A Paler Shade of White---Sasha Frere-Jones Podcast and New Yorker article Criticizing Indie Rock for Failing to Incorporate African-American Influences

Arcade Fire are obviously influenced by black music. They have a drummer and bass player, for starters. Where is the rhythm section in the music of Mozart and Brahms?

x-post

Good call re the Tom Tom Club lyric "Who Needs to Think When Your Feet Just Go." Will Sasha defend his carelessy worded Pat Boone and white rock =thinking, black music=dancing and sex (but no thinking) inferences or just keep to saying "Miscegenation felt like the right word, warts and all," and: "Most of the e-mails I’ve received about “A Paler Shade of White” fall into one of three categories: frustration with my focus on indie rock (mainstream, non-indie music has remained fairly miscegenated, give or take a year, and so tells a different story); complaints about the omission of [insert name of a current band], which proves that indie music nowadays is miscegenated (or whatever I alleged it wasn’t); pleas to listen to the sender’s band, which proves that indie music nowadays is etc. None of the examples changed my feeling about the arc I described, which started in the early nineties."

No admissions regarding questionable language, and the same SFJ rock history that ignores various examples from the 50s to the present (or dismisses them as exceptions). Plus he's not even trying to explain why the indie-rockers he has described are different than pop chart artists or jambanders or rap-rockers. Why didn't Dr. Dre and Snoop's impact affect the others the way he suggests it has affected indie?

geir makes you think

Mozart's last utterance was apparently a drum part from the "Lacrimosa."

Isn't Pat Boone basically just a BAD Elvis Presley, making milquetoast covers of Tutti Frutti?

Yea, not sure how turning vital music into schmaltz is using your head as opposed to hips,or a uniquely Anglo-American thing, although it did work financially for Pat Boone.

Posting way back: see, if Grand Royal and trip-hop and whatnot count as "indie" in retrospect, there's no reason loft-party electro and Diplo mixes and Fannypack and the Blow and select undie rappers shouldn't qualify now! Which I think is basically Scott's point, that there's very little reason to imagine many people live in a musical world that's strictly indie guitar-pop bands; on one end you have music geeks and indie die-hards who listen to a lot of other stuff, and on the other you have casual fans who might enjoy the Decemberists alongside Jill Scott or something. The only demographic I can imagine being seriously limited to this stuff would be in that teenage range where you get all dogmatic about only approving of one thing.

iirc grand royal for notorious for signing shitty indie bands.

another example of terrible trip-hop/indie "synergy": folk implosion.

i think they might be actually black

aww!

-- da croupier, Saturday, October 27, 2007 3:33 PM (6 hours ago) Bookmark Link

i know right

-- jhøshea, Saturday, October 27, 2007 3:35 PM

a++

Yea, not sure how turning vital music into schmaltz is using your head as opposed to hips,or a uniquely Anglo-American thing, although it did work financially for Pat Boone.

-- curmudgeon, Saturday, October 27, 2007 2:15 PM (Saturday, October 27, 2007 2:15 PM) Bookmark Link

Peabo Bryson to thread.

Lionel Richie saved us from the Commodores, moving music from the hips to the head.

um, excuse me, all night long? jumbo jumbo, motherfucker!

Oh, what a feeling.

Speaking of Lionel Richie's head

OMG that thread is brilliant timex eight

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/sashafrerejones/2007/10/thats-all-folks.html

Jesus, even the headline is assholish. That's all folks! I closed the can of worms, let's move on!

We will end with clapping, entirely aware that it isn’t applause. The two and four will hold us for a while.

New Yorker, please.

In this case, I bet most of the clapping will be on the one and three.

Ah good, he's now changed direction and doubled back enough times that we can no longer follow his tracks.

I know, this was pretty anti-climactic. Dude drops this big provocation, even calls out for responses and asks for tons of feedback, then offers a couple blog posts that barely address the criticism.

This shit: embarassing

Actually, I'm more bothered by the way the "call for feedback" and post-article blogging feels like an excuse to not have to have thought his piece through thoroughly in the first place.

natural one was kinda funky.

Surprisingly, Mickey Kaus summarized this debacle best:

"I wrote a piece about race and indie rock that ran in the magazine a couple weeks ago. Perhaps you read it." How full of himself is Sasha Frere-Jones? ...

um this thread alone (which he surely has read) supports his smugness.

It supports his certainty people are paying attention, but not his smugness.

Holy crap, dudes: I had a dream the other day where I was listening to some kind of blazing soul-shouting indie-rock r&b track, and it was Arcade Fire -- I just wish I could remember more details of the song my dream-imagination produced to fill the requirements! In my dream I was actually like "man, I gotta mention this song on that ILM thread" and "I'll be this was totally in whatever mp3 that guy sent Sasha."

um this thread alone (which he surely has read) supports his smugness.

-- J0rdan S., Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:03 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Link

When I forwarded him some 'clippings' he e-mailed me back that he had only been reading e-mails sent to the New Yorker. Not sure if he's read other stuff since then.

A recurrent topic of mine is "Kids These Days: What's the Deal with Their Music?" Unlike the previous generation, my complaint is that popular music has barely changed in 25 years. Rap music is still the same old same old; the LA "New Rock" radio station KROQ sounds almost exactly the same as when I left LA in 1982, except styles have gotten narrower (fewer synthesizers and fewer girl singers); and country sounds like the lamer sort of 1970s rock.

The great age of rock music was driven in part by the electric guitar, which first emerged with Charlie Christian's participation in Benny Goodman's band in the late 1930s. Just as the development of the pianoforte (soft-loud) was essential to the Romantic music of the 19th Century (imagine if Romantic composers had had to compose on harpsichords!), the electric guitar was central to turning rock 'n' roll (which could be performed just fine on the piano, as Jerry Lee Lewis and Little Richard had shown) into rock. Around 1964-1965, the world discovered how protean the electric guitar could sound, and that set off one of the great eras in popular music history.

But there was an important ethnic angle, the slow synthesis during the 19th and 20th Centuries, mostly in the Mississippi watershed, of an Afro-Anglo-Celtic style. And that started to come apart with the punk-New Wave era at the end of the 1970s, which was a rebellion, in large part, against the dominance of the blues, as institutionalized by the Brits from the Beatles onward in the sainted Sixties. Devo, with their robotic rendition of the Rolling Stones' "Satisfaction," was a representative New Wave act -- not particularly talented, but that made them more representative than some idiosyncratic genius. Their message was: Let's stop pretending we're Mississippi Delta bluesmen; we're nerdy suburban white kids with three digit IQs.

The problem has become that the punk-New Wave rebellion against the blues got institutionalized, and the same musical styles that were refreshing in 1977-1982 are still hanging around. The more linear, abstracted styles that emerged after 1977 were interesting, but you can't keep mining that vein -- abstracting an abstraction hits diminishing marginal emotional returns pretty quickly.

An article in The New Yorker --"A Paler Shade of White: How indie rock lost its soul" by Sasha Frere-Jones -- starts off as a review of an Arcade Fire concert and then touches on some of these issues.

By the time I saw the Clash, in 1981, it was finished with punk music. It had just released “Sandinista!,” a three-LP set consisting of dub, funk, rap, and Motown interpretations, along with other songs that were indebted—at least in their form—to Jamaican and African-American sources. As I watched Arcade Fire, I realized that the drummer and the bassist rarely played syncopated patterns or lingered in the low registers. If there is a trace of soul, blues, reggae, or funk in Arcade Fire, it must be philosophical; it certainly isn’t audible. And what I really wanted to hear, after a stretch of raucous sing-alongs, was a bit of swing, some empty space, and palpable bass frequencies—in other words, attributes of African-American popular music.

There’s no point in faulting Arcade Fire for what it doesn’t do; what’s missing from the band’s musical DNA is missing from dozens of other popular and accomplished rock bands as well—most of them less entertaining than Arcade Fire. I’ve spent the past decade wondering why rock and roll, the most miscegenated popular music ever to have existed, underwent a racial re-sorting in the nineteen-nineties. Why did so many white rock bands retreat from the ecstatic singing and intense, voicelike guitar tones of the blues, the heavy African downbeat, and the elaborate showmanship that characterized black music of the mid-twentieth century.

Unfortunately, the author appears to be too young to know his history correctly:

"MTV had been on the air for nearly two years before it got up the courage to play the video for Jackson’s “Billie Jean,” in 1983. (Jackson was the first black artist to appear on the channel, though it had played videos by the equally gifted white soul act Hall & Oates.) Jackson’s 1982 album “Thriller” is the second-biggest-selling record of all time (after “Eagles: Their Greatest Hits 1971-1975”), but he alone could not alter pop music’s racial power balance. Black and white musicians continued to trade, borrow, and steal from one another, but white artists typically made more money and received more acclaim."

No, he's confused here. Blacks were huge stars long before then -- Ever hear of the Supremes? Stevie Wonder? Aretha Franklin? Jimi Hendrix? Marvin Gaye? Ray Charles? Johnny Mathis? Nat King Cole? The biggest stars of the post-1964 classic rock era were British (Beatles, Stones, Who, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd), but among American acts, blacks did fine.

The first two years of MTV, 1981-1982, were an anomalous period in which white rock fans were overtly anti-black. (I recall Prince, opening for the Rolling Stones at the LA Coliseum in 1981, being showered with boos no matter how much heavy Hendrix-style electric guitar he laid on.) This was specifically because white rockers blamed blacks (wrongly) for disco. (They should have blamed gays -- as Tom Wolfe pointed out at the time after visiting Studio 54, the music industry was covering up just how gay disco was.) It was a passing phase growing out of the anti-disco backlash, and wasn't true before or after.

"If young white musicians had been imitating black ones, it was partly because they had been able to do so in the dark, so to speak. In 1969, most of Led Zeppelin’s audience would have had no idea that Robert Plant and Jimmy Page had taken some of the lyrics of “Whole Lotta Love” from the blues artist Willie Dixon, whom the band had already covered twice (with credit) on its début album."

Oh, come on ... Everybody knew British rockers were copying black bluesmen. The Brits talked about it constantly -- in their limey speaking accents that contrasted so hilariously with their Memphis singing accents.

Nor were whites only "stealing" from blacks. Consider Aretha's 1967 classic "(You Make Me Feel Like a) A Natural Woman," which was written by the Brill Building husband-wife team of Gerry Goffin and Carole King. Indeed, a strong respect for Jewish showbiz professionalism contributed mightily to black musical success. Most famously, Motown founder Berry Gordy explicitly organized his recording company to mimic the methods of Hollywood movie studios of the 1930s.

The author goes on to make a better point:

"In the mid- and late eighties, as MTV began granting equal airtime to videos by black musicians, academia was developing a doctrine of racial sensitivity that also had a sobering effect on white musicians: political correctness. Dabbling in black song forms, new or old, could now be seen as an act of appropriation, minstrelsy, or co-optation. A political reading of art took root, ending an age of innocent—or, at least, guilt-free—pilfering. This wasn’t a case of chickens coming home to roost. Rather, it was as though your parents had come home and turned on the lights."

For example, after the first rap Top 40 hit in late 1979, white bands released various raps in 1980-81, such as Talking Heads' "Crosseyed and Painless" (with super-nerd David Byrne rapping "Facts are simple and facts are straight / Facts are lazy and facts are late"), The Clash's "Magnificent Seven," and Blondie's #1 hit "Rapture." It was a fun novelty fad, and the cool New Wave bands were hopping on the bandwagon. And why shouldn't they?

Now, though a white performer has to be as good at rapping as Eminem or he'll be tarred as the new Vanilla Ice.

So, white musicians retreated from anything to do with black music, not wanting to be accused of being the new Pat Boone and stealing Little Richard's act.

Meanwhile, it turned out that blacks weren't such almighty natural creative geniuses either, at least when freed of the anxiety of living up to white demands. Black songwriting collapsed. Writing melodic hooks came to be seen as incompatible with keepin' it real. By the 1990s, black songs that weren't raps didn't have much more melody than the raps did. Hip-hop just droned on forever, although it may now, hopefully, be finally dying.

The terrible irony is that blacks turned themselves into new minstrels, acting out ridiculous gangsta rap fantasies for white fans, sometimes with lethal results.

At the Super Bowl halftime show this year, oldtimer Prince gave a tremendous performance in the pouring rain. For his two cover versions, he pointedly chose songs written by whites and covered by blacks -- Bob Dylan's "All Along the Watchtower" (most famously peformed by Jimi Hendrix) and Creedence Clearwater's "Proud Mary" as done by Ike and Tina Turner. His message was clear: Let's get over this obsession with who stole what from whom. Together, we Americans conquered the musical world. We can do it again if we just grow up.

http://isteve.blogspot.com/2007/10/whats-gone-wrong-with-music.html

L
O
L

Ever hear of the Supremes? Stevie Wonder? Aretha Franklin? Jimi Hendrix? Marvin Gaye? Ray Charles? Johnny Mathis? Nat King Cole?

http://keitholbermannisevil.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/wallace-shawn-vizzini.jpg

They should have blamed gays

Their message was: Let's stop pretending we're Mississippi Delta bluesmen; we're nerdy suburban white kids with three digit IQs.

http://www.ownage.nl/images/content/35311.jpg
I'M SMART

Meanwhile, it turned out that blacks weren't such almighty natural creative geniuses either, at least when freed of the anxiety of living up to white demands. Black songwriting collapsed.

wau wau wau

Writing melodic hooks came to be seen as incompatible with keepin' it real. By the 1990s, black songs that weren't raps didn't have much more melody than the raps did. Hip-hop just droned on forever, although it may now, hopefully, be finally dying.

isteve = geirhongro puppet

devolution said...

Yes, it's true that today's popular music is terrible and it has been since the mid 1990's. However, I think this writer, Sasha Frere-Jones, is a bit biased about the cause of this decline. He's a bass player in a white funk band for god's sake.

those comments are creepy

Sasha Frere-Jones (born October 16, 1962 in Melbourne, Australia), better known by his stage name Flea, is the bassist for the alternative rock rock band Red Hot Chili Peppers.

Writing melodic hooks came to be seen as incompatible with keepin' it real. Writing melodic hooks came to be seen as incompatible with keepin' it real. Writing melodic hooks came to be seen as incompatible with keepin' it real. Writing melodic hooks came to be seen as incompatible with keepin' it real. Writing melodic hooks came to be seen as incompatible with keepin' it real.

omg @ those blog comments

White kids didn't just get leary of being accused of mimicking blacks, they got fed up with their parents' obsession with nominating blacks for sainthood. The kids didn't want people to feel sorry for blacks. People should feel sorry for them.

So, white college educated kids came up with some incredible ploys to shift the balance of whining victimhood to themselves. The sexual and physical abuse hysterias of the 80s and 90s helped affluent white kids to position themselves as sainted victims.

But the real coup in this game was outing one's self as gay. A white kid with a dentist father could join the ranks of the sainted oppressed by announcing himself as gay.

I regard about 90% of the kids' gay performances as complete fabrications. I know... I know... It's completely innate and considering the sainted history of gay oppression nobody in their right mind would just pretend to be gay... or engage in homosexual acts for peer approval. Baloney!

In the hip environs where I've lived for 35 years, kids routinely pretend to be American Indians in a ploy for sympathy. Why not pretend to be gay (or even engage in gay sexual acts) if it makes you an object of sympathy, and elevates you to the status of the oppressed?

The kids found a way to occupy the space of the poor oppressed blacks. Just go home on Friday night and announce to the parents that you're gay. Let the fun begin! If they don't immediately embrace you, then the parents (and all adults) are just plain godawful bigots... just like the ones that hosed down those black people in Selma.

And, the solution to the death of the music business is... a return to roots music forms. Time to re-absorb the blues, old time country and gospel.

Oh that Michael Medved.

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In the hip environs where I've lived for 35 years, kids routinely pretend to be American Indians in a ploy for sympathy

^^^
where is this hip environ

hangs out with the village people

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viL3E_1zqU4

lol

In the hip environs where I've lived for 35 years, kids rountinely pretend to be construction workers, policemen and motorcycle gang members in a plot to create campy self-referential dance music.

High School Musical 3?