― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:40 (seventeen years ago) link
This I don't agree with. People do change, but only with extreme self-motivation and lots of time. Always intrinsically. It's a rule of thumb of mine to trust people to what I call (and is probably more eloquently titled elsewhere) 'the law of minimal effective action.' As I've observed, people will set inconcrete goals for themselves, and do as little as they can to achieve them. Goals are so specific and idiosyncratic 'I want an antique Beemer' or 'This year I should become the greatest linotypist in the world' or 'I'd feel more complete with a Zoroastrian girlfriend' that people are forced to change themselves, sometimes, in pursuit of these things. When they reach their desires they change mostly back to the way they were. Mostly. But some of the new self they tried on in pursuit of their X sticks to them. Over time, the accumulation of all these little adjustments, possibilities, makes them/us wider people, with a stranger band of possible actions, a broader selection of selves to use, and a more global personality.
― indian rope trick (bean), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:41 (seventeen years ago) link
― Fire and Worms (kate), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:42 (seventeen years ago) link
― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:48 (seventeen years ago) link
― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:49 (seventeen years ago) link
― Fire and Worms (kate), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:50 (seventeen years ago) link
i see the change when i'm with my parents. now i'm staying with'em in tokyo and i already became "someone else." ;-)
― Nathalie (stevie nixed), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:51 (seventeen years ago) link
I'd like to think that the former is a fixed quantity: we, by and large, always believe X is right and Y is wrong. With some jiggling. But the latter? Personality? defined in my world as an individual set of most-probable actions, responses, and patterns for behavior. Mutable, and in flux, but with defined likelihoods and wheel-ruts from constant travel.
The 'deep layer' you talk about, Beth, seems more like a soul to me than a personality.
― indian rope trick (bean), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:51 (seventeen years ago) link
― indian rope trick (bean), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:52 (seventeen years ago) link
― Ms Misery (MissMiseryTX), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:53 (seventeen years ago) link
No, see I see those core values as the core personality. The other stuff is pretty much the behaviour. The personality is the thing that doesn't change. Everything else gets tossed in the whirlwind of manic depression, that's behaviour, moods, changing things.
I have to believe that the core is the real thing, the immutable thing. Because the behaviour outside bit is so mutable - if I were to go by that, living on 3 continents by the time I was 10, 14 schools in 12 years, dozens of jobs, possibly 50 or more lovers - my god, I wouldn't exist if I called all that my personality.
― Fire and Worms (kate), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:58 (seventeen years ago) link
― Fire and Worms (kate), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:00 (seventeen years ago) link
(xpost) I think personality is an expression of core values, but I also think the tools we use, and the modes of expression we access are unchanging.
Example: SomeZ is on a deep private level unsure of her personal worth. Early in Z's life, there's a lot of bragging, brash adolescent silliness. Even some bullying. But Z grows out of that. As a twenty-something Z feels constantly depressed. Maybe seeks some therapy?? 30s? Z's clinging to a loveless marriage. 40s? Kids, new career, workaholic, making herself indispensible to her clients. 50s? Burnt out, feeling unappreciated, drops out of life a little bit. 60s? Joins a hippie church... doesn't love it, but the people are kind., etc. Always the same person, same drives... but two to people who meet her twenty years apart she might seem 100% different, though always with the same center, same ideals, same core of conscience.
― indian rope trick (bean), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:02 (seventeen years ago) link
― indian rope trick (bean), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:03 (seventeen years ago) link
― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:06 (seventeen years ago) link
thanks CJ. Yes, not to hurt others is urgent and key here.
**why I included parenthood as one of the list of life-changing things that really can permanently alter your outlook.** said Kate.
It's probably the biggest life-change. Suddenly you are totally responsible for them, they totally depend on you. You're responsible for everything from the basics like warmth, shelter, food, safety etc to making provision for their future, teaching them how to navigate their way through physical and emotional changes.
Thinking about it, and going back on what I said before, maybe that does change your personality. You can't act it out, but I guess for the vast majority the bond is so instant and strong that you don't need to. I became more patient, more empathetic, probably more 'gentle' after having children. These maybe go deeper than just new behaviour.
― Dr. C (Dr. C), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:07 (seventeen years ago) link
I think this prospect alone is enough to make me never want kids, to a large extent.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:08 (seventeen years ago) link
I think personality is an expression of core values, but I also think the tools we use, and the modes of expression we access are unchanging.
This actually makes some kind of sense - to an outside observer it would appear that Z is changing her personality like a fashion accessory, but there is a deep core level personality which is not changing, but finding different expressions. Gives me more understanding of why a person would *be* like that.
But this goes back to the same friend I was having the discussion of "falseness" with. My life has been constant flux, I am always looking for things that are the same. Other people, whose lives have been stable sameness are often looking for the differences, the exceptions, the things that change.
― Probability Smear Of Possible Quantum Katehood (kate), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:13 (seventeen years ago) link
― Dr. C (Dr. C), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:17 (seventeen years ago) link
But when I read things like you, Dr. C, and Beth Parker have just written, I am kind of awestruck that people manage to do it. Respect.
― Probability Smear Of Possible Quantum Katehood (kate), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:22 (seventeen years ago) link
― Ms Misery (MissMiseryTX), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:24 (seventeen years ago) link
And when the kids are older The REAL humbler is the realization one what a one-way street parent-child love evolves into. My love for my kids is so devouring and greedy—no way they can love me back that way. They're going to love their own lovers and kids that way. They love me in their way, and certainly want me to BE there, but I still can barely keep my hands off them. It's not useful love for them—that smothering thing, so I'm always curbing it. Stopping myself from asking constant questions, etc. They need some separation!
― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:30 (seventeen years ago) link
― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:32 (seventeen years ago) link
― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:33 (seventeen years ago) link
You're right Beth - I see that distancing starting in my son (aged 14).
I'm a bit of a wreck today. The emotional floodgates that I referred to way upthread may well open wide unless I get off the thread and do something constructive.
― Dr. C (Dr. C), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:33 (seventeen years ago) link
― case of the mutual heart friendship (onimo), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:34 (seventeen years ago) link
Anyway I don't have children, but I think I understand.
― Laurel (Laurel), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:35 (seventeen years ago) link
It's good you feel that way about your kids Beth. B/c I'm not sure all parents do.
― Ms Misery (MissMiseryTX), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:36 (seventeen years ago) link
Yes, pretty OTM once you get past the traumas of adolescence and the necessary separation.
Sometimes I can't stand my mother, sometimes she drives me insane, but I still love her so much I just can't contemplate ever being without me. So much it scares me sometimes. And that's when I get cranky and distancing, maybe. Because I'm scared of losing that love.
― Probability Smear Of Possible Quantum Katehood (kate), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:40 (seventeen years ago) link
I think most parents love their kids massively, even if they're incompetent at putting it into practice. The desire for touch is a very animal thing, the licking of the cubs, regurgitating of food into their mouths, etc.
― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:40 (seventeen years ago) link
And Laurel's right: I adore both of my parents. Complicated, sure, but without reserve.
― indian rope trick (bean), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:40 (seventeen years ago) link
I don't gush about them much
Oh don't worry, please, I wasn't complaining at all! I have so many friends with kids and I love them all -- it's great to be an unofficial uncle to so many around here in particular. But as was noted, it takes a certain kind of person to be a parent -- I don't think I am, though I've been told otherwise. In sum: Dr. C, feel free to talk about yer kids whenever. :-)
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:42 (seventeen years ago) link
― Laurel (Laurel), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:43 (seventeen years ago) link
But I also know, from my too brief experience of being pregnant, that it's not really something you get a choice in, that it's very powerful and primal and hormonal. You can express that love badly, you can mingle it with resentment and other emotions, but it's something that happens on a neurotransmitter level, not a logical level.
Oh, this is making me very sad now. :-(
― Probability Smear Of Possible Quantum Katehood (kate), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:45 (seventeen years ago) link
I wonder about this often in the case of abusive/neglectufl parents. You can chalk their actions up to their own emotional/mental issues but when that treatment of their children never changes. . .when they never acknowledge it, fix it, own up to it?
I can't say I have any massive love for my parents. My mother, yes some, but largely out of obligation. I'm not sure what I'll feel when she dies, probably some guilt, not sure. Overall I've made peace with keeping her at arm's length and disenganging her from my emotions and life as much as possible. She seems to have no problem with this and has never had much to do with my life anyway. I wish my father was already dead.
― Ms Misery (MissMiseryTX), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:46 (seventeen years ago) link
I now look back on childhood memories of dinner through a much different viewpoint.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:47 (seventeen years ago) link
― indian rope trick (bean), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:48 (seventeen years ago) link
― indian rope trick (bean), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:49 (seventeen years ago) link
http://www.awn.com/mag/issue1.3/images/Beck7.gif
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:50 (seventeen years ago) link
So many people are damaged by addictions and undiagnosed mental illness. I'm sure they all have painful moments of lucidity about their parental failings. I don't think my father did, but, oh well.
― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 18:03 (seventeen years ago) link
― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 18:06 (seventeen years ago) link
my point was simply I don't think everyone has that essential parental chip that you and Dr. C were describing. Reproductive organs aside, not just anyone can be a parent.
― Ms Misery (MissMiseryTX), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 18:06 (seventeen years ago) link
― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 18:11 (seventeen years ago) link
― Ms Misery (MissMiseryTX), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 18:13 (seventeen years ago) link
My father was horribly abused as a kid and is GREAT with kids. Ophelia just loves him so much.
― Nathalie (stevie nixed), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 18:15 (seventeen years ago) link
Whoa, I wouldn't go that far!
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 18:17 (seventeen years ago) link
― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 18:20 (seventeen years ago) link
― Ms Misery (MissMiseryTX), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 18:21 (seventeen years ago) link
;-)
― Probability Smear Of Possible Quantum Katehood (kate), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 18:22 (seventeen years ago) link