one thing imo strongly identifying as a gamer is kinda frivolous and consumerist, like if thats yr thing in life u might not be doing that good
― lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:09 (nine years ago) link
i don't necessarily think being a 'gamer' (at least how i've understood it) is frivolous and consumerist. yes, it can be, if you organize your identity around your game purchases. but you could be very active in, eg, the IF community, write your own games, play other ppl's games, write reviews + give feedback, and that's a totally different emphasis. or like hardcore board gamers or war gamers, i've never thought of them as particularly consumerist (even tho you do have to buy the games in those cases, but that's not what distinguishes the hobby).
― Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:15 (nine years ago) link
yeah idk theres just something very indicative of contemporary dysfunction in strongly identifying with entertainment imo
― lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:17 (nine years ago) link
more so than identifying w/ cinema, or literature?
― Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:17 (nine years ago) link
pretty similar prob but im sure some differences cld be teased out
― lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:19 (nine years ago) link
if you write your own games i give you a pass but im sure thats less than like .01% of gamers
its consumerist but also involves tech-condescension and virtual competition. its like a perfect storm for the alpha nerd supermen
― am0n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:20 (nine years ago) link
i'm v. sympathetic to the idea that capitalism has basically totally subsumed/co-opted all these creative endeavors, but i still believe (and continue to identify as a music fan, film fan, lit fan, game fan, etc) and search out in these "entertainments" resistance or at least the opiate-void.
― Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:21 (nine years ago) link
i've written my own games, tho not in many years. generally i believe that creation is the best way to resist the hegemony but also i'm very lazy
feel like the game aspect reduces the ability to convey profundity that movies and books sometimes have but still being a reader or a movie buff who cares
― lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:22 (nine years ago) link
i mean im both of those things and i even love games tho not so much video ones but i dont build my identity around any of that
― lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:23 (nine years ago) link
depends on the game. i've had profound experiences in games that are irreproducible in lit + film (in civ, in dwarf fortress), not to mention the kind of ludic expressivity that other mediums can't capture - the participatory/improv element.
― Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:24 (nine years ago) link
what does a lag00n build his identity around?
*bro-hoof*
― am0n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:25 (nine years ago) link
free spirit. lucid dreamer. citizen of the world. bacon fanatic. uncle.
― lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:25 (nine years ago) link
video game lifestyle is kinda like the heroin lifestyle only fatter
― example (crüt), Monday, 8 September 2014 17:27 (nine years ago) link
i should clarify that 'gamer' is not at the top of my list of identifications. my social/relationship and religious affiliations take precedence. but considering how many hours i spend gaming in my life it would be silly i think to say that it had nothing to do w/ how i see myself.
― Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:27 (nine years ago) link
― Mordy, Monday, September 8, 2014 1:24 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
yeah im open to the idea that games can convey profundity, its a p interesting question, def a different profundity than books or movies, tho i do think the losing/winning binary game aspect tends to hit a different part of the mind
― lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:28 (nine years ago) link
like chess can be profound, right? i'm not a huge chess guy but i've played games that - if not profound - at least felt deeply immersive + enriching.
― Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:29 (nine years ago) link
it can def be very compelling and satisfying but idk if it reveals deep truths
― lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:31 (nine years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnqj31VPNoE
― stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Monday, 8 September 2014 17:33 (nine years ago) link
mulling that over i'm not sure we cd agree on a version of deep truth that wd include other art-forms but exclude all games?
― Daphnis Celesta, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:33 (nine years ago) link
maybe the deepest game would be one you lose every time
― lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:34 (nine years ago) link
in the rough mental schemata i've built gaming in general as associated w/ game theory as the kind of deep truth / philosophical deep structure. also there's a lot of writing about how games access 'playing' as like a fundamental, primordial human drive. this is stuff i used to think about a lot in undergrad (and read about a lot - there is some decent academic work in the field lately) but haven't really dealt w/ as of late.
― Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:34 (nine years ago) link
oh so Dark Souls or Ninja Gaiden
― stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Monday, 8 September 2014 17:35 (nine years ago) link
nethack
― Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:35 (nine years ago) link
ha yeah, that or Tetris
― stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Monday, 8 September 2014 17:36 (nine years ago) link
sure there are indie games that deliberately do that kind of thing but feel like they fail as games
― Daphnis Celesta, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:36 (nine years ago) link
yup
― lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:37 (nine years ago) link
in the same way that most people won't ride for clumsy didacticism in other artforms
― Daphnis Celesta, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:37 (nine years ago) link
i'm not sure what you're responding to now, NV, but like tetris + super hexagon are to me the purest distillation of video games and also the most personally satisfying. my proudest (llol) gaming accomplishment of the last year or so was "beating" super hexagon.
― Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:38 (nine years ago) link
― Mordy, Monday, September 8, 2014 1:34 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
sure games activate deep human things but do they have anything to say about it or are they just pushing yr buttons over and over
― lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:38 (nine years ago) link
spelunky
― am0n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:40 (nine years ago) link
sorry for obscurity Mordy i was contemplating those kind of "art" games that deliberately subvert ludic pleasure to make some comment on something, maybe on play itself
― Daphnis Celesta, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:41 (nine years ago) link
like some feted but ultimately kinda shitty IF has done
we've definitely done some "games as art" threads elsewhere btw just in case anybody is unhappy about derail
― Daphnis Celesta, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:42 (nine years ago) link
i'd want to talk about specific IF (or other) games just bc i think some are tremendous works (galatea, slouching towards bedlam, varicella) and some even celebrated works (photopia, curses) are kinda meh.
― Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:43 (nine years ago) link
but yeah, i find games that don't actually let you play very dissatisfying - whether they're Uncharted cut-scene on-rails games, or Gone Home
― Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:46 (nine years ago) link
Photopia is def one i think is a tawdry thing that fails as game whereas yeah your a-list certainly is more successful as playable games that want to create an aesthetic experience
― Daphnis Celesta, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:46 (nine years ago) link
Conversation has suddenly sped up so I'm probably skipping a lot of other points here, but re: i do think the losing/winning binary game aspect tends to hit a different part of the mind - a lot of games don't use this binary. If you want examples try any sandbox game, and a bunch of IF only counts as having a win condition if you consider yourself as having "won" a book or film when you get to the end of it.
― emil.y, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:51 (nine years ago) link
you can be an enthusiast (and even a creator) of something in a field without proclaiming an identity around it.douglas adams probably didn't even have "IF pioneer" on his tombstone.
― Philip Nunez, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:52 (nine years ago) link
yeah but is it good as a game xp
― lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:52 (nine years ago) link
douglas adams' IF games are nigh unplayable ime lol, but i'd be surprised if he didn't (and if ppl like adam cadre, emily short, etc don't) see their identities as being somewhat intertwined w/ the games that they design.
― Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:53 (nine years ago) link
And yes, games with non-binary conditions can be fucking awesome as games. I don't even get how this is up for discussion, really.
― emil.y, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:55 (nine years ago) link
When I think of depth in gaming what comes to mind are certain puzzlers and platformers where one needs to spend a lot of time (or a lot of deaths) experimenting within a geometrical structure and learning its complexities. That to me is when gaming feels deep, when it succeeds in facilitating deep immersion in something highly abstract. I don't know if this counts as 'deep truth' - it's truth as pertaining to some tiny pocket of the universe defined by fixed rules and starting conditions.
― jmm, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:56 (nine years ago) link
i'm reading this old interview about the hitchhiker's text game he co-wrote and he definitely comes across as more "#1 beatles fan" than "IF dude" even while being pretty excited about the medium ("this is the first game that lies to you!")
― Philip Nunez, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:56 (nine years ago) link
― emil.y, Monday, September 8, 2014 1:55 PM (52 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
well no one seems to play them for one thing
― lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:56 (nine years ago) link
oops! sorry, i thought for a second we were talking about scott adams. yes, i'm sure douglas adams mostly thought of himself as a fiction author, surely
― Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:57 (nine years ago) link
its ok to identify as a 'gamer', but if your whole identity is based around being a 'gamer' and the subculture that goes around it then it becomes a problem, like a steady diet of pizza and nothing else. e.g. just reading about 'swatting', where live streamers are pranked by calling in a SWAT team on them. what other subculture would come up with such idiocy?
― ( X '____' )/ (zappi), Monday, 8 September 2014 17:58 (nine years ago) link
this is the guy w/ the unplayable IF games:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Adams_(game_designer)
― Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:58 (nine years ago) link