― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 15:04 (seventeen years ago) link
An overall personality can be considered set, but there are always changes taking place. As a species we learn from experience (or at least we should) and this in turn affects our behaviour in similar situations. I know behaviour doesn't necessarily always equate to personality but it plays a huge role in how others see us (which in turns affects how we see ourselves).
People (or most people) tend to want to be liked. This affects, if not their personality, then at least the persona they put across. Sometimes it's not even a conscious thing.
I can't define the "real" me, but I do know that me at work != me at home != me out with friends != me on the internets but there are big enough overlaps that I don't consider myself to have multiple personalities, just different modes, or something.
― onimo (onimo), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 15:05 (seventeen years ago) link
During certain parts of my cycle, I think about suicide an average of 3 or 4 times an hour. I don't actually go to the doctor until they start to become detailed plans and active desire, rather than flitting almost reflexive impulses.
But a thought never has to have expression in order to have effect, and to be part of a personality. That background of suicidal hum is part of my personality, though I do my best to suppress and ignore it.
― Fire and Worms (kate), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 15:05 (seventeen years ago) link
many of the questions on the Jung tests, I have to kind of think "well, this is different depending on the phase of mania or depression" and try to judge which answer is more relevant. Maybe that goes along with the idealising thing.
Having known multiple people with bipolar and other mood disorders, I can definitely say that the personality is still coherent to the outside observer. Yes, there are drastic changes, but the same person is still recognizable as such whether in a manic stage or depressive. That core is there.
― Fleischhutliebe! like a warm, furry meatloaf (Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 15:06 (seventeen years ago) link
i.e. learning to trust others, and having the good sense to keep away from people who hurt you or exacerbate your own personal insecurities withe the way they behave towards you.
These are huge. And life-changing once you get them straight.
― Ms Misery (MissMiseryTX), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 15:07 (seventeen years ago) link
but is deliberate change a true, fundamental change or just a person acting to cover up whatever flaw it is they are trying to overcome, which yet persists underneath all the gloss they are deliberately applying?
no, it actually can change it, i've done it. there was stuff i was *really* bitter about in my early 20s (ok perhaps i don't count and am still in flux and am a mere babe at 28) and it made me miserable to myself and horrible to certain other people. it wasn't just huge things either, but small things would *really* get to me and i was angry and hateful. i decided i did not want to be like that, to myself or to anyone else, and after a lot of internal wrangling i have taught myself to be able to let go, to not be someone who carries badnesses with them like that. and sure, for ages it was literally gritting my teeth and telling myself "it.does.NOT.MATTER.let.it.GO." and reacting "gggrrrnnnghhhbut-but-but-waaaaargh" and so on and so on. but now it's different; i have actually changed.
but then, have i only effected this change because i had a personality in the first place which would *want* to get rid of the badness?
i am currently trying to stop interrupting people so much.
xposts
Should someone who's had p@edophilic thoughts but never acted upon them in any way consider themselves a p@edophile? -- Sick Mouthy (sickmouth...)
I'd say yes.
-- C J (CJ_The_Unrul...)
you're not a murderer until you've murdered somebody.
-- vita susicivus (n...)
paedophile is a state of being (err... you know what i mean); murderer is after an action you've taken.
― emsk ( emsk), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 15:26 (seventeen years ago) link
haha, me too. On my montiors I've put post it notes that say "talk" with a no sign on top and the other says "listen"
― Ms Misery (MissMiseryTX), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 15:28 (seventeen years ago) link
Isn't conspiracy to commit a crime usually punishable even if the actual crime is never committed?
― M. White (Miguelito), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 15:31 (seventeen years ago) link
― emsk ( emsk), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 15:32 (seventeen years ago) link
― Fire and Worms (kate), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 15:33 (seventeen years ago) link
Well, I'm not going to say anything about whether you're in flux or not, as from circumstances I know you are in a flux, but I don't think it's an age/maturity thing, but a circumstantial thing.
Maybe I'm going to change my mind due to this thread. Or qualify things more carefully. Malleableness of personality is easier when you are younger, but there are other things that come with age/maturity. This whole decision to be able to "let things go" - is something that gets easier with age and more likely experience about how horribly wrong things go when you don't.
Is that changing your personality, though, or changing your behaviour?
I don't know; this is the problem that Tuomas raises - is there a difference, and ifso, where? I'm repeating myself now. But that's another personality quirk of mine. ;-)
― Fire and Worms (kate), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 15:39 (seventeen years ago) link
But one thing I've noticed from this thread is that things go more easily if you don't just react about something someone has said that you disagree with (and it's taken a few instances of self discipline to refrain from zings) but rather to ask questions and get the person to clarify and rephrase until you understand what they are saying, not just what you expect/think they are saying, due to your impression of what their personality is or isn't.
One's impression of *others'* personalities doesn't have to be a fixed thing, either.
(That's another thread, and the whole Oscar Wilde "I have never met anyone who hasn't turned out to be exactly what I thought they were in my first five minutes of meetings them" first impressions, how accurate thing - does that say more about the power of first impressions, or Wilde's unique perceptiveness in his author's eye.)
― Fire and Worms (kate), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 15:43 (seventeen years ago) link
― M. White (Miguelito), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 15:44 (seventeen years ago) link
MYSTERIOUS!
This whole decision to be able to "let things go" - is something that gets easier with age and more likely experience about how horribly wrong things go when you don't.
changing/evolving your personality, because before you weren't able to let things go?
― emsk ( emsk), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 15:52 (seventeen years ago) link
Is that changing your personality, though, or changing your behaviour?I don't know; this is the problem that Tuomas raises - is there a difference, and ifso, where?
I'd say personality is those modes of behaviour which you and others perceive as more fixed than others. The reason personality seems (or is, usually) stable is because they are less easy to deprogram than others.
― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 15:52 (seventeen years ago) link
― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 15:53 (seventeen years ago) link
People who seem to "change" personalities might just have a core personality akin to the carrier shell, constantly cementing new decor to their shell. Thus, in their changeability, they are unchanging. Somebody's probably said this. I don't have time to read the whole thing until later.
― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 15:55 (seventeen years ago) link
No, just the ageing process. It gets harder to keep track of who I'm feuding with, due to the senility, and easy to ignore obvious windups with the thought "is this worth having a coronary over?"
It is just significantly different in my late 30s than it was in my late 20s. And I hope that it will continue in my 40s and 50s and so on. As my mum would say, it gets easier to ignore idiots and suffer fools when you can just wave your hand and say "I'm old, I don't have to deal with this!"
When you're young, you think the world is your responsibility, and it seems imperative to right all the wrongs (perceived or otherwise). As you get older, you kinda care less.
But that said, maybe decisions get more irrevocable as you get older. (Yes, that has a double meaning I don't really care to explain.)
― Fire and Worms (kate), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 15:58 (seventeen years ago) link
When life is simpler, i.e less commitments (financial, relationship, dependants) maybe there are less constraints from *outside* that make you need to adapt behaviour to fit in with other people and situations. To what extent does that behaviour become *the real* you? In my view you essentially haven't changed personality, because YOU CAN'T, but maybe you've modified its effects through some conscious changes in the way you act. I TOTALLY screwed my life up twice in the last 10 or so years, and my personality is the same now - given the same combination of circumstances it COULD happen again. But I think I have learned enough about myself & others to modify my behaviour and avoid the same. The relentlessly positive side of my nature is a real asset here. I actually believe that I CAN avoid disaster in the future! Older and wiser, or older and more deluded? Who knows?
― Dr. C (Dr. C), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:01 (seventeen years ago) link
No, but that's a very interesting idea.
Was talking a while ago with a friend, complaining about someone who I saw as "false" or "two-faced" and she kind of re-explained it as being someone who was more concerned with not upsetting anyone and keeping everything smooth and nice-appearances-wise. While I see this as bald faced lying, by omission or otherwise, and terribly deceiptful, it had a reason, a use and/or a "good quality" to her.
Maybe the core personality in these cases that wind me up so much is an extreme example of someone whose desire is to please others. It seems like falseness to me, but they are being true to themselves, when what is most important to their personalities is pleasing others.
― Fire and Worms (kate), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:04 (seventeen years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:05 (seventeen years ago) link
― M. White (Miguelito), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:09 (seventeen years ago) link
Ned, I saw "19/20" and thought you were grading yourself there :)
― C J (C J), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:09 (seventeen years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:10 (seventeen years ago) link
Kate, hypocrisy is the soul of politesse and sometimes it's nice to see someone more interested in making sure that everyone has a good time than in expressing (sometimes narcissistically) their own 'authenticity'.
It's slightly more complicated than that. I understand that certain things must be suppressed in order for polite society to proceed accordingly. (Hence my restraint and not raging at people I think are completely off the money.) However, it is more about the supressing of information which may hurt a person, in order to continue to look like a Nice Person *to* that person (and/or others) rather than being honest about what is going on, at the risk of hurting some people, and conversely not seeming like a Nice Person.
In that case, honestly will usually win for me, even if it ends up making me look like a cnut. Because the longer that you prolong that fantasy of everyone having a good time, the worse the situation will get when it eventually all comes out.
This sounds horribly convoluted without specific examples, but it is more complicated than your example. To some people, seeming like the "nice guy" is more important than truthfulness. In some cases, this may be warranted, in others, it is not.
― Fire and Worms (kate), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:20 (seventeen years ago) link
― M. White (Miguelito), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:23 (seventeen years ago) link
It's useful to discard the notion that "people can change." How many miserable relationships struggle on because of people climging to this belief?
Children develop and unfold, but core personalities don't change unless there's organic damage to the brain. Witness so many recovering-alcoholics who are still permanent assholes.
― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:24 (seventeen years ago) link
― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:25 (seventeen years ago) link
How much of a person's perceived personality is based on other's preconceptions (or misconceptions) of them? Does this ever impact your actual personality?
― Ms Misery (MissMiseryTX), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:26 (seventeen years ago) link
Agreed, Beth.
Excepting a few lifetime hobbies/traits ('I like swimming.' 'I like books.' 'I love dogs.' ' I write for money.') and something of a soul-based ethical command center, I'd like to believe in constant change. Most people I know are like this, except they carry trappings (apartments, photos, stories) from other phases of their lives to keep them connected with their former selves. I can't quite get on board with the shell metaphor, but I'd endorse a hermit-crab alternative.
PS: Once I found a hermit crab on Martha's Vineyard. I brought it home, and it moved into a lightbulb. A year later he grew out of it, so I gave him a Dinty Moore can. Then I lost him but found him dead in the piano bench a week later. He smelled like canned stew.
― indian rope trick (bean), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:26 (seventeen years ago) link
This is very very important. Behaviour can sometimes change, but never by trying to change someone.
(Though my fear is that my deep down personality is that I *am* just a permanent asshole, and everything else is just not very well learned social graces.)
― Fire and Worms (kate), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:27 (seventeen years ago) link
?? Did you break off the end so he could climb in? Wasn't it jagged?
― Ms Misery (MissMiseryTX), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:29 (seventeen years ago) link
I think we do have a certain *constant self* but we are able to change the outside layers. It's very hard but possible, notice it when going in therapy and/or entering a new relationship.
― Nathalie (stevie nixed), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:30 (seventeen years ago) link
Though, I do think personality is fluid, and that people do 'change', just not me.
― jel -- (jel), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:31 (seventeen years ago) link
Which is definitely a trap or can be. It seems to be fitting in more and more with my belief of process over product.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:31 (seventeen years ago) link
xxpost MsMisery: the light bulb was from my grandma's station wagon, it had (kind-of) a natural opening from where it had been not-too-gently removed from the car. Not too jagged. As the year went on, it got cooler-looking because bits of sand and food would get trapped inside with the crab and scratch patterns on the interior.
― indian rope trick (bean), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:33 (seventeen years ago) link
― Ms Misery (MissMiseryTX), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:34 (seventeen years ago) link
YOU ARE A WARRIOR QUEEN!!!!
― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:37 (seventeen years ago) link
When I look at a newborn baby I get a specific "feel" from them that remains as they grow up. Some core is there, watchful and detached, or open and bemused, whatever
Maybe this is U&K, that I'm trying to discuss personality on the basis of a rather too limited sample base. Mainly mine own, because that's the only personality I've known intimately through the course of its whole course. And one is always too intimately involved in one's own personality to see it, and its changes, clearly.
When you have a child, and watch them grow up, and their personality become established, grow, change or not, that must be a far more useful lesson in the actual roots and origins of personality - why I included parenthood as one of the list of life-changing things that really can permanently alter your outlook.
There is definitely a layer of my personality that was set and laid down by the time I was 14, 15. Another fairly permanent layer got set down at 22, with the decisions and experiences I had then. Since then, behavioural-wise, I'm not the same person at all, due to learning from experiences and hopefully growing. But in terms of interests, patterns of thinking, quirks, tastes, the way I move through life hasn't changed a bit.
― Fire and Worms (kate), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:37 (seventeen years ago) link
― Nathalie (stevie nixed), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:38 (seventeen years ago) link
This is really resonating with me. I like this idea/image a lot.
― Fire and Worms (kate), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:39 (seventeen years ago) link
Which is why I try to avoid looking back at them! Obviously I write and receive a lot of letters and take thousands of photos now (thank you digital age) but in both cases they're not things I recheck much if at all. Something like Flickr is handy because it gives me a space for photos that others might find of interest, but I'm not bound to look through them myself. I'd rather look through others'!
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:40 (seventeen years ago) link
― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:40 (seventeen years ago) link
This I don't agree with. People do change, but only with extreme self-motivation and lots of time. Always intrinsically. It's a rule of thumb of mine to trust people to what I call (and is probably more eloquently titled elsewhere) 'the law of minimal effective action.' As I've observed, people will set inconcrete goals for themselves, and do as little as they can to achieve them. Goals are so specific and idiosyncratic 'I want an antique Beemer' or 'This year I should become the greatest linotypist in the world' or 'I'd feel more complete with a Zoroastrian girlfriend' that people are forced to change themselves, sometimes, in pursuit of these things. When they reach their desires they change mostly back to the way they were. Mostly. But some of the new self they tried on in pursuit of their X sticks to them. Over time, the accumulation of all these little adjustments, possibilities, makes them/us wider people, with a stranger band of possible actions, a broader selection of selves to use, and a more global personality.
― indian rope trick (bean), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:41 (seventeen years ago) link
― Fire and Worms (kate), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:42 (seventeen years ago) link
― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:48 (seventeen years ago) link
― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:49 (seventeen years ago) link
― Fire and Worms (kate), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:50 (seventeen years ago) link