A Paler Shade of White---Sasha Frere-Jones Podcast and New Yorker article Criticizing Indie Rock for Failing to Incorporate African-American Influences

I think what he was trying to say is that Neko looks good in black.

oh i just saw the "Fact:" part

Fact: Neko Case was born in what may well be America’s squarest city, Alexandria, Virginia. Six miles from downtown Washington, D.C., it’s populated largely by professionals in the military and civil service.

Ok I'm biased, but this former Alexandria professional who now lives across the line in Arlington, Virginia does not agree with the "squarest" proclamation. Plus since Case was just born there and moved at a young age away from there, it really is not relevant at all to describe the city, or to use it as an example to describe Case's style.

x-post
Fact: Neko Case was born in what may well be America’s squarest city, Alexandria, Virginia. Six miles from downtown Washington, D.C., it’s populated largely by professionals in the military and civil service.

Ok I'm biased, but this former Alexandria professional who now lives across the line in Arlington, Virginia does not agree with the "squarest" proclamation. Plus since Case was just born there and moved at a young age away from there, it really is not relevant at all to describe the city, or to use it as an example to describe Case's style.

Fact: this is my opinion

POPESCU: Are you a slow writer, Mr. Martins?
MARTINS: Not when I get interested.
POPESCU: I'd say you are doing something pretty dangerous this time.
MARTINS: Yes?
POPESCU: Mixing fact and fiction.
MARTINS: Should I make it all fact?
POPESCU: Why no, Mr. Martins. I'd say stick to fiction. Straight fiction.

awesome movie

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/music/2007/11/mark_hooper_thurs_pm_pic.html

oh man that Neko lede might be the worst lede of the year

Why doesn't the UK have hip-hop dance crazes?
Dave Stelfox

Go anywhere in the US, from Houston to Hackensack, and folks dance - really dance. And the internet is breaking new styles all the time

http://idolator.com/tunes/affirmative-action/la-times-pens-reponse-to-sasha-frere+jones-thats-possibly-more-infuriating-than-sasha-frere+jones-326238.php

Jess Harvell takes on an LA Times response to Sasha's article

ann powers is such an embarassment

In this week's New Yorker, while discussing Erykah Badu's New Amerykah Part One (4th World War) (which I have not heard), Sasha Frere-Jones, whose work is highly regarded in some quarters, writes the following sentence with what I will go ahead and assume is a straight face:

"Like 'Voodoo' - and like Miles Davis's 'On The Corner,' as several critics have noted - 'New Amerykah' is a relatively short record that feels infinitely relaxed, and favors sound and mood over choruses and verses." [Emphases mine.]

Last time I checked (which was this morning, as I listened to my iPod on the train into NYC), On The Corner had a running time of 54:46 - "relatively short" compared to Morton Feldman's String Quartet No. 2, or Agharta, but not to, say, Rocket To Russia. And certainly not short given the storage capacity of a single vinyl disc - its original format. So let's call that use of "relatively" questionable at best.

The part where SF-J really loses me, though, is his next adverb-adjective combo. Many, many words have been expended describing and analyzing On The Corner. I've written a few myself, here and there. But "infinitely relaxed" is a description I gotta say pretty much anyone with functioning ears can agree does not apply. (The weaselly deployment of "several [unnamed, mind] critics have noted" seems like rockcrit kin to the political campaign tactic of appending "some say" to a hallucinatory critique of one's opponent. If there are really multiple sentient humans who find On The Corner relaxing, I'd like to gather them all in a room sometime - preferably one with an MRI machine.) But hey, when you're making New Yorker money and gadding about the city hosting events and what-all, I guess it's easy to stay relaxed, even with Miles et al. jabbering and squealing in your ear.

It's a poor choice of words, but it seems like he's talking about song form, maybe? Meaning it's not in a hurry to get anywhere in particular.

You also substituted "relaxed" for "relaxing" midway through your post, though they mean rather different things.

"infinitely relaxed" when it's got a marching tempo running through nearly all of it.

Voodoo wasn't exactly a short, sharp sprint of a record either.

"relatively short" when it clocks in at over 62 minutes. I suppose in relation to the average LaMonte Young trance session it would be a little short.

"Determined but patient" is how a proper critic would sum it up.

Maybe SFJ isn't that far off posting pictures of penguins either.

Voodoo is 79 minutes long, so I have no idea what he means by a "relatively short record" other than that it fits on one CD, or that albums are shorter than movies, or something.

Maybe he's never listened to any of these records.

maybe he's so infinitely relaxed when listening to them that he never looks at the time display on the stereo/ipod.

But it's true that Miles usually sounds relaxed - maybe cool would be a better word - no matter what frantic noise is going on around him.

anyway on a quick google it would appear that a lot of people have made the New Amerykah/On The Corner comparison before him (although he doesn't necessarily need that to back up his claim, since he knows a lot of other critics and he may just want to give them credit for something they said in conversations about the record).

IF ONLY SASHA FRERE JONES WAS A PROPER CRITIC

The New Yorker can't afford proper critics. Kael burned them and Tina Brown's overhottied.

Actually I think by "relatively" he meant... ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

In the 90s, if indie rock rejected musical miscegenation and/or (take your pick) the demands and forms of pop culture, why do you think it happened? (To keep the thread tight, assume proposition 1 is true, and that indie rock did reject pop culture and some amount of "blackness," however you want to define that.) Or, what happened?

-- Sasha Frere-Jones (Sasha Frere-Jones), Sunday, April 20, 2003

Man, would I be like really out of line and gauche to ask SFJ to offer up some thoughts on what prompted his own band's pretty tepid and bloodless (but not altogether uninteresting) music? I mean this could be really helpful in terms of moving towards an answer to his own initial question. I mean, SFJ was there.
-- Mr. Diamond (diamond), Sunday, April 20, 2003

I don't get the comparisons at all – cuz OTC is "dense" and "murky" too?

No doubt he remembered Simon "Penguin" Reynolds comparing Fear Of A Black Planet to OTC all those centuries ago and thought it might be worth using again since the Riot Goin' On market is currently listless.

So Kelefa Sanneh's gonna be leaving the NY Times and joining SFJ at the New Yorker, but on the "cultural" beat as opposed to the "pop music" one. Maybe SFJ can bounce (more?) ideas off him

nick ideas morelike

A Paler Shade of White---Sasha Frere-Jones Podcast and New Yorker article Criticizing Indie Rock for Failing to Incorporate African-American Influences
In 2003 writer-musician Sasha Frere-Jones did a presentation at EMP called "The White Noise Supremacists, Part Two The Erasure of Labor, Blackness and Popular Culture from Independent Rock." Now in 2007 he's got a New Yorker article, A Paler Shade of White, a New Yorker podcast, and a link to Lester Bangs 1979 Village Voice article "The White Noise Supremacists" on his blog. Some folks have commented on it on the Bill Cosby thread, and Sasha has already posted some questions on the New Yorker blog that he has received.

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/musical/2007/10/22/071022crmu_music_frerejones?currentPage=1

http://www.newyorker.com/online/2007/10/22/071022on_audio_frerejones

http://www.sashafrerejones.com/ on October 15 he posted the link to the Lester Bangs article

What do ya think?

-- curmudgeon, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 01:43 (5 months ago) Link

lol at 'somebody saw this coming 28 years ago' fuck is he on

the bitching on the cos thread starts here

-- da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 01:47 (5 months ago) Link

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As others have noted, he suggest that indie rockers because of "racial sensitivity" are not trying to incorporate African-American influences, but compliments Eminem, and ignores the attempts of Linkin Park and Maroon 5.

Bill Cosby defents criticism of Hip Hop...music industry "glorifies the wrong things..."

-- curmudgeon, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 01:50 (5 months ago) Link

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5. Lil Wayne. "Believe the hype and then multiply it by ten. You are going to feel dumb if you realize in five years that you were too cool to enjoy the dataflow."

-- and what, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 01:56 (5 months ago) Link

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Several groups that experienced commercial success, such as the Flaming Lips and Wilco, drew on the whiter genres of the sixties---respectively, psychedelic music and country rock...

Psychedelic rock was pretty white in terms of the players, but not the sounds: most psychedelic records in the US were totally blues based, and lots of them in the UK and elsewhere as well (we're leaving Donovan out e.g.). Ditto for country rock in the 60s: listen to the first Flying Burrito Bros record and you'll hear not just blues sounds but soul covers. So this claim is pretty blatantly false.

-- Euler, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 01:56 (5 months ago) Link

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What the hell is Bangs to have supposed to have seen all those years ago? that a genre sfj basically limits to folkies and brian wilson fans wouldn't have much to do with rap?

-- da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:02 (5 months ago) Link

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have you read the Bangs article?

-- Mr. Que, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:04 (5 months ago) Link

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Dude, I first read it in high school.

You remember last year when everybody got all mad at me? If that was—to choose a physical analogy—a rowboat, on Monday we launch the QEII. All I will say is this: listen to the podcast before you write your scathing letter. But by all means—write it. Or anything.

Ok, now I actually feel bad for encouraging this guy.

-- da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:05 (5 months ago) Link

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and uh, no I won't listen to your podcast, your article's a pretty shitty ad for it.

-- da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:06 (5 months ago) Link

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have you read SFJ's article, Mr. Que? It really has nothing to do with punks being ignorant and making bad jokes.

-- da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:07 (5 months ago) Link

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so. . .you don't see a connection between what Bangs said and what SFJ is saying?

-- Mr. Que, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:07 (5 months ago) Link

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But by all means—write it. Or anything.

haha sfj knows he's safe with this one, most of the ppl who hate on him can't be bothered to run any deeper than one-line bitch-outs on message boards

-- J0hn D., Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:08 (5 months ago) Link

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he doesn't have a comment box, dude. and evidently i have to listen to his podcast to have an opinion he wants to hear. that's just cruel.

-- da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:11 (5 months ago) Link

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and this piece is so haphazard and pointless I really don't see how one can "run any deeper" on it without putting a point in his mouth.

-- da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:12 (5 months ago) Link

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you seem awful ticked off, dude. maybe you should try and articulate what's cheesing you off so much instead of bitching about podcasts and remembering good old high school days.

-- Mr. Que, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:13 (5 months ago) Link

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I put a link to the thread where I already did, first post on here.

-- da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:14 (5 months ago) Link

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x-post- Bangs cited specific examples of white punks exhibiting racist behavior. SFJ criticizes Arcade Fire and Wilco for not being rhythmic enough in his article, yet by linking to the Bangs article he is seemingly trying to suggest more. But alas, he has no quotes from Tweedy or Win Butler or whomever saying at a party, "Sasha why you playing that Lil' Wayne'. He lists his e-mail address on his blog btw.

As I watched Arcade Fire, I realized that the drummer and the bassist rarely played syncopated patterns or lingered in the low registers. If there is a trace of soul, blues, reggae, or funk in Arcade Fire, it must be philosophical; it certainly isn’t audible. And what I really wanted to hear, after a stretch of raucous sing-alongs, was a bit of swing, some empty space, and palpable bass frequencies—in other words, attributes of African-American popular music.

There’s no point in faulting Arcade Fire for what it doesn’t do; what’s missing from the band’s musical DNA is missing from dozens of other popular and accomplished rock bands’ as well—most of them less entertaining than Arcade Fire. I’ve spent the past decade wondering why rock and roll, the most miscegenated popular music ever to have existed, underwent a racial re-sorting in the nineteen-nineties. Why did so many white rock bands retreat from the ecstatic singing and intense, voicelike guitar tones of the blues, the heavy African downbeat, and the elaborate showmanship that characterized black music of the mid-twentieth century? These are the volatile elements that launched rock and roll, in the nineteen-fifties, when Elvis Presley stole the world away from Pat Boone and moved popular music from the head to the hips.

Sasha used to love Arcade Fire I thought. He wrote a prior New Yorker article all about them and that show he saw over in London. As others have noted there have been indie bands since the early '80s that did not swing; blues (except for Fat Possum style, Otis Taylor, & chitlin circuit soul) has been transformed by anglos mostly into cliched barband rock; the heavy African downbeat is being kept alive by older African musicians mostly; sometimes Sasha interchanges the term "rock n roll" for indie here without examining non-indie bands; and shouldn't he have said that "African-American rappers" and not "Black musicians" "are now as visible and as influential as white ones. They are granted the same media coverage, recording contracts, and concert bookings" (Non-American black musicians who are not rap or r'n'b are not famous). In his discussion of great live performances he focusses on comparing current indie acts to long-ago African American ones-James Brown and the Meters (there's also no discussion of the muddled embrace jam bands have given to African-American music)

-- curmudgeon, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:14 (5 months ago) Link

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There's already been evidence that SFJ reads ILX threads about himself (and judging by his blog posts he's DYING to) so there's really no reason to e-mail him.

-- da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:17 (5 months ago) Link

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There's already been evidence that SFJ reads ILX threads about himself (and judging by his blog posts he's DYING to) s

LOL, what are you the Sherlock Holmes of the Internet?

-- Mr. Que, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:21 (5 months ago) Link

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da croupier that chip is makin' you look like you're wearing shoulderpads or something

-- J0hn D., Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:23 (5 months ago) Link

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also, just as he's ignoring all the rock bands that aren't "indie rock," he's ignoring all the indie acts that aren't "indie rock" (the stuff that tends to make his best-of lists). He's stacking the deck to a ridiculous extreme.

x-post hey mr. full disclosure feel free to actually acknowledge the complaints rather than settling for "u mad"

-- da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:24 (5 months ago) Link

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"All I have is one-line bitch-outs. This is the fault of the piece I am bitching out."

-- J0hn D., Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:24 (5 months ago) Link

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especially if you're gonna complain about "one-line bitchouts on message boards"

x-post!

-- da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:25 (5 months ago) Link

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Dude with respect it's hard to parse what your complaints are through the foam 'n' froth you're bringing here. Here, let me acknowledge this complaint:

lol at 'somebody saw this coming 28 years ago' fuck is he on

Incisive, penetrating criticism there, da croupier, aka the dude who has the nerve to accuse somebody who actually posts under his name of having disclosure issues

-- J0hn D., Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:28 (5 months ago) Link

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da croupier, if it will make you feel better go ahead and articulate your positions, or complaints. basically as far as i can tell right now your position is: "LOL SFJ Googles himself and didn't write about 311, LOL."

-- Mr. Que, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:29 (5 months ago) Link

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curmudgeon did you the favor of detailing the flaws of the piece in a full paragraph, John. Feel free to respond to it if you think there's no meat.

Mr. que, there was some thread ripping on him a year or so ago and his response-to-the-haters on his blog had some pretty direct references to it.

-- da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:30 (5 months ago) Link

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so?

-- Mr. Que, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:31 (5 months ago) Link

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yeah he ain't you so the line about one-line bitch-outs still sticks man, "co-sign" doesn't count as critique

-- J0hn D., Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:32 (5 months ago) Link

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lol i found ilx through sfj's blog

-- jhøshea, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:33 (5 months ago) Link

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Dude, you said "lol what are you sherlock" when I said I didn't have to e-mail him to know he'd see the complaints here. I'm just explaining.

da croupier, aka the dude who has the nerve to accuse somebody who actually posts under his name of having disclosure issues

Hahaha your name is "John D"?

x-post I'm sorry you're disappointed with the brevity of my disses, John. Still feel free to explain what aside from that and their perceived rancor is ill-minded about them.

-- da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:33 (5 months ago) Link

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this thread deserves better than you, da croupier.

-- Mr. Que, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:34 (5 months ago) Link

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i'm sorry i'm interrupting your contributions to it, Mr. Que.

-- da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:35 (5 months ago) Link

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four-year-old thread on same subject, featuring actual thought and exchange of ideas, here:

Class, etc Pt. 2: Indie vs. Pop Culture

bonus fact: thread was started by sfj

-- J0hn D., Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:36 (5 months ago) Link

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so what do you like about the article, john?

-- da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:37 (5 months ago) Link

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let us exchange thoughts and ideas about it, rather than this unbecoming sniping

-- da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:37 (5 months ago) Link

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(The heavy bass frequencies cause car seats to vibrate, literally massaging the passengers.)

-- Curt1s Stephens, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:38 (5 months ago) Link

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Not attempting to derail the discussion, but: how about some counter-examples in response to SFJ's argument? What are some indie acts that swing, etc.?

Just axing

-- Brad C., Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:39 (5 months ago) Link

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Ignoring his conflation of "rock'n'roll" with "indie rock," his "best-of" lists on his site provide the names of plenty of indie acts that swing as much as the Stones did, especially if we're allowed to include indie dance acts.

-- da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:42 (5 months ago) Link

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you're not talking about the article yet.

-- Mr. Que, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:43 (5 months ago) Link

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I mean, if we're talking about "indie" not "rock," then you have to acknowledge groups like LCD soundsystem, unless by the very act of having a dance beat you're disqualified from the genre, which would make his point fairly moot.

x-post I'm really baffled as to how you and John can keep chastising me for not saying anything when I'm throwing a lot more effort into it than either of you.

-- da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:44 (5 months ago) Link

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i believe anthony's complaints are roughly mine, i.e. that even for a position i might agree with at times (that indie rock shouldn't be so scared of dr. funkenstein) this is a poorly constructed piece of rhetoric that falls apart before it gets anywhere near a finish line but that most egregiously ignores the fact that in many ways indie rock is more connected to "rhythm" than it has been in quite some time (coughcoughDFAsashayouchoadcoughcough). and that john and mr. que's weird pile-up mostly seems born out of unwilling to do the unpacking of the SEVERAL YEARS WORTH OF DISCUSSION WEVE ALREADY HAD ON THIS TOPIC including THE SAME SHIT SFJ TRIED FOISTING UPON US A FEW YEARS BACK CIRCA EMP TIME that anthony has managed to squeeze into his "one-line bitchouts" ala "basically limits to folkies and brian wilson fans" i.e. get the fuck out of here with that reductionist bullshit, to say nothing of the reductionist bullshit that automatically comes from "where has it gone, the fonky fonk of my youth," i.e. putting "black rhythms" up on a pedestal, or ignoring that the vast majority of 70s and 80s white folks music was about as funky as starland vocal band or goddamned wang chung, which also ignores that maybe wang chung and starland vocal band had something to contribute to popular music despite not sounding like either grand funk or the isley brothers.

-- strongohulkington, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:46 (5 months ago) Link

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i could kiss you all ovah

-- da croupier, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:49 (5 months ago) Link

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royal trux
spoon
ween

-- jhøshea, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:49 (5 months ago) Link

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wow, strongo on fire & otm!

da croupier is anthony miccio for those keeping score at home

-- gershy, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:51 (5 months ago) Link

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da croupier, it's not a question of liking or not liking it, I haven't really even thought that hard about it. I'm just sick to death of people reaching, at the earliest convenience, for dismissals as lame and phoned-in as "I'd criticize it if it were coherent!" and so on - it's the sort of thing you see on political blogs, lefties patting themselves on the back for their namecalling skills and righties spitting venom without any particular analysis of their targets, on the grounds that the targets "aren't worth" a thoughtful dismissal instead of ad-homs, nice zings, etc. It's worthless on political blogs and even more pointless when talking about music, though I would say that, since I care a good deal more about music than about politics.

Brad I'd suspect, just knowing sfj's tastes a little, and reading between the lines here (Clash reference, racially loaded words like "miscegenation"), that he's waxing a little nostalgic for stuff like Ludus or Cristina or Essential Logic even New Order: stuff that was in conversation with other genres, not always successfully but interestingly. Which is where his article doesn't go: making an "interesting" record, one that doesn't firmly place itself in one recognizable genre, is something of a risky business move; the more cross-genre an artist gets, the less likely he is to find an audience quickly, and a lot of people feel like if you don't find your audience fast, you're liable to miss the boat. I think he's lamenting how even when a band is said to be "taking risks," they seldom are, and that there was a time when more bands actually did take risks that might have alienated them from their audience but which made for exciting records.

My own position here is that I'm always very suspicious of any "it was better then" thinking. I hate eighties nostalgia with a fucking passion, even though there was a lot of music made in the eighties that I love intensely. But I also don't think it's necessarily a nostalgia trip to talk about stylistic shifts, and with respect to indie rock, it has failed/did fail to seek out the sort of musical cross-pollination that often makes music exciting. Purism's only good at extremes I think, and extreme indie rock is something of a contradiction in terms.

Just thinking aloud/onscreen here and doubt I could defend all this loose stuff but that's my first response.

-- J0hn D., Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:52 (5 months ago) Link

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haha I had no idea da croupier was anthony

-- J0hn D., Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:52 (5 months ago) Link

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the comparison with the white noise supremacists is cute but mostly seems like a lame attempt to draw unfounded connections with a rather virulent strain of direct racism on the cbgb's scene with OMG MUSICAL RACISM THE SILENT KILLER, as if win butler not being bootsy collins is somehow the same as someone writing songs about gooks or a member of teenage jesus hurling the n-bomb at an african-american kid, i.e. it seems to be suggesting that the arcade fire are somehow at some kind of <i>fault</i> for reflecting the music which interests them rather than some idealized polygot mutant sfj has in mind because his wig got flipped as a 13-yr-old to sandinista, which seems about as silly as castigating trae or ne-yo for not incorporating the majesty of born to run into their own little musical worlds. lol you ain't white enough.

-- strongohulkington, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:52 (5 months ago) Link

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i should note that i'm about five beers deep here

-- strongohulkington, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:54 (5 months ago) Link

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I have no beer and I must scream

-- J0hn D., Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:56 (5 months ago) Link

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okay okay i think he's right on the money as to why Wilco and Arcade Fire are so boring. Especially this part:

If there is a trace of soul, blues, reggae, or funk in Arcade Fire, it must be philosophical; it certainly isn’t audible. And what I really wanted to hear, after a stretch of raucous sing-alongs, was a bit of swing, some empty space, and palpable bass frequencies—in other words, attributes of African-American popular music.

But then again, I'm sure he digs Spoon and LCD, and both bands certainly do these things (empty space in their songs, swing) so I don't know. He doesn't talk about either of those bands in the article, so maybe he realizes this? Also, Arcade Fire are really easy to make fun of, so i dunno.

-- Mr. Que, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 02:56 (5 months ago) Link

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Skipping 1407 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

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haha--it just keeps on keepin' on:

http://www.laweekly.com/music/music/neko-case-deep-red-belle/17706/

-- JN$OT, Friday, 16 November 2007 17:41 (4 months ago) Link

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She's an auburn-haired Caucasian woman of Ukrainian descent. Is Case also the blackest woman in indie rock?

-- JN$OT, Friday, 16 November 2007 17:42 (4 months ago) Link

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she's way blacker than the black people in indie rock

-- M@tt He1ges0n, Friday, 16 November 2007 17:54 (4 months ago) Link

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this one's my favorite:

Neko Case’s voice is brassy, miscegenated and classic.

-- Alex in Baltimore, Friday, 16 November 2007 17:55 (4 months ago) Link

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god that thing is retarded.

-- M@tt He1ges0n, Friday, 16 November 2007 17:56 (4 months ago) Link

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l.a. weekly used to be alright, too.

-- omar little, Friday, 16 November 2007 18:06 (4 months ago) Link

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heh, yeah, not a very well thought out piece there. but hey, speaking of this article, i was listening to the new Iron & Wine record last night for the first time, and it's totally, uh, miscegenated! at least half of it is pretty obviously based on African-type rhythms. whether you like I&W or not (I do), it's well-nigh undeniable. Which is a little funny since iron and wine's presence on that Garden State soundtrack puts them squarely in the "why is indie rock so white" sights.

-- tylerw, Friday, 16 November 2007 18:10 (4 months ago) Link

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that's the sort of article that makes one wish that people besides editors don't really care about inside baseball.

-- fukasaku tollbooth, Friday, 16 November 2007 18:10 (4 months ago) Link

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does anything put off readers faster then critics writing about other critics?

-- bnw, Friday, 16 November 2007 18:15 (4 months ago) Link

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The remedy Frere-Jones recommends — “indie rock must embrace soul” — is on par with Clement Greenberg’s championing of Abstract Expressionist painting in the ’50s to the exclusion of other styles, or Pauline Kael’s strident support of films with taboo-busting sex and violence in the ’70s.

no, SFJ writing ABOUT the bands that "embrace soul" would be anything near "on par" with those examples. What a fuckwit.

-- da croupier, Friday, 16 November 2007 18:16 (4 months ago) Link

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What glorious musical times. It’s like a perpetual pop avant-garde that pulls you in rather than pushes you away. It should make us listen widely and carefully. To music, that is, not to dumb pronouncements.

see how it just folds in on itself like that?

-- da croupier, Friday, 16 November 2007 18:27 (4 months ago) Link

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haha--it just keeps on keepin' on:

http://www.laweekly.com/music/music/neko-case-deep-red-belle/17706/

-- JN$OT, Friday, November 16, 2007 12:41 PM (53 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

It's the Hannukah miracle of indie rock criticism.

-- Hurting 2, Friday, 16 November 2007 18:35 (4 months ago) Link

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isn't "Deep Red Bells" three albums into Case's solo career? How can it be an 'earlier composition' when it's closer to the endpoint of her solo career than the beginning?

-- milo z, Friday, 16 November 2007 19:35 (4 months ago) Link

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yeah that struck me as odd too, was wondering if she did a previous version of it or something.

-- bnw, Friday, 16 November 2007 20:22 (4 months ago) Link

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i think that is one of the worst things i have ever read

-- s1ocki, Friday, 16 November 2007 20:32 (4 months ago) Link

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none more black

-- deej, Friday, 16 November 2007 20:32 (4 months ago) Link

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none more hack

-- latebloomer, Friday, 16 November 2007 20:34 (4 months ago) Link

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Readers tuned in to the sturm und drang of music journalism may recognize this introduction as a nod to recent controversy

-- James Redd and the Blecchs, Friday, 16 November 2007 20:44 (4 months ago) Link

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Repeat when necessary

-- James Redd and the Blecchs, Friday, 16 November 2007 20:44 (4 months ago) Link

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It's the Hannukah miracle of indie rock criticism.

It's so poorly written on every conceivable level that I'm kind of shocked (and/or dismayed) that it got published on something other than the author's myspace blog.

-- Sara Sara Sara, Friday, 16 November 2007 20:56 (4 months ago) Link

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I actually meant the topic itself as the metaphor, not the article, but yeah.

-- Hurting 2, Friday, 16 November 2007 20:57 (4 months ago) Link

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I think what he was trying to say is that Neko looks good in black.

-- James Redd and the Blecchs, Friday, 16 November 2007 21:02 (4 months ago) Link

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oh i just saw the "Fact:" part

-- gff, Friday, 16 November 2007 21:09 (4 months ago) Link

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Fact: Neko Case was born in what may well be America’s squarest city, Alexandria, Virginia. Six miles from downtown Washington, D.C., it’s populated largely by professionals in the military and civil service.

Ok I'm biased, but this former Alexandria professional who now lives across the line in Arlington, Virginia does not agree with the "squarest" proclamation. Plus since Case was just born there and moved at a young age away from there, it really is not relevant at all to describe the city, or to use it as an example to describe Case's style.

-- curmudgeon, Friday, 16 November 2007 21:09 (4 months ago) Link

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x-post
Fact: Neko Case was born in what may well be America’s squarest city, Alexandria, Virginia. Six miles from downtown Washington, D.C., it’s populated largely by professionals in the military and civil service.

Ok I'm biased, but this former Alexandria professional who now lives across the line in Arlington, Virginia does not agree with the "squarest" proclamation. Plus since Case was just born there and moved at a young age away from there, it really is not relevant at all to describe the city, or to use it as an example to describe Case's style.

-- curmudgeon, Friday, 16 November 2007 21:10 (4 months ago) Link

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Fact: this is my opinion

-- M@tt He1ges0n, Friday, 16 November 2007 21:16 (4 months ago) Link

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POPESCU: Are you a slow writer, Mr. Martins?
MARTINS: Not when I get interested.
POPESCU: I'd say you are doing something pretty dangerous this time.
MARTINS: Yes?
POPESCU: Mixing fact and fiction.
MARTINS: Should I make it all fact?
POPESCU: Why no, Mr. Martins. I'd say stick to fiction. Straight fiction.

-- James Redd and the Blecchs, Friday, 16 November 2007 21:22 (4 months ago) Link

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awesome movie

-- and what, Friday, 16 November 2007 21:33 (4 months ago) Link

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http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/music/2007/11/mark_hooper_thurs_pm_pic.html

-- titchyschneiderMk2, Thursday, 22 November 2007 16:36 (4 months ago) Link

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oh man that Neko lede might be the worst lede of the year

-- Matos W.K., Thursday, 22 November 2007 16:40 (4 months ago) Link

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Why doesn't the UK have hip-hop dance crazes?
Dave Stelfox

Go anywhere in the US, from Houston to Hackensack, and folks dance - really dance. And the internet is breaking new styles all the time

-- gershy, Thursday, 22 November 2007 16:45 (4 months ago) Link

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http://idolator.com/tunes/affirmative-action/la-times-pens-reponse-to-sasha-frere+jones-thats-possibly-more-infuriating-than-sasha-frere+jones-326238.php

Jess Harvell takes on an LA Times response to Sasha's article

-- curmudgeon, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 15:25 (4 months ago) Link

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ann powers is such an embarassment

-- gershy, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 15:32 (4 months ago) Link

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In this week's New Yorker, while discussing Erykah Badu's New Amerykah Part One (4th World War) (which I have not heard), Sasha Frere-Jones, whose work is highly regarded in some quarters, writes the following sentence with what I will go ahead and assume is a straight face:

"Like 'Voodoo' - and like Miles Davis's 'On The Corner,' as several critics have noted - 'New Amerykah' is a relatively short record that feels infinitely relaxed, and favors sound and mood over choruses and verses." [Emphases mine.]

Last time I checked (which was this morning, as I listened to my iPod on the train into NYC), On The Corner had a running time of 54:46 - "relatively short" compared to Morton Feldman's String Quartet No. 2, or Agharta, but not to, say, Rocket To Russia. And certainly not short given the storage capacity of a single vinyl disc - its original format. So let's call that use of "relatively" questionable at best.

The part where SF-J really loses me, though, is his next adverb-adjective combo. Many, many words have been expended describing and analyzing On The Corner. I've written a few myself, here and there. But "infinitely relaxed" is a description I gotta say pretty much anyone with functioning ears can agree does not apply. (The weaselly deployment of "several [unnamed, mind] critics have noted" seems like rockcrit kin to the political campaign tactic of appending "some say" to a hallucinatory critique of one's opponent. If there are really multiple sentient humans who find On The Corner relaxing, I'd like to gather them all in a room sometime - preferably one with an MRI machine.) But hey, when you're making New Yorker money and gadding about the city hosting events and what-all, I guess it's easy to stay relaxed, even with Miles et al. jabbering and squealing in your ear.

-- unperson, Thursday, 27 March 2008 14:37 (2 hours ago) Link

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It's a poor choice of words, but it seems like he's talking about song form, maybe? Meaning it's not in a hurry to get anywhere in particular.

-- Jordan, Thursday, 27 March 2008 14:41 (2 hours ago) Link

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You also substituted "relaxed" for "relaxing" midway through your post, though they mean rather different things.

-- nabisco, Thursday, 27 March 2008 15:00 (2 hours ago) Link

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"infinitely relaxed" when it's got a marching tempo running through nearly all of it.

Voodoo wasn't exactly a short, sharp sprint of a record either.

"relatively short" when it clocks in at over 62 minutes. I suppose in relation to the average LaMonte Young trance session it would be a little short.

"Determined but patient" is how a proper critic would sum it up.

Maybe SFJ isn't that far off posting pictures of penguins either.

-- Dingbod Kesterson, Thursday, 27 March 2008 15:04 (2 hours ago) Link

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Voodoo is 79 minutes long, so I have no idea what he means by a "relatively short record" other than that it fits on one CD, or that albums are shorter than movies, or something.

-- Alex in Baltimore, Thursday, 27 March 2008 15:10 (1 hour ago) Link

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Maybe he's never listened to any of these records.

-- Dingbod Kesterson, Thursday, 27 March 2008 15:12 (1 hour ago) Link

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maybe he's so infinitely relaxed when listening to them that he never looks at the time display on the stereo/ipod.

-- Alex in Baltimore, Thursday, 27 March 2008 15:17 (1 hour ago) Link

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But it's true that Miles usually sounds relaxed - maybe cool would be a better word - no matter what frantic noise is going on around him.

-- o. nate, Thursday, 27 March 2008 15:19 (1 hour ago) Link

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anyway on a quick google it would appear that a lot of people have made the New Amerykah/On The Corner comparison before him (although he doesn't necessarily need that to back up his claim, since he knows a lot of other critics and he may just want to give them credit for something they said in conversations about the record).

-- Alex in Baltimore, Thursday, 27 March 2008 15:19 (1 hour ago) Link

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IF ONLY SASHA FRERE JONES WAS A PROPER CRITIC

-- max, Thursday, 27 March 2008 15:25 (1 hour ago) Link

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The New Yorker can't afford proper critics. Kael burned them and Tina Brown's overhottied.

-- Dingbod Kesterson, Thursday, 27 March 2008 15:35 (1 hour ago) Link

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Actually I think by "relatively" he meant... ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

-- Hurting 2, Thursday, 27 March 2008 15:35 (1 hour ago) Link

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In the 90s, if indie rock rejected musical miscegenation and/or (take your pick) the demands and forms of pop culture, why do you think it happened? (To keep the thread tight, assume proposition 1 is true, and that indie rock did reject pop culture and some amount of "blackness," however you want to define that.) Or, what happened?

-- Sasha Frere-Jones (Sasha Frere-Jones), Sunday, April 20, 2003

Man, would I be like really out of line and gauche to ask SFJ to offer up some thoughts on what prompted his own band's pretty tepid and bloodless (but not altogether uninteresting) music? I mean this could be really helpful in terms of moving towards an answer to his own initial question. I mean, SFJ was there.
-- Mr. Diamond (diamond), Sunday, April 20, 2003

-- gershy, Thursday, 27 March 2008 15:37 (1 hour ago) Link

er what was the point of that omar?

hm i just meant to quote one of those ¯\(°_o)/¯

lol what he said

Black people: you're alright by me.

glad that's cleared up

was worried for a minute there!

don't be a hatter

Sally and Dom give me ample opportunities to translate rap lyrics, reggae songs, and/or street slang! Like I'm a mouthpiece for many, many cultures of dark-skinned people.

There is white people music and black people music simple as that...there will always be a seperator because both races can never agree on musical stylings...

More importantly, Indie music is not void of African influences. It in fact takes the roots of the african sound, and cuts out the middle man. You could say it has no African American influences, but once again Rock and Roll was formed upon African America music.

Not to mention some of the biggest Indie bands have african influences and even black members. See: Tv on The Radio, The Ruby Suns, Vampire Weekend, Islands, The Arcade Fire, (Does no one realize that Reggine is black? not in skin but in blood SHE HAITIN....theres a song called Haiti on the first fucking album..jesus) Iron and Wine,

the list goes on and on and more importantly Rap artists despised by most music magazines and media are readily accepted by pitchfork and indie media...

the whole idea is absurd as fuck.

The Ruby Suns? What?

The Ruby Suns rock.

SHE HAITIN

Rap artists despised by most music magazines and media are readily accepted by pitchfork and indie media...
Rap artists despised by most music magazines and media are readily accepted by pitchfork and indie media...
Rap artists despised by most music magazines and media are readily accepted by pitchfork and indie media...
Rap artists despised by most music magazines and media are readily accepted by pitchfork and indie media...

Britney can i get your sister jame spears Email why because SHE HAITIN

A SFJ book on this?! Whatever happened to that rap producers one he was working on?

From an Adam Rosen interview with SFJ in Gelf magazine

http://www.gelfmagazine.com/archives/the_new_yorker_gets_pop_cultured.php

GM: You took a lot of flak for your article, "A Paler Shade of White." What do you think was the most valid criticism leveled at you?

SFJ: It was too compressed, so the shorthand did damage. Black-and-white anything—music, in my case—is difficult to discuss because people instantly move from the part to the whole. An aspect of black music becomes all black music becomes black people. This is why there's that slightly awkward phrase on the first page (parodied by the Voice the following week) about sway and bass frequency. I was bending over backwards to try to restrain that point to purely formal attributes, but I am not sure the essay is consistent enough, or specific when it needed to be. I had the same problem with indie rock and mainstream rock. The lines between the groups being discussed weren't clear enough, and hip-hop ended up sounding like a proxy for all black music.
Also, the timeline is off — the shift I was focusing on was really a '90s process. It's a flawed piece; this is why it's becoming a book, as it needs expansion. The experience of being wrong (or sloppy) in public was really fruitful and got me thinking about the critical voice, in general, and how rarely popular critics go back and say, "Hey, I got this wrong." Why don't we? There is also an autobiographical story I need to sort out.

GM: Well…why don't you?

SFJ: That's what the book is going to be, in part.

reading through some of this thread...it's time for my opinions (oh boy)
(disclaimer: have not read year-old article tho most of it has been reprinted here blah blah etc.)

if sfj is wondering why white rock doesn't have any black influences, then he's unfortunately up a creek...rock music has always been such a mishmash of white and black sounds and concepts that to try to even separate and differentiate the two threads would take a man with a substantially higher IQ than sfj (whose IQ is prolley substantially higher than mine btw) to pull off...as a thousand plus posts right here would make evident.

if sfj is wondering why there aren't any great records nowadays like Y, Cut, Dragnet, Entertainment, Unknown Pleasures, etc.: well duh..I wonder the same thing often myself.

if sfj is wondering why indie rockers are turning up their noses at contemporary mainstream R&B, well, then...

bcz the most resonant excerpt from the article is Win Butler at a party wondering why sfj put on Lil Wayne...I mean, I imagine that rock&roll in the 50s was v. likely what mainstream pop is right now: loud, obnoxious, hysterical, unapologetic in its uniform desire to express/inhabit/embody teenage kicks, and most importantly almost universally derided by the world as pure unadulterated adolescent trash...I mean, we like Soulja Boy and T-Pain, but most people, esp. parent, to them it's crap...and Wim Butler falls into that category, and it kinda freaks sfj out.

Beatles Analogy: We can all read Shout! and cheer on Lennon for being a Teddy Boy, obssessed with Elvis, Buddy Holly, Carl Perkins, Chuck Berry, Gene Vincent, Eddie Cochran, well into his tenure at artschool, while his classmates were into farty bigband jazz, and we watch with pleasure as all that jazz is washed away by the deluge, but fast-forward 50 years later and it turns out that sfj looks out into the crowd and sees a bunch of tripey-nerdy jazzheads where the indie-rock scene used to be and he wonders how he got on the wrong side of the fence i.e. how did we lose the script? why is indie so resolutely complacent-uncool-stupid? "why do i hang out with a bunch of dorks? am i a dork? i can't be a dork, i listen to james brown, and the clash and liquid liquid..."

and though i think a few people have brushed on this (disclaimer: i have not read the whole thread) it might be worth some discussion.

(tho i think implicating the 80s hardcore-post-hardcore scene is pretty much otm. i wonder what paul westerberg in 1985 would have said if he was a t a party and somebody put on some prince...suggesting that prhaps it was all illusion, maybe indie-rock was never cool...)

(tho maybe paul w. liked prince. idk. that's why i wonder...)

(of course, i imagine 90% of ilm, if they never hear the word cool again it will be too soon.)

one more thing:

I I remember the prominent general music critic Henry Pleasants made this very complaint about "loss of black influences" when he first heard the Velvet Underground. What a surprise that bands that follow in their footsteps should not break away from the trend!

― Cunga, Tuesday, October 16, 2007 5:20 PM (10 months ago) Bookmark Permalink

AAAAAAAAAARGH! Does anyone else here listen to White Light/White Heat and not hear a great dub record?

(of course, it's totally possible I might not be sure what dub is...)

Man, would I be like really out of line and gauche to ask SFJ to offer up some thoughts on what prompted his own band's pretty tepid and bloodless (but not altogether uninteresting) music? I mean this could be really helpful in terms of moving towards an answer to his own initial question. I mean, SFJ was there.
-- Mr. Diamond (diamond), Sunday, April 20, 2003

More importantly, Indie music is not void of African influences. It in fact takes the roots of the african sound, and cuts out the middle man. You could say it has no African American influences, but once again Rock and Roll was formed upon African America music.

All "rock" music is more or less influenced by black music, but you could say that indie has some white influences too while the white influence on contemporary R&B is very close to zero.