definite articles

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Sterling no they don't necessarily! People will say "I just got back from the bar" the way they'd say ... well, if you called and said "what are you doing," I might say "not much, just sitting on the couch."

It's a form of "the" where the definite part of the article is definiteness in the speaker's mind -- definiteness that's too banal to bother specifying. If I say "I'm going to a store," that sort of implies some random or unfamiliar store, and you'll probably ask which store I mean. If I say "I'm going to the store," I'm referring to a particular store, but I'm just not bothering to specify which -- because I'm trusting you to assume that it's just the (the!) corner store or whatever.

It makes total sense, the more I think about it.

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 20:58 (eighteen years ago) link

Like in "This is the End," Jim Morrison was affecting a British thing, otherwise he would've sang "Father, I'm going to THE kill you." Whatta fancypants.

― Abbott (Abbott), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 20:58 (eighteen years ago) link

"Prom" as pseudo-holiday makes a lot of sense -- that's why I referred to it as not just an event but a phenomenon. You wouldn't drop the article in a sentence like, "What are you bringing to company picnic?" but you would if your company picnic had a goofy name like Picnictime, which was called the same thing every year with the same set of traditions associated with it.

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 20:59 (eighteen years ago) link

definiteness that's too banal to bother specifying

I like this.

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 21:00 (eighteen years ago) link

I have two friends from Texas who omit articles in all kinds of weird situations, especially after directional prepositions, e.g. "Let's get in car and go to beach!" and "I tossed it in trash." but also "Just take elevator to the top floor." Some day I'll sit down and really figure out their idiolect's idiosyncrasies.

― Paul Eater (eater), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 21:12 (eighteen years ago) link

(Also we need British people to explain some of their more dialect-type constructions in this field, like using "down" and no article -- "I'm going down chip shop.")
Well yes, the two voices I hear that being said in are working class Northern and Londoner.

Similarly, a Northerner might say "I'm going to pub".

I haven't heard anyone say that. I have heard people shorten the word the to just a t sound, or sometimes when people are speaking lazily the the comes out as just a vowel-like syllable "I'm going down uh chip shop", but I've not heard it missed out completely. Perhaps I just haven't met enough northerners.

― Cathy (Cathy), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 21:25 (eighteen years ago) link

yeah, I think there is a "the" in those, usually, maybe you just can't hear it, always

― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 21:29 (eighteen years ago) link

Paul are you sure they're not just under-enunciating the articles? I've read your sentences aloud in the Texas accent I know, and it seems like the "the" is there but just barely gestured to in speech, "take (imperceptible schwa) elevator" or "tossed it in (imperceptible schwa) trash" ...

serendipitous xpost with Cathy and RJG!

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 21:31 (eighteen years ago) link

I'm sure! They're both decent enunciators, and you can tell from the rhythm of the sentence that nothing's being sotto-voced. They don't really have Texas accents anyway. They may just do it to freak people out.

― Paul Eater (eater), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 21:35 (eighteen years ago) link

Some people seem to actually kind of inhale a little when forming those minor words, which makes for lots of dropping and tossing-off. I can definitely imagine a southern "tosse inn(a) tryash" thing.

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 21:36 (eighteen years ago) link

There are some rules operating but I don't know quite what they are. She'll say "I'm gonna take a bath" but "I'm gonna take bus."

― Paul Eater (eater), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 21:37 (eighteen years ago) link

Yeah, I can see that. In their minds I think the article is still there. It's a style thing, it makes the sentence sound more abrupt and direct.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 21:43 (eighteen years ago) link

To my ears the stylistic effect is like they're living in a nursery school world where everything has proper names: let's ride Bus! No, Bus took us last time, and Train must feel so left out!

But actually they do acknowledge that they're dropping articles right and left; they just don't see why I care.

― Paul Eater (eater), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 21:48 (eighteen years ago) link

OK, "let's ride bus" sounds totally wrong. For some reason the trash and the elevator made sense, but not that.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 21:50 (eighteen years ago) link

To my ears the stylistic effect is like they're living in a nursery school world where everything has proper names: let's ride Bus! No, Bus took us last time, and Train must feel so left out!

Ha ha. Putting this thought in my head makes me love this formulation. I'm imagining Mr Big Smiley Bus and I'm going ride him tomorrow morning!

― Alba (Alba), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 21:56 (eighteen years ago) link

two weeks pass...

Is it true that Britishes say "in jungle" where Americans would say "in the jungle" (i.e., as with "hospital")?

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 16:40 (eighteen years ago) link

No (not this one anyway)

― theantmustdance (theantmustdance), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 16:52 (eighteen years ago) link

I may have been misinformed!

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 16:55 (eighteen years ago) link

Welcome to Jungle!

― martin m. (mushrush), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 17:42 (eighteen years ago) link

We've got a bit of fun!

― Tracey Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 17:45 (eighteen years ago) link

[Post one photo of creative anachronist frontman flautist here]
"Bungle In Jungle"

― In The Court Of The Redd King Harvest (Ken L), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 17:45 (eighteen years ago) link

The Beast In Jungle!

― In The Court Of The Redd King Harvest (Ken L), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 17:50 (eighteen years ago) link

King of Jungle!

― martin m. (mushrush), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 17:51 (eighteen years ago) link

The Rumble In Jungle!

― In The Court Of The Redd King Harvest (Ken L), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 17:54 (eighteen years ago) link

George of Jungle!

― phil d. (Phil D.), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 17:55 (eighteen years ago) link

In Jungle Groove!

― In The Court Of The Redd King Harvest (Ken L), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 17:56 (eighteen years ago) link

Upton Sinclair's "Jungle!"

― phil d. (Phil D.), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 17:58 (eighteen years ago) link

From a BBC report:

"Japanese officials are investigating claims that two men living in
jungle in the Philippines are Japanese soldiers left behind after
World War II."

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 18:43 (eighteen years ago) link

I would assume that is a mistake.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 19:08 (eighteen years ago) link

Ananova - Jordan's boobs 'may explode' in jungle

― theantmustdance (theantmustdance), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 19:15 (eighteen years ago) link

American jungle headlines aren't such fun:

'Lost world' found in jungle.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 19:31 (eighteen years ago) link

Obv. we should discount headlines from the definite article question, because headlines tend to drop definite articles for space, anyway.

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 19:34 (eighteen years ago) link

Honest jay - people here don't say "in jungle".

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 19:40 (eighteen years ago) link

Okay!

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 19:41 (eighteen years ago) link

I may start now, but to be honest I don't have that many conversations about jungles on an average day.

― theantmustdance (theantmustdance), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 19:41 (eighteen years ago) link

They can't be that hard to engineer. You could come in from lunch and say "It's jungle out there" for a start.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 19:45 (eighteen years ago) link

"the fast tempos used in jungle and drum and bass"

― RJG (RJG), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 20:01 (eighteen years ago) link

I have to admit, that BBC thing had me fooled for a while there.

It's like jungle sometimes
It makes me wonder
I don't know how
I keep from going under

I knew somebody was gonna post that Jordan thing.

― In The Court Of The Redd King Harvest (Ken L), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 20:09 (eighteen years ago) link

Bwahahahah I came back here to post "It's like jungle sometimes" and I have been beaten to the punch!

― martin m. (mushrush), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 20:24 (eighteen years ago) link

Sorry, martin. While you're here, let me say there was a long time when I thought you were going to apply your studio wizardry to actually make the recording discussed in this post.

― In The Court Of The Redd King Harvest (Ken L), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 20:32 (eighteen years ago) link

Ha ha ha ha I totally forgot about that.

Too much time spent in jungle!

― martin m. (mushrush), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 20:34 (eighteen years ago) link

in that bbc article the "in jungle" surely means in "jungle terrain" as a opposed to a jungle as a definable area

― ambrose (ambrose), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 21:56 (eighteen years ago) link

Perhaps, but I've never actually heard that distinction made before.

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 22:17 (eighteen years ago) link

"Japanese officials are investigating claims that two men living in
jungle in the Philippines are Japanese soldiers left behind after
World War II."

the mistake here is that they left the "are" in the headline!

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Tuesday, 11 April 2006 22:23 (eighteen years ago) link

"two men ... are Japanese soldiers" ?

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 22:24 (eighteen years ago) link

Off topic, but:

"You are smarter than me."

"You are smarter than I."

Because generally speaking "I" is a subject and "me" is an object, but then if you add "am" as the final word, the first choice falls apart.

Is it something about the word "than" that makes the next noun a subject instead of an object? I'm a little drunk and not sure what the answer is.

― polyphonic (polyphonic), Wednesday, 12 April 2006 04:20 (eighteen years ago) link

I love how ILX periodically gets grammar fantods. It's like some kind of natural cycle.

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Wednesday, 12 April 2006 04:50 (eighteen years ago) link

In "You are smarter than me.", 'You' is the one doing the areing.

If you add 'am', 'I' is the one doing the aming.

― theantmustdance (theantmustdance), Wednesday, 12 April 2006 06:06 (eighteen years ago) link

But then isn't "me" improper because you would not refer to yourself at the end of a sentence without the "am". (Hint, substitute "Elmo" or "Bob Dole" for "me".)

― dave $1.83 (dave225.3), Wednesday, 12 April 2006 11:39 (eighteen years ago) link

But then isn't "me" improper

Technically yes -- there's a good summary of the issue here.

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 12 April 2006 12:27 (eighteen years ago) link

I love how ILX periodically gets grammar fantods. It's like some kind of natural cycle.

Dan Me OTM.

― StanM (StanM), Wednesday, 12 April 2006 12:35 (eighteen years ago) link

Thanks for link, jaymc. I like how the guy uses "than me" as part of a big headline on his homepage with the "than me" linked to that same place.

― In The Court Of The Redd King Harvest (Ken L), Wednesday, 12 April 2006 12:41 (eighteen years ago) link

I love how ILX periodically gets grammar fantods. It's like some kind of natural cycle.

When you are a mediocre editor (as I undoubtedly am), grammar fantodry is unavoidable.

Thanks for the insight, y'all.

― polyphonic (polyphonic), Wednesday, 12 April 2006 15:58 (eighteen years ago) link

three months pass...

"My car is in the shop."

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 10 August 2006 14:42 (seventeen years ago) link

eight years pass...

Lol at this thread

― How I Wrote Matchstick Men (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 7 July 2015 05:29 (eight years ago) link

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