I have played text adventures and LucasArts-style things for hours and hours until I am blue blue blue, and I seldom get past the first or second puzzle, and never, ever-not-once, halfway. I have shown Varicella to someone who doesn't play games at all (Marianna lcl from ILE in fact) and within a day she was further than I'd been in twenty.
Do you learn this thing (and how?) or are you just born with it or something?
― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 01:15 (eighteen years ago) link
also, see Old Man Murray's Death of Adventure Gaming
― kingfish orange creamsicle (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 04:08 (eighteen years ago) link
― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 04:42 (eighteen years ago) link
http://www.ifarchive.org/if-archive/info/Craft.Of.Adventure.pdf
the bill of rights and the stuff on what makes a puzzle
― Britain's Obtusest Shepherd (Alan), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 12:27 (eighteen years ago) link
― Ste (Fuzzy), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 14:12 (eighteen years ago) link
― Laura H. (laurah), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 14:50 (eighteen years ago) link
I miss Old Man Murray.
― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 9 November 2005 15:51 (eighteen years ago) link
― Jdubz (ex machina), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 16:18 (eighteen years ago) link
― Laura H. (laurah), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 16:42 (eighteen years ago) link
i'm looking at you, hitch-hikers
― Britain's Obtusest Shepherd (Alan), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 16:48 (eighteen years ago) link
― Jdubz (ex machina), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 16:52 (eighteen years ago) link
― Jdubz (ex machina), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 16:53 (eighteen years ago) link
It's like the gamer application of Chekhov's Gun:
"If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. If it's not going to be fired, it shouldn't be hanging there."
― kingfish orange creamsicle (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 17:11 (eighteen years ago) link
And that's where we differ, you crazy rogueist. I don't play video games to face harsh, brutal realities. I play video games for pleasure and escapism. If a game starts laying the smackdown on me for trying something silly, I personally feel less inclined to deviate from more obvious and safe paths/actions, because I don't want to "die." Such is the natural psychological result of "punishment."
Of course, this can go to the other extreme and become totally silly (e.g. FPSs where you can absorb hundreds of bullets), but in my mind adventure games are puzzle solving games that above all should encourage creativity, not simulations that owe us rogueism at any cost. Realism is the false grail here.
― Laura H. (laurah), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 17:23 (eighteen years ago) link
"If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. If it's not going to be fired, it shouldn't be hanging there."-- kingfish orange creamsicle
That's a good point. It's important to realize, I suppose, that the intent on the part of artists/writers that goes into crafting media cannot be applied to our lives--that the items in our environment are not necessarily there "for a reason." Still, I kind of like thinking that they are.
― Laura H. (laurah), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 17:27 (eighteen years ago) link
THERE'S THESE THINGS CALLED SAVE GAMES
― Jdubz (ex machina), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 17:39 (eighteen years ago) link
― JimD (JimD), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 17:39 (eighteen years ago) link
I thought you were against the proliferation of save points. And that doesn't change my principle point at all. If anything, tt creates an anxiety (you know, the one that makes you feel like you need to save your game every five fucking seconds) that really isn't enjoyable or necessary in adventure games.
JimD OTM.
― Laura H. (laurah), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 17:48 (eighteen years ago) link
THERE'RE THESE THINGS CALLED SAVE GAMES
― Laura H. (laurah), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 17:54 (eighteen years ago) link
Do not twist my words.
― Jdubz (ex machina), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 18:01 (eighteen years ago) link
http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsOrAre/bwwzz/Post.htm
― Jdubz (ex machina), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 18:03 (eighteen years ago) link
Well, exactly. That's why I think the "doing something stupid should kill you" principle doesn't really apply so well here. Especially in re: Lucasarts games where the vast majority of what you're supposed to do is stupid things.
― Laura H. (laurah), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 19:37 (eighteen years ago) link
― Jdubz (ex machina), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 19:51 (eighteen years ago) link
― Casuistry (Chris P), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 20:36 (eighteen years ago) link
― kingfish orange creamsicle (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 20:46 (eighteen years ago) link
― Laura H. (laurah), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 20:54 (eighteen years ago) link
I recall there often being puzzles in these games that seemed designed to intentionally contradict or bypass common sense and to generally fuck with the player. Satisfaction is derived from resolving this sense of frustration. Death is not a punishment in this case, it is essentially a glorified version of the "I do not understand" messages that occur when you use exotic words like "jump" or "put".
http://tmd.alienharmony.com/rw/sq2/pictures/pinkunz1.gif
"Say the word."
― allen riley (allenriley), Thursday, 10 November 2005 08:24 (eighteen years ago) link
― allen riley (allenriley), Thursday, 10 November 2005 08:25 (eighteen years ago) link
― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 10 November 2005 09:04 (eighteen years ago) link
a lot of games replace "you are the dead" with annoying punishments, which have much the same inconvenience as restoring from a saved game, but without that meta- discontinuity.
― Britain's Obtusest Shepherd (Alan), Thursday, 10 November 2005 11:00 (eighteen years ago) link
Since then I've followed Laura's tactic of "collect everything".
― Onimo (GerryNemo), Thursday, 10 November 2005 11:31 (eighteen years ago) link
That puzzle in Old Mans Murrays article is madness, obtaining the parts for the disguise and that. I don't think my puzzles will be anywhere near as complex.
― Ste (Fuzzy), Thursday, 10 November 2005 11:48 (eighteen years ago) link
― Britain's Obtusest Shepherd (Alan), Thursday, 10 November 2005 13:44 (eighteen years ago) link
― melton mowbray (adr), Thursday, 10 November 2005 14:01 (eighteen years ago) link
Especially in re: Lucasarts games where the vast majority of what you're supposed to do is stupid things.
Popping the clown balloon, the spaghetti, etc. It all makes perfect sense. It's usually far more entertaining, and far less aggravating than any Sierra thing. I think the biggest inventory/thing-to-grab headache that I ever had was the plastic magnifying bubble from Sam & Max. I didn't know you had to grab that for the longest time.
Also: True or False: Adventure games & RPGs encourage & reward kleptomania, since you have to steal every single thing(treasure chests, a salt shaker, the jacket of your buddy, etc).
The extra fun bit are games like Divine Divinity, where you can steal everything, and then sell it back to shop owners at a profit.
― kingfish orange creamsicle (kingfish 2.0), Thursday, 10 November 2005 15:56 (eighteen years ago) link
Re: not dying in Lucasarts games - couldn't you get killed in Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis? (my favourite of the lot)
― melton mowbray (adr), Thursday, 10 November 2005 16:04 (eighteen years ago) link
Yes. They encourage kleptomania and absurdity. Or to frame it in a slightly different way, resourcefulness and thinking outside the box. Which I think are pretty useful skills to acquire. There's nothing more mind-numbing than a predictable adventure game--anyone who played the Hugo series knows what I'm talking about.
Yes, but I think the situations where you could die were fairly limited. And if, for example, you died during the second or third trial in the temple, you'd only be brought back to the first trial. Also when you died they told you what happened after your death based on your progress in the game, which was pretty cool.
― Laura H. (laurah), Thursday, 10 November 2005 16:15 (eighteen years ago) link
the parser in the second game was impossible to satisfy in places
― allen riley (allenriley), Thursday, 10 November 2005 17:14 (eighteen years ago) link
― Laura H. (laurah), Thursday, 10 November 2005 17:24 (eighteen years ago) link
― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Thursday, 10 November 2005 17:50 (eighteen years ago) link
― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Thursday, 10 November 2005 17:52 (eighteen years ago) link
― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Thursday, 10 November 2005 18:13 (eighteen years ago) link
Infocom games were designed to have a few moments of "WTF" in them like that. So that you would buy the Invisiclues and all that. The more recent wave of text adventures aren't quite so blatantly arbitrary, usually.
― Casuistry (Chris P), Thursday, 10 November 2005 18:19 (eighteen years ago) link
― Laura H. (laurah), Thursday, 10 November 2005 18:24 (eighteen years ago) link
etc
― kingfish orange creamsicle (kingfish 2.0), Thursday, 10 November 2005 18:56 (eighteen years ago) link
― Laura H. (laurah), Thursday, 10 November 2005 20:03 (eighteen years ago) link
I think you could die in Maniac Mansion by blowing the house up, couldn't you?
― Philip Alderman (Phil A), Thursday, 10 November 2005 21:52 (eighteen years ago) link
You could blow up the house by leaving the pool drained too long.
― Jdubz (ex machina), Thursday, 10 November 2005 22:47 (eighteen years ago) link
Getting the bauble from under the bridge in KQ4 really fucked with my 7 (if that) year old mind. Like I'm gonna see a orange (Hercules Monochrome, bitches!) pixel blob and be all "ooh, that's a nice bauble!" So Sierra taught me TRY SYNONYMS. And SAVE EVERY 90 SECONDS which is a hassle in say Grand Theft Auto.
― adam (adam), Thursday, 10 November 2005 22:49 (eighteen years ago) link
. . . . . Near the end of the sequence in the Nazi occupied castle, you are captured by guards and given the option of handing over Dr Jones's Grail Diary or being shot. The "correct" thing to do at this point is to bluff them by handing over Indy's copy of the diary he made as a kid. If you hand over the actual grail diary, the game proceeds as it normally would except you have take a diversion to Berlin to nab the diary back again. After retrieving your diary from the treacherous Elsa, as per the film you find yourself face-to-face with Hitler. You give him the diary to autograph and he lets you go. HOWEVER: Instead of giving him the diary to sign, you give him the travel pass you found earlier on in the castle. You now have a fuhrer-signed travel pass which gets you through any barricade without hindrance.
― Philip Alderman (Phil A), Thursday, 10 November 2005 23:54 (eighteen years ago) link
― Philip Alderman (Phil A), Thursday, 10 November 2005 23:57 (eighteen years ago) link
― Laura H. (laurah), Thursday, 10 November 2005 23:59 (eighteen years ago) link
― Philip Alderman (Phil A), Friday, 11 November 2005 00:03 (eighteen years ago) link
― Slumpman (Slump Man), Friday, 11 November 2005 00:41 (eighteen years ago) link
― jeffrey (johnson), Saturday, 12 November 2005 20:12 (eighteen years ago) link
I was never that into Leisure Suit Larry but if you're looking for a bawdy adventure game, it's good. I remember Police Quest pretty fondly. I hear good things about Quest for Glory but never played that series.
― Laura H. (laurah), Saturday, 12 November 2005 22:20 (eighteen years ago) link
― adam (adam), Saturday, 12 November 2005 22:36 (eighteen years ago) link
― kingfish cold slither (kingfish 2.0), Saturday, 12 November 2005 22:55 (eighteen years ago) link
― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 14 November 2005 11:29 (eighteen years ago) link
― adam (adam), Monday, 14 November 2005 18:18 (eighteen years ago) link
― jeffrey (johnson), Monday, 14 November 2005 18:25 (eighteen years ago) link
The snake keeps biting me in Castle, and I can't get past the ogres either.
― Jaq (Jaq), Thursday, 8 December 2005 22:28 (eighteen years ago) link
Jesus. Anyone here play Return to Zork? That game was KING of punishing you for completly obscure shit.
(I have spoilers, avert your eyes!)
On the first screen you have a plant next to you. You have the options of Pull, Cut and Dig Up. Anything but dig-up makes the plant look a little limp, but you don't think much of it.
After playing the game for various MONTHS getting past their obtuse puzzles (FEED A COW CARROTS AND DRINK HIS MILK SO YOU CAN SEE IN A DARK FOREST. WHAT. THE. FUCK.) you arrive at something like the second-last screen and you're required to have a LIVE plant. They didn't mention anything about the dead plant was a bad thing.
Play whole game again.
SCREW YOU, ZORK.
(What's worse is the entire game was like this. One screw-up, and you wouldn't even KNOW until days later)
― PlayfulPuppy (playfulpuppy), Friday, 9 December 2005 13:35 (eighteen years ago) link
― koogs (koogs), Friday, 9 December 2005 14:38 (eighteen years ago) link
The two sequels (Zork Nemesis and Zork Grand Inquistor) were a huge improvement by virtue of pretending RTZ never happened, thankfully.
― Philip Alderman (Phil A), Tuesday, 10 January 2006 21:00 (eighteen years ago) link
If you’re looking for a classic point-and-click adventure game then I’d recommend Gumshoe Online (www.gumshoe-online.com).
― Iwan Roberts, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 15:39 (eighteen years ago) link
― David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 15:43 (eighteen years ago) link
― kingfish kuribo's shoe (kingfish 2.0), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 16:11 (eighteen years ago) link
― David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 16:17 (eighteen years ago) link
In response to discussion of QFG above, I must put out an alert on anyone considering QFG4 as their entry into the genre, as it is a NOTORIOUSLY buggy release. Not sure if all the glitches were fully worked out; most of them are blatant ("ERROR 517 GAME OVER") but there was one that simply caused an important plot point to...not happen. Like I spent weeks wandering around the world trying every item with everything but this important meeting with this person at twilight WOULD NOT TAKE PLACE and it turns out it's nothing you can do, you have a buggy copy. NICE.
― Doctor Casino, Saturday, 29 November 2008 18:20 (fifteen years ago) link
Oh yeah, it was horrifically buggy, but eventually beatable with enough saving, reloading and trial and error. The story was pretty good, if I remember though, especially with the Lovecraft nods. I like how each game represented a different fantasy world (1 was generic wizards/hobbits, 2 was Arabian Nights, 3 was Africa, 4 was Dracula/Lovecraft, 5 was ?).
But why would you start with #4, anyway? They had the same basic mechanics since the QFG1 remake, and you'd want to experience the whole series in order for story reasons, as you take the same characters (with loading previous games' save files!) through each title. I had saves for each class and took them all through part four.
― Nhex, Sunday, 30 November 2008 06:35 (fifteen years ago) link
Agreed on all counts, really - I just noted 4 being upped somewhere upthread and wanted to forestall any broken hearts.
I really do think the first one is the best, with #2 a close second (would win if not for the gratuitous "town is a maze" stuff and all the wandering around in the desert). The original is just a really tightly worked out game - there's a WHOLE lot to do but the world feels very contained and well-developed, compared to all the empty space in the later ones.
― Doctor Casino, Monday, 1 December 2008 04:32 (fifteen years ago) link
Kudos to Zombie Cow, they got the two Ben and Dan games up on Steam, and only $5:http://store.steampowered.com/app/37400/
I really liked the first one, and it's still free. Totally worth playing if you liked the old Lucasarts/Sierra games. I've got a lot on my game queue right now but I'm definitely gonna get this when some space clears.
― Nhex, Tuesday, 25 August 2009 20:52 (fourteen years ago) link
http://www.indiegames.com/blog/2009/09/the_shivah_free_to_download_fo.html
― Nhex, Sunday, 27 September 2009 12:03 (fourteen years ago) link
(fwiw I have finished Varicella since I started this thread!)
― Gravel Puzzleworth, Sunday, 27 September 2009 12:10 (fourteen years ago) link
good looking out, just got shivah.
― ice cube treyz (forksclovetofu), Sunday, 27 September 2009 19:28 (fourteen years ago) link
Really dug this game ten years ago, just came out on GOG:
http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/sanitarium
― Nhex, Tuesday, 10 November 2009 19:02 (fourteen years ago) link
Sanitarium was an amazing game.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 18 November 2009 06:48 (fourteen years ago) link
looks great; wish i had a whole other life to play games.
― fifteen minutes of iguana time famous (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 18 November 2009 22:24 (fourteen years ago) link
I have bought around 10 adventure games from GOG and have played only 2 of them (the Simons).
― abanana, Thursday, 19 November 2009 08:17 (fourteen years ago) link
Did anyone actually play Jane Jenson's Grey Matter? It's on sale at Amazon for a mere $5. In my days of old (err, last year) I would've immediately picked it up but my backlog guilt is eating at me. (Also I haven't booted into Windows in months)
http://www.amazon.com/Viva-Media-40588Gray-Matter3-Download/dp/B004NNVE8M/
― Nhex, Monday, 21 May 2012 22:18 (eleven years ago) link
Came across the article about The Way on HG101:http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/theway/theway.htmSounds like a really interesting if flawed homage to Another World and Flashback. Anyone played this?
― Nhex, Sunday, 7 August 2016 12:49 (seven years ago) link
I haven't even played Flashback :/
shooting down a small animal from a tree so that a carnivorous plant eats it instead of you is a cool puzzle at first but if you have to do it a dozen times, always waiting until the animal aligns itself just right, it stops being fun.
This is a direct steal from another world though, except you don't have to do it a dozen times to get it right. Plenty of other puzzles in AW you do though - that's just how games were in them there days, short, so hard. If this has twelve hours of gameplay there's no excuse.
― chad valley of the shadow of death (ledge), Sunday, 7 August 2016 15:05 (seven years ago) link