Going To Law School

Also, you should strongly consider taking an LSAT prep course if you can swing it. If nothing else, buy a book on it and practice.

There is no undergrad law major at most top American colleges. An English BA is completely acceptable, common even, and I don't think any one major is favored. I wonder at times if the sciences aren't better preparation for legal study than the humanities.

Last but not least, people that attended/still attend law school - is it everything you had hoped for (for whatever reason you decided to go)? Would you recommend it?

i would recommend trying to get some inside info on whatever law school it is that you will attend -- you will spend 3 years there, so you might as well go where it won't be too painful.

But that's a separate question from whether I would recommend it. D, I'm just not sure how to answer that. Law school in and of itself is neither good nor bad. As some posters have suggested upthread, that question can only be judged in relation to what you want in life and work.

If you have a strong desire to practice law (lawyer) or to create law (politics, legislation, lobbying, policy-making) then law school is the way to go. If however you suspect that your heart is really elsewhere (publishing, journalism, teaching, business, etc), then I'd say think real hard about whether 3 yrs of law school is the best way to get there. And if you're not sure about what you want to do, then I'd say law school is not the right place for you now. Maybe later it will be, but not now.

Sorry if this sounds redundant and obvious.

I'm about a month or so away from hearing from law schools (I got some good advice on old threads which I'll try to find). Law schools like people who have worked and have diverse experience, so don't think that your background is a negative.

Biggest thing I'd reiterate is to really make sure you want to invest the time and money (average debt leaving law school is $100,000). It's understood that law school is highly competitive -- both to get in and once you're there -- in the sense of the school you get into and how well you do have a major impact on your career. Not that that should necessarily guide you, but just know it upfront.

Oh. And for $10 or $20, you can look at the US News law school rankings online. They'll give you a good sense of what sorts of grades and LSAT scores get you into what schools.

You've already heard about the cost, which is significant. You should enjoy speaking in public and be confident about your ability to do so, and you should be competitive by nature--these qualities will serve you well. Think hard about your decision; many of my law school classmates were completely miserable. It's great for some, but it isn't for everyone. Good Luck!

Now she wishes she'd stayed in, as we would be rich. And, probably, the whole dealing-with-me thing.

but you still gotta spend 3 years there and get the JD in order to sit for the bar and (if you pass) practice.

Not necessarily; it's a decent living, but there is no guarantee of richness--plenty of other careers will bring salaries as high as attorney salaries. Also, in order to make the big bucks, you need to bill upwards of 2000 hours/year, and in order to do this generally must work around 70 hours per week. When you break it down, the time/money ratio can really suck.

I will be joining a City firm as a trainee soon. I feel apprehensive to say the least...

On the other hand, if you are willing to work your ass off to make something work and starve for a few years after law school, there are good jobs as a lawyer to be had.

x-post: all of the smartest, most interesting paralegals I ever worked with who took the job as a taste test all decided to do something else with their lives.

everyone asks me if i want to go to law school, and I always tell them no. once you work at a big firm, the luster runs off real quick. its like 'do you want to work 12 hours a day every day, have nice clothes and a nice car but absolutely no time whatsoever to enjoy them?' also, if i ever get into the situation of having a family or whatever, work would totally dominate all of your time you could be spending with them.

ive heard theres some decent firms out there that let you leave at 530, but i would assume that theyre the exception rather than the rule.

paralegaling isnt a bad gig tho. The money isnt that bad, there's tons of overtime opportunities if youre into that sort of thing, and the hours arent too heinous most of the time.

in california at least.. you can go to school for it, but its a colossal waste of time and money. All you really need is a bachelors (and its one of the few fields where having an arts/humanity degree is helpful. mine is in history) and a legal employment agency. almost all law firms use legal recruiting/temp agencies because they dont want to screen the employees themselves and they tend to get decent people as a result. i got my start by answering a legal recruiter ad looking for someone with a BA, an 'attention for detail and organizational skills.'

once you actually get your foot in the door all you need to do is work in a law firm for a year, get some good experience and then have someone who passed the bar to sign a form that basically cites some stuff from the california business practices codes and statutes and BAM. youre a paralegal. no certificate, no school, none of that.

So yes, I second the idea of working in the area of law in which you are interested before doing anything drastic.

Also, to quote some lawyer friends of mine: "law school is basically trade school. Do not go to law school unless you really want to be a lawyer." So yes, if you think you'd like to be something other than a lawyer, there is probably a better way of getting there.

amen, and so MFOTM that it coulda been me who said that :-)

theres a grip of legal placement agencies. i used kelly legal. they seem to place alot of people with big firms. or at least my own firm. which is big.

if youre up north in the bay area, try landmark legal. nice people.

thats the beauty of the legal profession. you dont have to do half the work you would trying to find other kinds of work. i got my job here after being unemployed for 5 weeks a year and a half ago when the economy was SHIT-TAY. paralegaling is kind alike nursing in that respect. quite recession-proof.

law is still very much an apprenticeship model with a licensing requirement on the front-end, where you eat shit for the first couple of years before they let you do anything fun.

part of why I'm seriously considering it (as opposed to idly considering it) is that there is a lawyer who does a lot of what I am interested in doing who I have a good relationship with and he is highly in demand and has to turn down work. So, part of my thought is I could intern/apprentice under this guy.

-finally, i know you'll ask around and get a wide variety of perspectives and everything, but ime it's just gonna be one of those things that you won't know if you'll like until you actually do it. and that sucks, because by that time you'll have lost 3 years of your life (and have gone in debt, if you took out loans) and that sucks. there are people who go to law school with the expectation of loving it and find out they absolutely hate it after graduating, and there are those who go in expecting to hate it but find it's tolerable and pays the bills. so, uh, i dunno what to tell you here. at the end of the day, i'd hate for you to go to law school only to end up at an insurance defense mill or something (hopefully not offending any ilxors who are insurance defense attorneys).

― 龜, Wednesday, December 7, 2022 1:20 PM (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Great post imo, especially this ^^^, which is what I was thinking of when I used the term “grind”.

I was an insurance defense attorney for two years early in my career and hated it. It doesn’t pay very well, you receive very little training, and it doesn’t really lead to other better careers except maybe plaintiff’s counsel. I was able to maneuver/luck into an in-house position that was much better, but I don’t know if I would be practicing now if I hadn’t.

My new hobby has been reading state supreme court and court of appeals opinions, the main thing I'm learned is some people are crazy as balls

I was thinking of doing a combination of tax law (I already have a tax prep practice) and perhaps land use/tenants rights and work for nonprofits?

― sarahell, Wednesday, 7 December 2022 08:35 (thirteen hours ago) link

I am still not sure— I need to do some thinking.

I am primarily interested in contracts, for what it is worth. In my paralegal days, the cases involving nitty-gritty reads of contracts were my favorites.

I am torn between leaning into my current life and work as an educator, which is by all accounts going reasonably well but is financially unstable, or going into law, which seems like the most reasonable option if I want to work in a field I find interesting and have experience in.

I know these aren’t necessarily the best reasons. But I’m a poet who is nearly 40 and whose main marketable skills are in educating and editing, and those jobs are either impossible to find or pay absolute dick.

― Goose Bigelow, Fowl Gigolo (the table is the table), Wednesday, 7 December 2022 12:05 (ten hours ago) link

I don't think either of these sound like terrible reasons, fwiw. I definitely went in for reasons somewhat like yours table, although I was 29 rather than 40. I was an english major who had tried journalism and decided it wasn't for me, so it was either law or english teacher. As I said above, I did find a niche I like and ultimately a firm I like.

Fact that you both have some familiarity with the real world aspects of law practice is a good thing.

I honestly don't know a lot about the market for tax lawyers -- I have a vague impression that it's a good specialty to have because it's "unsexy" and therefore you don't have tons of law grads clamoring to do it. But I can't swear to that. The only thing I'd say about being a tax lawyer is that a lot of your work may wind up involving helping well-off people try to avoid paying taxes or avoid punishment for not paying taxes. That's not meant as a judgment on you if you do it, just as a caution if it isn't what you want. But it's pretty far outside my zone, so I would try to talk to tax lawyers about the practice.

All I know is the most expensive outside lawyers my company has ever retained were big law tax lawyers for an m&a deal.

people who have a genuine interest in law are mostly perverts,

lol, otm. What I mainly learned in con law, for example, is that I fucking hate con law, hate the supreme court, and hate people who are on the supreme court's jock. I often found myself thinking, if these are the best legal minds in the country, that's pretty poor reflection on the rest of us. I hated people who said "But you have to admit, Scalia is a great writer." No he fucking isn't, your mind is warped because you haven't read a normal book for the last year. And that was before the court pretty much became a council of fundamentalist clerics. I don't read SCOTUSBlog, I don't listen to the oral arguments, I don't read the journalists who cover SCOTUS, some of whom are admittedly very good. I minimize my exposure to the law to things that are directly relevant to my work.

Too much of the time, law is the art of pretending you are operating on principles when you actually aren't.

I litigate, so I deal with caselaw all the time, but mostly I care about the facts and the story and why they are compelling. Sometimes the law completely hamstrings you in unjust ways, other times you have a gap you can sneak through with a good enough set of facts and story. "Thinking like a lawyer" is mostly sophistry, but I am in a somewhat white hat area of law and try my best to bend things toward justice when I can. And toward money, of course, I don't work for a non-profit and we have to keep the business going.

That's my rant.

The only thing I'd say about being a tax lawyer is that a lot of your work may wind up involving helping well-off people try to avoid paying taxes or avoid punishment for not paying taxes.

Hey, it's a pretty good living.

i would love to hear your advice/thoughts, jim.

part of why I'm seriously considering it (as opposed to idly considering it) is that there is a lawyer who does a lot of what I am interested in doing who I have a good relationship with and he is highly in demand and has to turn down work. So, part of my thought is I could intern/apprentice under this guy.

― sarahell, Wednesday, December 7, 2022 1:29 PM (yesterday)

sounds like a great opportunity to gain experience and do something you're already doing. would there be an expectation of him giving you clients? if so, i'd be a little skeptical. but otherwise it's always great to have a known quantity.

Not necessarily? Like, the way I know him is that we have about a half dozen clients in common -- he is their lawyer and I am their accountant/tax person.

I also have tax clients that will ask me for legal advice and help and I will of course say, "I can't. I am not a lawyer"

Are you a CPA, sara?

I was an EA, then let my credential lapse (didn't do my CPE back in the mid 2000s) ... I currently am just an RTRP and have my state tax credential for limited practice (CTEC in CA), which means I have to be careful about how many clients in NY and OR I get paid to help, because otherwise I would have to get a license in those states. If I got my EA credential back, I wouldn't have to worry about the state accreditation.

This afternoon I get to attend what is hopefully the last meeting with the County Assessor over a client's welfare exemption (from property tax) where I am working with an actual lawyer who mostly specializes in property tax issues for low-income housing. The client is a charitable org, so the lawyer has less familiarity with the code/statutes/caselaw regarding that category of exemption, whereas I am very familiar with tax exemption issues for charitable orgs but not so much on the property tax issues.

income tax exemption issues = I know really well; property tax issues == i know less well, but I also know way more about building codes and permits than most tax people (sigh)

Wow. I was a windbag my third year of law school.

I ended up graduating into a recession so I took the first job I could find, which was at a state workers’ comp agency. That job was trash (although, workers’ comp law is pretty interesting) and I ended up jumping straight into the loving arms of Big Law after five years and doing (sigh) single plaintiff ERISA benefits work aka insurance defense, which is pretty gross. I did that for almost 10 years because I got pregnant shortly after starting and the job was flexible and sometimes the partners were chill and the money was good and the work was interesting. Eventually it was too soul-destroying and now I’m a “knowledge management attorney” for a different big firm specializing in employment law and that is a really sweet gig.

I stayed as union-adjacent as I could for awhile, hoping I could get back into it, working as a steward for my union and doing pro bono worker rights stuff and got too close to how that particular sausage is made. I’m not anti-union, but I’m real glad I didn’t end up in labor law after all.

Anyway, my general advice is the same, which is only go to law school if you want to practice law. I’d refine it a little to say only go to law school if you can do it without incurring any debt or if you’re willing to work a less than ideal job for a decade or so while you pay off debts/get your career sorted out.

Oh, but I think you should both totally go to law school. Why not?

I have decided against for now, will consider again in a few months. A friend of a friend heard I was considering it and messaged me, saying: Look, do what you have to, but I was in your same position a year and half ago and was told to really just push hard at what I was already doing, switched up some language in my resume and CV, and now I have a good fulltime job that allows me to read and write, too.

I am going to see how that works.

I appreciate all of the lawyerly advice, tho. I should mention my dad is a smalltown lawyer who has been working for nearly fifty years and doesn’t show any signs of stopping because he loves his job.

carl! agatha!!!!!

table is your dad going to say good-naturedly grumpy things like "well you could've done that 20 years ago but better late than never here's a new pair of suspenders"

Good luck, table! Hi, silby!

I can’t imagine a more anxiety inducing profession but ymmv

I stayed as union-adjacent as I could for awhile, hoping I could get back into it, working as a steward for my union and doing pro bono worker rights stuff and got too close to how that particular sausage is made. I’m not anti-union, but I’m real glad I didn’t end up in labor law after all.

thanks carl, and silby, my dad has always said “you’d be a great lawyer but i never wanted to pressure you to do anything,” which frankly, thanks dad. obviously he wishes i made more money, but he also understands the unique position i’ve been in— graduated college in 07, got downsized from my first job after the crash, went to get my MFA, could only find weird gigs for years, etc.

I can’t imagine a more anxiety inducing profession but ymmv

Dentistry

Anyway, my general advice is the same, which is only go to law school if you want to practice law. I’d refine it a little to say only go to law school if you can do it without incurring any debt or if you’re willing to work a less than ideal job for a decade or so while you pay off debts/get your career sorted out.

― carl agatha, Thursday, December 8, 2022 2:47 PM (two hours ago)

yeah, I am basically thinking in terms of whether/how much debt it would lead to and what lifestyle changes I'd have to make in order to carry that debt burden. Currently I have no kids, no spouse, no debt .... but am a renter, so, I might just not do law school and buy a house instead. My Great Great Uncle was a lawyer who never went to law school, but there were ways to, I guess work and test out of the academic requirements? He ended up a judge so, I'm assuming he was a pretty good lawyer?

my dad has always said “you’d be a great lawyer but i never wanted to pressure you to do anything,” which frankly, thanks dad. obviously he wishes i made more money,

my mom says the same thing to me, tbh, she will also say, "Sarah, three words, estates and trusts."

I forget which season of Better Call Saul it was where he went into elder law but ... when I watched that, I could hear my mom saying "estates and trusts" and also my grandmother periodically updating her will to change which relative she is going to leave her best china to based on recent behavior

Yeah, I would explore what actually practicing law looks like. I mean, there is huge variety, but I would focus less on "law school" and more on "what my life would be like if I were a lawyer." It's been a great profession for me, but it's not for everyone. Again, I would talk to as many practitioners as you can.

As far as specifically being a tax lawyer goes, I think the biggest difference is that your role is much more as planner and advocate than preparing returns and working in compliance. As someone said upthread, if you are at a big firm you will spend your time working on huge transactions to minimize the economic hit of taxes, or possibly defending very large taxpayers against the IRS (or FTB, NY DOR, etc.). I spend most of my time helping individuals and families plan for wealth transfer. However, I know plenty of practitioners at small shops or solo firms who do quite well for themselves. The guy who does my taxes is a CPA and attorney whose practice is divided between return preparation and representation of clients before the IRS. He has a small staff and an excellent reputation; I don't think he's hurting for work.

]my mom says the same thing to me, tbh, she will also say, "Sarah, three words, estates and trusts."

+1

California probate work is quite abundant and profitable.

Prop 19 that recently passed is probably a gold rush for the profession

It's a gigantic pain in the ass, is what it is.

Welp, paid my fee and I’m taking the LSAT in October

Good luck, table.

yay!!! meanwhile, me and my coworker recently discussed both of us going to law school and being "study partners" ... i don't think this will happen tbh ... i will probably be posting to this thread about considering going to law school until ilx dies or I die haha