burzum

Hit 'submit' early there.

With Burzum, I'm knowing that my money is going to someone with pretty abhorrent views.

so nobody's silently contemplating the white gods on this thread?

J0hn: when an artist is operating in a marginal sort of way, every bit of active fan support counts. By "active support", I mean in terms of money given, broad/podcasting, positive words said publicly, shows booked, etc. All of these things help the artist to continue working and to reach heads. Passive support, of the sort where music is downloaded (stolen, as they say) and listened to in private affects no one but the listener - a listener who has, in this case, already been affected. Solitary attention doesn't increase the artist's public profile and it can't open new ears. It's therefore all but meaningless. I'll listen to Burzum in this way, out of morbid curiosity, but I won't pay him money to do what he does. I won't go see him play live.

As for Pedro's argument, fuck that. I don't claim to be morally perfect, but that doesn't mean that I'm a hypocrite when I make moral choices. WTF? Like I have to be without stain in order to take a stand against anything, ever? Fuck that.

Passive support, of the sort where music is downloaded (stolen, as they say) and listened to in private affects no one but the listener

I don't actually agree with this, but then I believe in energy fields and shit like that.

As for Pedro's argument, fuck that. I don't claim to be morally perfect, but that doesn't mean that I'm a hypocrite when I make moral choices. WTF? Like I have to be without stain in order to take a stand against anything, ever? Fuck that.

i just find it a little strange that people choose the Count as the place to draw a line in the sand.

I don't actually agree with this, but then I believe in energy fields and shit like that.

yeah, this - I mean, spiritual support (which you give by taking pleasure in something) may not be quantifiable, but it's a thing, I think.

Dangit, enough with the iguana time.

I kinda thought about the energy fields thing while posting, Jon, though I can't say I believe. Even without quasi-metaphysical agency, it's reasonable to say that nothing has zero effect, so my passive support must have some impact on things. I suppose I'm just okay with that kinda low level quantum uncertainty.

And I draw lots of little lines in the sand, jim. Why not? I mean, who else besides me gets to decide what's right and wrong? I just hate the nihilism of the "well, you're imperfect in this way, so why worry about being imperfect in that way?" argument. Isn't it enough to just be imperfect?

i just find it a little strange that people choose the Count as the place to draw a line in the sand.

Well, yeah. But it has to be drawn somewhere. I also won't give me money to R Kelly or Chris Brown fwiw.

I kind of wish sports arenas would stop playing rock & roll pt. II, but must admit curiosity re: burzum. Is filosofem the record to listen to if you're not planning on listening to any others?
I agree there is an intangible that an artist gains from you listening to them regardless of any material support you deny them, but of the monetizable mindshare/branding kind rather than any spiritual hitpoints.

So there's no black metal fans here who in their heart-of-hearts believe "This is my culture as a arayan warrior god."

besides tom araya you mean?

tom araya's on ILX??

he goes by "ned raggett," thought everybody knew this

isn't taking pleasure in something, and participating in it, no less a vote of support than buying it? it seems to me that if you're supporting the work with your heart by listening to it, the whole "I won't buy it" is something of a pose.

I think that's sort of the essential question though--in situations like this I have to hear what's under discussion to find out if my heart is in it. And if it is then there's a reevaluation due, but in my case at least we're talking downloading & listening as a satisfaction of morbid curiosity.

^ cop out

I just hope my Old Funeral 7" quintuples in value so I can take a monetary stance by profiting directly off Varg's evil.

Y'know, let HIM fund MY evil endeavors. Muhahaha!

i think a person could believe in their heart of hearts "this is my culture as a aryan warrior god" and still think v.v. is a fucking retard, and also not be racist, multi xpost

wait, we seriously talking about how listening to music sends out spiritual waves of reinforcement to the artist? isn't listening to the music and then talking about it on message boards and with friends kind of the real issue?

multi-xposts

bumping google ranking is a kind of spiritual reinforcement

ts: freud vs tolkien

well, yeah, i just thought the mystical forcefield slant was kind of goofy.

xpost

Helping to build the artist's community by evangelizing for the greatness &c is kinda what I had in mind by one's heart being in it, not necessarily "sending Varg good vibes"

for me this is weird because i like burzum. have liked burzum for quite a while despite being fully aware of varg's filosofems. but i was able to compartmentalize it better when he was in jail. like, i dunno, like admiring birth of a nation for its formal qualities or whatever. not that i do that; i've never even seen BoaN, but you get the point... certain kinds of distance (like time or, apparently, imprisonment) make it easier to accept the ostensibly unacceptable aspects of things. kitschy sexism in old movies and tv shows, etc. with varg out of jail and pushing the old bullshit, my "purely musical" interest suddenly becomes a LOT harder to justify. not for any good reason -- i mean, i'm aware of the hypocrisy/dissonance of my former laissez-faire stance -- but so be it.

typing this way cuz it looks better with IBM console emulator stylesheet <3

Fuck it though, I think what you listen to affects your attitudes, subtly or obviously, unless you take concerted efforts to counteract the effects of what you're listening to. And in that sense by listening to and enjoying Varg or Skrewdriver or Five Iron Frenzy or Public Enemy (all have ideologies) is a form of support because you're allowing the attitudes that animate that music to affect you and the way you engage with the world. Maybe this is an unpopular argument in the era of "video games don't cause violence people cause violence" but it seems clear to my mind.

man this pink stylesheet with the penguins makes me type in long paragraphs lol

What about visual art? Does liking Van Gogh condone the cutting off of one's ear?

No, but Van Gogh didn't make paintings about how only the inferior races had two ears

^ possibly the weirdest thing i've ever said

I'm just saying it's an unfair comparison--an explicitly ideological artist whose art is (coyly or not) explicitly ideological is going to have a direct effect on listeners and their attitudes in a way that a less explicitly ideological artist like um Weird Al, say, is not.

someone told me once skrewdriver sounded exactly like limp bizkit which killed any curiosity i had for it.

also -- weird al has an ideology!

I said less explicitly ideological! I was raised a Marxist, I gotta cover my ass

yeah cap on vibes & whatnot all you want, I think that people lending support by listening to (approvingly, mind - burzum is like the one black metal bsnd that's the wedge act for a lot of indie cats to go "now this music is awesome," their stuff reaches beyond "the scene") nazi music legitimizes that music - there are plenty of people who won't play or listen to Wagner on essentially the same grounds, only spelled out a little more rigorously. the idea that the music a fascist makes is fascist music, and you're drinking up some of that fascism when you listen to it, and lending it validity, doesn't seem all that exotic to me. even less strange to my way of thinking, if you're inclined spiritually, is that music conveys something of the spirit of the person who wrote it.

re hoos: i dunno about lesser or greater effect, but in the case of ideological artists, you do have to question/decide how much room you wanna make for that ideology in your life. i'm okay, for example, with the ideological implications of nature trail to hell.

and to Nate: there's a lot of statist art from Communist countries whose aesthetics are inseparable from the ideology. there's fascist architecture, too. I think we're past the idea of a pure art that exists apart from any notions of ideology.

agree that varg makes nazi music. agree that supporting or even listening to burzum legitimizes varg's philosophy. to the extent that a lot of people do this, it makes varg a much more important cultural figure, both within racist circles and without.

also, unfortunately agree with strawman indie cats that his music, at its best, is remarkable (there, i did it: i supported him, added energy, spread the meme). not as remarkable as wagner, who i'll listen to without reservations of any sort, but still pretty damn good.

all of that leaves me feeling more than a little conflicted about the support i've given him (and apparently continue to give him), now that he's out of jail and spreading hate. maybe j0hn's right...

there's a lot of statist art from Communist countries whose aesthetics are inseparable from the ideology. there's fascist architecture, too.

― a full circle lol (J0hn D.), Thursday, November 19, 2009 5:14 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark

yeah, but that only makes the issue more complex. i think a lot of high-modern architecture is fascist even though its stated ideology isn't. and i wouldn't necessarily reject all ostensibly "fascist" state-sponsored art & architecture on the basis of its stated ideology. while art and ideology are inseparable, they're not the same thing.

"at its best, is remarkable"
which album is it that's the best? (Don't worry, you won't turn me into a Burzumonster -- i'll keep my ideology shield up.)

"i'm okay, for example, with the ideological implications of nature trail to hell."

Shit. I've ended every Dj set of the last 60 days with "Nature Trail to Hell". That is top shelf songwriting and execution.

i'd go with filosofem, philip, and then maybe hvis lyset tar oss - but real black metal people seem to prefer the 1st two. filosofem is difficult due to the long ambient keyboard passages, but the good stuff is amazing. contains, "jesus tod", one of my favorite rock songs of any kind, ever. sounds like the munsters attempting to negotiate a mountain road, in the darkness, at 90 mph. keyboards are better integrated on hvis lystet, though.

the deed is done.

never did find the pink penguins, hoos

found penguin :DDD

t/s: buying burzum albums (1 murder, bad politics) vs. paying taxes (tens of thousands of murders, less bad politics)

t/s: Murdering people vs. listening to Burzum.

(Burzum just came up on shuffle!)

This is an interesting discussion - despite my reservations, I actually dowloaded Filosofem earlier in the year as part of my excursions into black metal and was/am considering buying a physical copy because it's such a good record and the distinction being talked about here has weighed on my mind a bit.
Re: Wagner I have to admit that I'd feel less guilty about buying music by someone no longer alive - I realise that you'd still be contributing to their popularity in the general scheme of things, allowing the artist (and by extension whatever baggage comes with them) to 'live on' but I suppose with them not being around to feed off any of it the act feels less harmful. Of course there might well be other people with abhorrent views who might be heartened by it so it's not like the work loses all its ideological associations once its creator passes on.

Am listening to filosofem right now, but how do you guys feel about Laibach or Whitehouse as musical substitutes?

laibach aren't fascists, though. they're an arts collective who use the iconography/idea of fascism to criticize pop culture. and whitehouse are just horrible twits who like saying bad words. plus i don't think either band is anywhere near as musically interesting/satisfying as burzum.

whabbout Death in June?

^^^ that's closer to the point.

Are there a lot of black metal bands to choose from or only a few? Are there black metal bands who have been influenced by burzum - who even bite their styles and rip them off - that don't promote a nazi ideology?

look up the other black metal threads, it's been talked about a lot iirc