Richard Dawkins - Anti -Christ or Great Thinker?

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Reading The Selfish Gene, aged about 17, had probably the biggest effect on my thinking of any book I've ever read.

N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 17 November 2003 11:05 (twenty years ago) link

Erm, OK, maybe I'm missing something because I haven't read all of Dawkins' books, but... I don't see the leap from ESS to political systems. I'm sure a lot of people have made a lot of INTERPRETATIONS of his work that are not in line with what he actually says - the same way that Social Darwinism was a complete misinterpretation of the Origin Of Species.

Dawkins stresses that TSG is not as negative as it sounds, and points out 1) many ways in which altruism is an ESS, and 2) that we have the self knowledge and therefore the ability to *not* be fatalistic about selfishness.

Citizen Kate (kate), Monday, 17 November 2003 11:08 (twenty years ago) link

i'm not talking about dawkins so much as the dawkins meme in the press at large -- most liberals will reach for the 'we're all selfish innately' stick in a tight corner. i don't dispute our selfishness etc at all, just this application of the idea.

enrique (Enrique), Monday, 17 November 2003 11:12 (twenty years ago) link

The "Dawkins meme" is a misunderstanding of what Dawkins is saying, and I don't think he can be blamed for that.

I mean, misunderstanding number one is that "the selfish gene" means that somehow there is a "gene for selfishness" which we all have. When the title of the book refers to the fact that it is the actual chromosomes which are selfish, yet are able to express themselves in ways that are not selfish to the *individual*.

Citizen Kate (kate), Monday, 17 November 2003 11:14 (twenty years ago) link

From what I remember Dawkins actually doesn't handle the selfish gene = selfish organism leap very well. So that is a weakness I suppose. The selfish gene as a model I love though. Blind Watchmaker made me realise that I hadn't actually grasped evolution at all before I read it, which makes it a favourite. (Also check out Artificial Life by Steven Levy which rox in a game theory/modelling sort of way.) But RD's anti-religiousness gets on my nerves, because it seems to me that he's won the argument a long, long time ago and now it's got personal. It's like reading Pullman on Narnia - you want to shout if you don't get it then get over it, buddy.
(many xposts)

Sam (chirombo), Monday, 17 November 2003 11:16 (twenty years ago) link

My brother's massive problem with RD is that he thinks RD comes up with analogies and models and then doggedly sticks to the analogies, variously slotting bits of reality into them to make them work.

One thing I think we could probably all agree on is that Dawkins is better than Matt Ridley.

Sam (chirombo), Monday, 17 November 2003 11:22 (twenty years ago) link

Do you think Dwakins is in risk of devaluing his cred as a writer/thinker with all the tv/media work? Is there a seperation between Dakins the celebrity/controversialist and the scientist?

Whenever i see his stupid pointed smug head on tv i want to tear it apart.

Pete S, Monday, 17 November 2003 12:20 (twenty years ago) link

Davkins, Davykins, Dakkins, Dorkins, the posibillities are endless.....

Pete S, Monday, 17 November 2003 12:22 (twenty years ago) link

I believe in God and the mystic mysticalism of the universe and how we're all special, special little flowers and ooh the dolphins and crescent moon isn't it all beautiful.

Richard Dawkins is a nasty man because he says its all a result of mechanical process'.

Jarlr'mai (jarlrmai), Monday, 17 November 2003 13:07 (twenty years ago) link

In answer to the thread title, both.

Jarlr'mai (jarlrmai), Monday, 17 November 2003 13:07 (twenty years ago) link

Even little Richie Dawkins is beloved of God

Pete S, Monday, 17 November 2003 13:22 (twenty years ago) link

God is just a statistic

Sébastien Chikara (Sébastien Chikara), Monday, 17 November 2003 13:54 (twenty years ago) link

"God is a concept by which we measure our pain"
Som Liverpudlian

Pete S, Monday, 17 November 2003 13:56 (twenty years ago) link

he was great on Family Feud.

Chris B. Sure (Chris V), Monday, 17 November 2003 13:57 (twenty years ago) link

;)

Chris B. Sure (Chris V), Monday, 17 November 2003 13:58 (twenty years ago) link

'socialism is impossible because we are all inately selfish'

*explodes with rage*

DAWKINS HAS NEVER SAID THIS. In fact he has repeatedly and vigorously pointed out that this is not the case.

It really bugs me how someone whose most famous book was an attempt to explain altruistic behaviour in animals is regularly accused of promoting selfish behaviour in humans on the basis of the books bloody TITLE. READ THE FUCKING BOOK ALREADY!

Ricardo (RickyT), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:01 (twenty years ago) link

Thank you, RickyT, you said that so much better than I did. Maybe I should have got crosser.

Citizen Kate (kate), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:02 (twenty years ago) link

Yes, rubbish.

Dawkins is left-wing and there's even some OTT sentence about how 'we alone in the animal kingdom have developed the power to overthrow the tyranny of our genes'. He also points out that we do this everytime we use a condom. Or was it have a wank? I can't remember.

N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:05 (twenty years ago) link

I don't think he's an unreserved classic though. Too much dogmatic blethering on about god and the lack thereof marr a lot of his work. Even the otherwise excellent Blind Watchmaker is tainted by his astonishingly weak argument for strong atheism.

Ricardo (RickyT), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:07 (twenty years ago) link

i'm not claiming the interpretation of dawkins is right; i haven't read him; unfortunately, however, that line of argument has been associated with him, rightly or wrongly.

enrique (Enrique), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:07 (twenty years ago) link

'We alone in the animal kingdom.......' Does he posit as to why this might be?

Pete S, Monday, 17 November 2003 14:07 (twenty years ago) link

Culture. His (rather less pop-science) sequel to SG, The Extended Phenotype, goes on at great length about this.

Ricardo (RickyT), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:10 (twenty years ago) link

I'm reading John Gray's Straw Dogs at the moment, which is an attack on this kind of anthrocentricism. He gets Dawkins wrong when it comes to meme theory, though.

N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:11 (twenty years ago) link

I believe that Richard Dawkins has only the best and most helpful intentions for the human race - heis a good man and a strong thinker.
HOWEVER other people, with slightly more blood pumping in their veins can see the IMPLICATIONS of his popularised science. And that's his fault (c.f my question about his 'celebrity').

Pete S, Monday, 17 November 2003 14:12 (twenty years ago) link

Sorry Ricardo, I'm confused. Don't other animals have culture too?

Pete S, Monday, 17 November 2003 14:13 (twenty years ago) link

Dawkins is the inventor of the 'meme' -- the cultural gene. For this alone, classic!

Momus (Momus), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:14 (twenty years ago) link

Classic. I've only read TSG, but I love all the little articles he does with the Edge group. I wish there were more people that advocated skepticism like him. This is the first time I've been the quote about being fascinated and in awe of the little mechanical processes, but it's incredibly OTM.

Dale the Titled (cprek), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:15 (twenty years ago) link

I wish there were more people that advocated skepticism like him

wha? everyone advocates skepticism. it's a friggin skeptical world.

enrique (Enrique), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:19 (twenty years ago) link

I liked his 'the behaviour is most illogical, captain' response to 9/11 too.

Momus (Momus), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:20 (twenty years ago) link

Sort of but his argument was that the richness of human culture dwarfed that of any other known animal. Lots of other animals have extended phenotypes, but not to the same extent. Insert waffling about means of cultural transmission here.

Dawkins did not invent memes, though he did popularise the term.

Ricardo (RickyT), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:21 (twenty years ago) link

Dawkins on 9/11.

Momus (Momus), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:21 (twenty years ago) link

He does look like Spock......

Pete S, Monday, 17 November 2003 14:22 (twenty years ago) link

Ha ha, that Dawkins essay is filtered under category "Traditional Religions". I bet that would make his blood boil!

Citizen Kate (kate), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:23 (twenty years ago) link

momus -- i thought it was incredibly condescending gallery-playing wank; as if guardian readers were a faithless breed < insert qt from 'road to wigan pier'>

enrique (Enrique), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:23 (twenty years ago) link

In repsonse to the accusation that it's his fault that other people draw weird implications from the TITLE OF HIS BOOK, isn't that a bit harsh?

Ricardo (RickyT), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:24 (twenty years ago) link

It was staunchly vulcan gallery-playing wank! Actually, the follow-up article is better, largely because it has such great quotes from Richard Adams and Gore Vidal.

Momus (Momus), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:25 (twenty years ago) link

it's harsh, but life's a hard, godless struggle against arbitrary cruelty.

enrique (Enrique), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:25 (twenty years ago) link

Richard Douglas Adams!

Momus (Momus), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:26 (twenty years ago) link

Oh god, that article is exactly what I was talking about wrt his dudness.

Ricardo (RickyT), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:26 (twenty years ago) link

I'm not sure who said that; but for me it's the content not the titles that disturb.
And yes i do think that disturbing people is a good thing.......

Pete S, Monday, 17 November 2003 14:27 (twenty years ago) link

gore vidal -- now there's a sane and rational authority on matters political.

disturbing people is a good thing -- always?

enrique (Enrique), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:28 (twenty years ago) link

'To label people as death-deserving enemies because of disagreements about real world politics is bad enough. To do the same for disagreements about a delusional world inhabited by archangels, demons and imaginary friends is ludicrously tragic.'

Dawkins OTM!

Momus (Momus), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:29 (twenty years ago) link

haha richard adams wd have been better! he cd have invoked the gods of the rabbits of watership down to back him up!!

mark s (mark s), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:29 (twenty years ago) link

To label people as death-deserving enemies because of disagreements about real world politics is bad enough.

oh right. well, i don't agree that you should bulldoze my house, but hey, i'm a rational being so i'll just have to sit on it.

why are political motivations -- such 'real world' things as nationalism, imperialism -- more rational than so-called delusional stuff (if you think you can separate our politics from the incroyable religious meme-web that is western culture)?

enrique (Enrique), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:32 (twenty years ago) link

Name one historical figure/arist/thinker who hasn't/still does not disturb people. It's necessary for everything. That's why thouugh Dawkins gets on my tits i admire and respect him. And i can maintain a little distance from my own reaction.

Pete S, Monday, 17 November 2003 14:33 (twenty years ago) link

Hang on, so yr problem is with anyone delving into the mysteries of the universe?

Ricardo (RickyT), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:34 (twenty years ago) link

Name one historical figure/arist/thinker who hasn't/still does not disturb people

erm, just bloody loads of them, dude.

enrique (Enrique), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:36 (twenty years ago) link

No what gave you that idea? Just the opposite!

Pete S, Monday, 17 November 2003 14:36 (twenty years ago) link

Enrique - Like?

Pete S, Monday, 17 November 2003 14:37 (twenty years ago) link

Hang on, so yr problem is with anyone delving into the mysteries of the universe?

no, just with the chest-beating idiocy contained in statements such as the one quoted by momus.

enrique (Enrique), Monday, 17 November 2003 14:37 (twenty years ago) link

"Eugenics: it works, bitches" - Richard Dawkins

jmm, Tuesday, 18 February 2020 19:49 (four years ago) link

He probably means ‘works’ in terms of population growth? I’m guessing there’s more cats & dogs than there used to be.

badg, Tuesday, 18 February 2020 19:50 (four years ago) link

He expanded that what he meant was that just as we can breed cows to produce more milk, we could breed humans to run faster - but of course, he deplores the idea of eugenics; he's just stating the facts.

With considerable charm, you still have made a choice (Sund4r), Tuesday, 18 February 2020 19:52 (four years ago) link

i really don't think we need to give him the benefit of having a clue what he's saying

babby bitter (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 18 February 2020 19:52 (four years ago) link

Richard Dawkins is just a racist guy online, the things he says don’t have to mean anything

Swilling Ambergris, Esq. (silby), Tuesday, 18 February 2020 20:05 (four years ago) link

ten months pass...

this fuckin dummy

Dawkins has spent much of his career calling anyone who believes in God or who studies religion a huge dumbass, so pivoting to being an anti-“war on Christmas” guy is.... something. pic.twitter.com/pBcEZH3taQ

— hannah gais (@hannahgais) December 24, 2020

early-Woolf semantic prosody (Hadrian VIII), Thursday, 24 December 2020 03:18 (three years ago) link

His performative atheism has taken second place to his actual racism for years

Uptown Top Scamping (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 24 December 2020 07:44 (three years ago) link

dreaming of a white holiday huh

Wayne Grotski (symsymsym), Thursday, 24 December 2020 08:35 (three years ago) link

Great Thinker.

Fizzles, Thursday, 24 December 2020 08:59 (three years ago) link

believes in the very real objective science of calipers and bell curves

Uptown Top Scamping (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 24 December 2020 09:15 (three years ago) link

for dawk so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son (the word "meme")

mark s, Thursday, 24 December 2020 09:45 (three years ago) link

I would like to approach Richard with the idea of a "Dawkins Reacts" youtube channel, reckon there's a decent amount of grift out there currently up for grabs.

٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶ (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Thursday, 24 December 2020 09:57 (three years ago) link

I guess it's irrational anger about something innocuous and I would never write an asinine tweet about it... but i loathe "happy holidays".

ledge, Thursday, 24 December 2020 10:16 (three years ago) link

it comes from a place of acknowledging that significant numbers of your population have a non-Christian faith tho

Uptown Top Scamping (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 24 December 2020 10:24 (three years ago) link

happy holidays ledge

Left, Thursday, 24 December 2020 10:49 (three years ago) link

dick dork has always been a white supremacist first

Left, Thursday, 24 December 2020 10:51 (three years ago) link

yeah i sometimes feel inappropriate saying happy xmas but I can't bear the americanism, sorry to be racist against americans.

ledge, Thursday, 24 December 2020 11:04 (three years ago) link

it doesn't work in a UK context because "holidays" means something different here.

٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶ (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Thursday, 24 December 2020 12:31 (three years ago) link

don't know if Dawkins has taken any time to consider this, probably not but who knows what's going on in there

٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶ (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Thursday, 24 December 2020 12:32 (three years ago) link

i agree it sounds awkward in uk usage sometimes but nobody most people sorry ledge lol complaining about it in public aren't complaining about the sounding awkward bit

Uptown Top Scamping (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 24 December 2020 12:36 (three years ago) link

happy holidays as praxis against anti-PC sentiment and anti-"americanism" language policing

Left, Thursday, 24 December 2020 12:38 (three years ago) link

I cannot think of any issue that matters less, especially this year, so bringing it up is obviously tied to an agenda

٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶ (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Thursday, 24 December 2020 12:43 (three years ago) link

tbh i’m not sure dawkins has much of an agenda any more i think he’s just an old bellend.

Fizzles, Thursday, 24 December 2020 12:54 (three years ago) link

What's this clown said now?

Eggbreak Hotel (Tom D.), Thursday, 24 December 2020 12:54 (three years ago) link

it doesn't work in a UK context because "holidays" means something different here.

To be fair, they only get like two days off a year over there.

Eggbreak Hotel (Tom D.), Thursday, 24 December 2020 12:56 (three years ago) link

dawkins has always had a racist eugenicist agenda, he just doesn't bother to temper it with liberal progressive pandering as much as he did for a while since everyone knows what he's about now

Left, Thursday, 24 December 2020 13:05 (three years ago) link

three months pass...
two years pass...

can't believe his atheism is just coded white supremacy

Bitchin Doutai (Noodle Vague), Monday, 1 April 2024 08:40 (one month ago) link

Shocked I tells ya..

xyzzzz__, Monday, 1 April 2024 10:18 (one month ago) link


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