Abe Lincoln, gay man?

Message Bookmarked
Bookmark Removed
Not all messages are displayed: show all messages (52 of them)
not just an anachronism, actually. as anthony writes it's a word that can obscure as much as it reveals--as in, obscure the actual specifics of someone's sexual activities and the historical context that would help to understand them. that is, if we thinking understanding them is even a worthwhile endeavor in this case. i'm not convinced.

amateur!!st, Thursday, 28 October 2004 05:45 (nineteen years ago) link

remy doncha know brady didn't really take many of the photos for which he is famous anyway? apparently most were taken by a team of photographers working under him, and then he would sign his name. pretty standard practice at the time (probably there are studios where this is still standard), but worth noting.

amateur!!st, Thursday, 28 October 2004 05:46 (nineteen years ago) link

No kidding! My fifth grade teacher used to talk about Brady incessently, and showed us a bunch of posed-corpse photos (whose veracity I can't confirm/deny) so to this day I've got a weird little knowledge-base about him, and he creeps into a number of conversations where he doesn't belong. I love any iconclasty abt. him, because it drives him out of my friggin' head, two decades after I had to study all about him in school.

Remy (x Jeremy), Thursday, 28 October 2004 05:50 (nineteen years ago) link

It's worth noting that the first published use of the word "homosexual" (as a noun) was in 1869.

jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 28 October 2004 05:51 (nineteen years ago) link

I.e., four years after Lincoln kicked it. Not a homo, end of story.

jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 28 October 2004 05:54 (nineteen years ago) link

susan sontag addressed the moving-corpses-for-a-more-iconic-shot thing in one of her new yorker essays a year or two ago. it was interesting. apparently the manipulations aren't hard to spot. the famous photo of a "dead rebel sniper" actual snows a body posed next to a rifle that is *not* the rifle a sniper would use.

i can't imagine actually going into a trench and moving a bunch of smelly corpses around to get a better photo. now that's determination.

amateur!!st, Thursday, 28 October 2004 05:56 (nineteen years ago) link

xpost

speaking of lincoln kicking it, i saw "birth of a nation" on the big screen a few weeks ago and was struck again by how amazing is t he scene of lincoln's assassination in that film. a beautiful and exciting stretch of cinema.

[necessary disclaimers about how the film is otherwise quite ideologically repugnant etc.]

amateur!!st, Thursday, 28 October 2004 05:57 (nineteen years ago) link

Jaymc is correct, before the the term "homosexual" was medicalized in the late 19th century, homosexual was something you did, not something you were. Homosexuality (and the "sin", or the crime, of sodomy) lied in the act of sex, not in someone's identity. People could have homosexual encounters without them being labeled as homosexuals.

This of course doesn't mean Lincoln couldn't have preferred homosexual encounters to heterosexual ones...

Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 28 October 2004 05:58 (nineteen years ago) link

It's weirdly affecting -- there are a number of pieces of brilliance in that film. I read a review once in which the writer talked about how the work (film, I think) was scattered bits of genius, "like einstein after a motorcycle accident" and I can't help but remember that quote whenver I think of Birth of A Nation.

Remy (x Jeremy), Thursday, 28 October 2004 06:06 (nineteen years ago) link

BOAN: now *there's* a film where a very unsavory form of sexual panic is just bursting from the screen. what a fucked-up film. and yet it still has a strange and very disturbing sort of power to fuel fear and fantasy. (i can only imagine how real the black sexual predator "gus" seemed to audiences of 1915, even as we now --and many people in 1915 to be honest-- recognize him as a grotesque caricature.)

anyway i like my american political heroes like i like my rifles: celibate.


xpost

i don't think it's scattered bit of genius, i think it's through-and-through a quite amazing film, although that scene is a definite highlight. it is also a really disgusting bit of propaganda for race-hatred, and a falsification of american history.

amateur!!st, Thursday, 28 October 2004 06:10 (nineteen years ago) link

another fun fact, the concept of heterosexual came first.
(can you provide qoutes wrt to the sontag essay, and the brady stuff, im writing an essay where it would prove useful.)

anthony, Thursday, 28 October 2004 09:25 (nineteen years ago) link

I'm sorry - I'm being dense; what do you mean by "The concept of heterosexual came first"?

Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Thursday, 28 October 2004 10:32 (nineteen years ago) link

Yeah, I find it kinda weird that someone could come up with an concept of "a heterosexual" without contrasting it to "a homosexual". Obviously, concepts of "sodomy" or "boy love" have existed for hundreds of years, but as I said, they referred to homosexual acts, not to identity. Also, "sodomy" often covered more than just gay sex, for example heterosexual butt sex and bestiality.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 28 October 2004 10:58 (nineteen years ago) link

i don't know about quotes, but i can try to find the cite so you can read the article itself.

amateur!!st, Thursday, 28 October 2004 15:32 (nineteen years ago) link

maybe his gayness is what turned mary todd into such a lunatic. well, that and the dead babies.

Emilymv (Emilymv), Thursday, 28 October 2004 15:38 (nineteen years ago) link

i am totally hamming (gaying?) up my halloween costume this year.

JaXoN (JasonD), Thursday, 28 October 2004 15:54 (nineteen years ago) link

Anth is wrong -- the word "homosexual" predates "heterosexual" by a few years. And in the paper that first uses the term "heterosexual", it's frowned upon (but it compares "heterosexual" sex, which is all about pleasure, to "procreative" sex, which is all about baby making). Homosexual sex is, in that paper, portrayed as breaking the divine law, but heterosexual sex is a perversion of holy procreative sex, and thus worse than homosexuality.

Casuistry (Chris P), Thursday, 28 October 2004 16:07 (nineteen years ago) link

"well, that and the dead babies."

i will try to work this phrase into several conversations this week.

amateur!!st, Thursday, 28 October 2004 16:11 (nineteen years ago) link

Homosexual sex is, in that paper, portrayed as breaking the divine law, but heterosexual sex is a perversion of holy procreative sex, and thus worse than homosexuality.

I heart sinning.

Hank Tenbeer (kenan), Thursday, 28 October 2004 16:17 (nineteen years ago) link

maybe his gayness is what turned mary todd into such a lunatic. well, that and the dead babies.

I've read suggestions that Mary Todd Lincoln's were not inconsistent with tertiary syphilis. This doesn't prove anything about Lincoln's sexual preferences, but this wouldn't be the first case in which a man caught a VD from an extramarital partner and passed it on to his wife.

Mind you, seeing one's husband shot right in front of you would tend to unhinge most minds.

j.lu (j.lu), Thursday, 28 October 2004 16:24 (nineteen years ago) link

Grr...."...Mary Todd Lincoln's symptoms in later years were not..."

j.lu (j.lu), Thursday, 28 October 2004 16:24 (nineteen years ago) link

Oh, she was unhinged before that.

Hank Tenbeer (kenan), Thursday, 28 October 2004 16:25 (nineteen years ago) link

Mind you, seeing one's husband shot right in front of you would tend to unhinge most minds.

Particularly if the shooter then threw dead gay babies at you.

The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 28 October 2004 16:25 (nineteen years ago) link

(Not that Booth did that, I'm just saying.)

The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 28 October 2004 16:26 (nineteen years ago) link

Sic semper deadbabyis.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 28 October 2004 16:27 (nineteen years ago) link

Death to dead babies? Overkill, I'd say.

Hank Tenbeer (kenan), Thursday, 28 October 2004 16:28 (nineteen years ago) link

i thot it was heterosexual by a few months, though i might have read ned katz wrong.

anthony, Thursday, 28 October 2004 20:54 (nineteen years ago) link

ten years pass...

cut to the chase: Kramer's historical novel (part 1!) sez Lincoln and many other presidents, Hamilton, Lafayette et al were queer

the increasing costive borborygmi (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 26 March 2015 21:28 (nine years ago) link

is Buchanan in there

(the closet)

guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 26 March 2015 21:36 (nine years ago) link

too obvious maybe? Washington, tho.

the increasing costive borborygmi (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 26 March 2015 21:40 (nine years ago) link

in Burr, Vidal's narrator hints that Washington has a massive crush on Hamilton, and that the latter advanced because of his accepting the attentions of older men.

guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 26 March 2015 21:47 (nine years ago) link

lol at this

Joshua Speed, the most important of Abe’s amours is copiously quoted and/ or paraphrased from documents Larry has examined: “From the first night we met I held him in my arms, each night for going on four years. And he held me in his arms even tighter. We were both big strapping young men and my big bed took quite a beating. If Billy came upon us, or Abner, in the middle of our occupations, they would throw a pillow at us. Oh how we laughed, all of us. Those were happy days. Abraham was twenty-eight. I was twenty-two.”

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Thursday, 26 March 2015 21:51 (nine years ago) link

you have no romance in your heart

the increasing costive borborygmi (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 26 March 2015 21:56 (nine years ago) link

We were both big strapping young men and my big bed took quite a beating. If Billy came upon us, or Abner, in the middle of our occupations, they would throw a pillow at us. Oh how we laughed, all of us. Those were happy days.

I don't think I've read this Clickhole article

the geographibebebe (unregistered), Friday, 27 March 2015 02:41 (nine years ago) link

but I can tell it was written by the 'big jazz boy' person

the geographibebebe (unregistered), Friday, 27 March 2015 02:41 (nine years ago) link

that's a heck of a url

call all destroyer, Friday, 27 March 2015 03:30 (nine years ago) link

per the NYT review today, Franklin, Jackson, Pierce, Buchanan, Samuel Clemens, all gay

the increasing costive borborygmi (Dr Morbius), Friday, 27 March 2015 17:25 (nine years ago) link

Pierce was one of the cuter and more bibulous presidents.

guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 27 March 2015 17:50 (nine years ago) link


You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.