fourteen years ago) link
Debord's all style, no substance
― a being that goes on two legs and is ungrateful (dyao), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:29 (fourteen years ago) link
yeah u have to ignore it to prevent yourself from going nutz. i have to accept that i cannot wear a burlap sack with holes cut out for my arms to work.
― permanent response lopp (harbl), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:29 (fourteen years ago) link
xp dyao: There are definitely brands that cater to African-American women that design pants with more room in back. I should probably suck up the racial awkwardness and get some.
― free jazz and mumia (sarahel), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:31 (fourteen years ago) link
do they make pants designed for ppl of irish extraction people with no butt? i need those
― permanent response lopp (harbl), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:32 (fourteen years ago) link
ikr, please research this
bought a dress shirt in Japan that fits perfectly except the cuffs come down to approximately the middle of his forearms
I had some money to blow on a suit once in Japan. I had been modelling there and all the clothes I modelled fit nicely so I was surprised that I could not find one single suit nice or vile that came close to fitting me. I have also noted, of late, that discount or cheap places like Costco, etc., never have my size of underwear - everything is a size too large.
― Le présent se dégrade, d'abord en histoire, puis en (Michael White), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:33 (fourteen years ago) link
subtract "people" xxp
― permanent response lopp (harbl), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:33 (fourteen years ago) link
lol sometimes walking through macy's or places like that when they have a very small section of clothes that will fit people of my size and then a "woman" section of ugly bedazzle clothes for larger ladies that is enormous but if i was a larger lady i would be mad at all the false choices therein. and whytf is it called "woman"?
― permanent response lopp (harbl), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:35 (fourteen years ago) link
do i not? :(
the superbowl, as a flagship sporting event, is completely open to accusations of 'false choosing', from its description as a continuous sporting pinnacle (great sport can happen anywhere sport is organised) to the razzmatazz of anointing one team and condemning the other in such definitive terms. you seem to be saying that the sport itself is a false choice; that the creation of a sports team with the ability to reach the superbowl is not in fact a great civic achievement but an empty narcotic for the townsfolk to devour. all i can say is that the creation of sports teams outside of a corporate context generally happened because people from a certain collective urban space wanted to play team sports, and organised themselves accordingly. if both team and stadium subsequently developed, it was merely to keep up with the competition. only at the highest level do teams overreach themselves and sell out to the corporate spectacle.
― cockles (country matters), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:35 (fourteen years ago) link
haha one of the nice things about living in Hong Kong is that all the clothing here fits me - whereas in the US I got dirty looks asking if things came in a "S", and I was too ashamed to go shop in the Boys section
― a being that goes on two legs and is ungrateful (dyao), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:36 (fourteen years ago) link
what is the general gist of this competitive sports question, I want to get in on this action
sport is the new opium of the masses, discus
― cockles (country matters), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:37 (fourteen years ago) link
I think this speaks to good old-fashioned capitalism as muc as anything - where our expectations and sense of entitlement run into someone else's business model. We wear perhaps the most disposable clothing and more of it, on average, than any generation in history but it's also comparitively cheap.
― Le présent se dégrade, d'abord en histoire, puis en (Michael White), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:38 (fourteen years ago) link
that is an extreme example, though, sarah, and the false choice in operation is the choice of rioting afterwards
No, the false choice - as Debord would posit - is to be rah rah football, as opposed to focusing their energies on the systems that are fucking up their lives ... though perhaps that's less Debord's school, and more old school Adorno - Marxist/structuralist. Granted, the role of posh athletics like cricket, golf, etc. in society and for their fans, is significantly different than the NFL in poor and working class communities.
― free jazz and mumia (sarahel), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:39 (fourteen years ago) link
Discus is the new sport/opiate of the masses?
― Le présent se dégrade, d'abord en histoire, puis en (Michael White), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:40 (fourteen years ago) link
yeah, and think of all the jobs it gives to those fuckers in China!
― a being that goes on two legs and is ungrateful (dyao), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:40 (fourteen years ago) link
Glad someone else picked up on this!
― free jazz and mumia (sarahel), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:41 (fourteen years ago) link
all i can say is that the creation of sports teams outside of a corporate context generally happened because people from a certain collective urban space wanted to play team sports, and organised themselves accordingly.
The history of sport and its organization and financing in Britain and the US is rather different.
― Le présent se dégrade, d'abord en histoire, puis en (Michael White), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:42 (fourteen years ago) link
cf GAA
― ❊❁❄❆❇❃✴❈plaxico❈✴❃❇❆❄❁❊ (I know, right?), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:43 (fourteen years ago) link
nah i mean it's just a system it's not like this is part of a spectacle and that isn't. and it's not automatically a bad thing either (imo). what it says is the existence of sports teams "resurrects false archaic oppositions, regionalisms and racism which serve to raise the vulgar hierarchic ranks of consumption to a preposterous ontological superiority." the development of the stadium and fan base and whatever isn't happening outside of that system, no matter how organic or tribal it might be. xp
― permanent response lopp (harbl), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:43 (fourteen years ago) link
Based on my recollection of Myron's Discobolus, there's not going to much room for corporate logos unless dudes want to get tats.
― Le présent se dégrade, d'abord en histoire, puis en (Michael White), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:44 (fourteen years ago) link
Here it's a pretty classic example of Marxist "this is what's wrong with capitalism."
― free jazz and mumia (sarahel), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:45 (fourteen years ago) link
all sports can be summed up as an endless riffs on that one scene in Troy when Brad Pitt jumped up and skewered the shit out of that other dude with the axe and everybody on Brad Pitt's side cheered
― a being that goes on two legs and is ungrateful (dyao), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:46 (fourteen years ago) link
The GAA's even different, still, right plaxico? Didin't they JUST allow non-Irish games in Croke Park?
― Le présent se dégrade, d'abord en histoire, puis en (Michael White), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:46 (fourteen years ago) link
temporarily
― ❊❁❄❆❇❃✴❈plaxico❈✴❃❇❆❄❁❊ (I know, right?), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:47 (fourteen years ago) link
GAA is part of irish cultural identity movements of the early free state and is still hella political tho obv a lot lot less than it once was
also the fact that it is entirely amateur players but at a high level who have an actual attatchment to the team they play for kind of changes the bodies for hire dynamic of most pro sports
― ❊❁❄❆❇❃✴❈plaxico❈✴❃❇❆❄❁❊ (I know, right?), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:49 (fourteen years ago) link
also players being nationally famous but also having regular jobs and being normal ppl is pretty strange
Lol!
― free jazz and mumia (sarahel), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:50 (fourteen years ago) link
posh athletics like cricket
at my club, where i play, i am by a country mile the most RP-voiced member. cricket is as beloved and practiced in working-class communities as it is among the toffs of the world. especially in the Indian subcontinent, where everyone plays.
one can have a great interest both in sporting pursuits and in oppressive corporate systems. to block everything except sport out is a false choice, yes, but for those of us who can handle both entertainments and socio-political machinations, there isn't even a choice to be made.
i am sure many NFL fans are equally capable of seeing the bigger picture, even in the heat of recent on-field events. don't let the actions of a few idiots cloud your perspective of sport and its (hugely important) role.
harbl, the idea of 'supporting one's local team' is perhaps a fallacy. i know plenty of people who don't, people who support for far more logical reasons. myself, i support my local football team foremost, because they are likeable and because i feel an instinctive tribal affinity for SE London, but when it comes to favouring other teams, i try to reason on purely sporting terms, and not let 'regionalism' or 'archaic opposition' cloud my judgement. it's fun to have old rivals, but i agree there are those who take it too far. there ain't nothing racist about supporting any football team unless that team is Athletic Bilbao, who still employ a Basque-only policy in order to retain some sort of quasi-national identity. they're as much an ongoing political project as a football team, though, and i wouldn't describe them as corporate whores, razzle-dazzle of La Liga aside.
― cockles (country matters), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:52 (fourteen years ago) link
I disagree and oddly enough, I think it's more capitalist in 'socialist' Europe. Here (US) we have 'leagues' which sell franchises. In Europe, they mostly stem from the FA model in England which codified a gentleman's game in the mid 1860's and which oversee all competitions which desire their stamp of approval. The individual clubs are often massive examples of dynamic capitalism whereas American teams, for the most part, have wealth sharing and drafts and other systems to try to ensure that nobody gets TOO big or too small. Sure, we have the Yankees and other behemoths like the Red Sox, but no-one is really ever allowed to fail entirely and the leagues protect their own.
― Le présent se dégrade, d'abord en histoire, puis en (Michael White), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:54 (fourteen years ago) link
oh, there is something a bit racist about Lazio and Chievo as well but I'm not getting into all this now
― cockles (country matters), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:54 (fourteen years ago) link
field sports are good to watch if you are a painter because they are full of different ideas about using a space and movement
― ❊❁❄❆❇❃✴❈plaxico❈✴❃❇❆❄❁❊ (I know, right?), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:54 (fourteen years ago) link
...also Glasgows Celtic and Rangers...yawn...stupid...
ok. i can't explain good enough.
― permanent response lopp (harbl), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:54 (fourteen years ago) link
xp there is probably a more interesting semiotic analysis in that i think
― ❊❁❄❆❇❃✴❈plaxico❈✴❃❇❆❄❁❊ (I know, right?), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:55 (fourteen years ago) link
Lj can aorrect me if I'm wrong but I thought most of the early football (soccer) clubs were local workingmen's sunday affairs as leisure and a day off became a reality in Victorian Britain. In the US, iIrc, many of the early teams were semi-pro 'exhibitions' that toured in very ramshackle, to say the least, orbits that only barely could be called a league.
― Le présent se dégrade, d'abord en histoire, puis en (Michael White), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:57 (fourteen years ago) link
Definitely something racist about Lazio.
whereas American teams, for the most part, have wealth sharing and drafts and other systems to try to ensure that nobody gets TOO big or too small. Sure, we have the Yankees and other behemoths like the Red Sox, but no-one is really ever allowed to fail entirely and the leagues protect their own.
But this is a classic example of monopolistic behavior.
― free jazz and mumia (sarahel), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:57 (fourteen years ago) link
One of the reasons I really love the look of baseball.
― Le présent se dégrade, d'abord en histoire, puis en (Michael White), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:58 (fourteen years ago) link
I don't know anything about European sports/futbol but is there anything analogous to the bending/changing of rules by American sports leagues for profit- I'm specifically thinking of baseball and the home run ball, from the introduction of a livelier baseball after Babe Ruth to the whole blind-eye during the steroids era
― a being that goes on two legs and is ungrateful (dyao), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:59 (fourteen years ago) link
i have never actually seen baseball played outside of movies where gang of rapscallions takes it all the way to the little-league finals
― ❊❁❄❆❇❃✴❈plaxico❈✴❃❇❆❄❁❊ (I know, right?), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 20:59 (fourteen years ago) link
Honestly, I'm not into sports, and don't know enough about the structure and roles they play in the lives of "ordinary" people to be able to contribute well to this topic.
― free jazz and mumia (sarahel), Tuesday, 11 August 2009 21:01 (fourteen years ago) link