The Village Voice thinks you're stupid

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http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0318/harvell.php

jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 7 August 2003 03:23 (twenty years ago) link

again, on some levels, i'm with frank: more space = more possible sales. but i've never been 100% certain about what the use of a 125-250 word review is anyway. (i mean, yeah, it pays the bills and feeds the cats, but does it nourish the soul, either the writer or readers, etc etc etc.) it's kind of pathetic that i feel all corny for trying to put a. myself and b. real, actual content into a 250 word review when everywhere else i look is telling me just to hack it out and do the bare minimum since there are so many other scraps of media space that need filling since we've chopped them up so much to fit our fabulous on the go lifestyles.

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 7 August 2003 03:27 (twenty years ago) link

a 125-250 word review: $15 to $150

kogan's contortions review: priceless.

and so on.

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 7 August 2003 03:29 (twenty years ago) link

having to always write 350 words and never ever any more on any given film is frustrating

s1utsky (slutsky), Thursday, 7 August 2003 03:30 (twenty years ago) link

and I do appreciate the form of the capsule movie review (which is more like 80-125), but still

s1utsky (slutsky), Thursday, 7 August 2003 03:31 (twenty years ago) link

see, that's the other thing: having to write within the constraints of the short review - after years of being able to write whatever and however long i wanted online - has improved my work immensely, i think.

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 7 August 2003 03:32 (twenty years ago) link

totally! I've nothing against brevity but I've never really written that type of thing without a word count (or a word count of 550 or more, really).

s1utsky (slutsky), Thursday, 7 August 2003 03:34 (twenty years ago) link

Agreed, brevity is a most handy skill on many levels, and I'm still learning how best to use it.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 7 August 2003 03:41 (twenty years ago) link

I'm with Chris P. and the most recent posters on this. I'm sure if someone writes 1 billion words that are all mind-bogglingly good, the story will see publication. But most long-format reviews in the Voice and pretty much anywhere else drone on and on with little to say. Hopefully other alternative papers around the nation will take the Voice's cue and learn how to edit.

Phantroll, Thursday, 7 August 2003 03:45 (twenty years ago) link

deja vu, harvell

(i wrote an equally long screed elsewhere, but it never showed up)

Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 7 August 2003 03:46 (twenty years ago) link

Oops, my link was bad, and I was trying to be sly. I was referring to Pitchfork.

Phantroll, Thursday, 7 August 2003 03:47 (twenty years ago) link

I don't think anyone claiming to be anti-editing or anti-efficient-writing.

s1utsky (slutsky), Thursday, 7 August 2003 03:50 (twenty years ago) link

yeah, i think it's more the enforced shrinkage that's the problem, not the brevity is...wit mindset.

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 7 August 2003 03:53 (twenty years ago) link

living in New York makes me feel stupid. And poor. And I feel like I don't have all the cool stuff I need. And poor. When I want to feel better i skip the VOICE. and surf over to http://the morning news.com then I feel better...

kelly denison-cole (dustjacket), Thursday, 7 August 2003 04:33 (twenty years ago) link

oops
http://the morning news.com

kelly denison-cole (dustjacket), Thursday, 7 August 2003 04:34 (twenty years ago) link

ok ill try it this way
http://themorningnews.com

kelly denison-cole (dustjacket), Thursday, 7 August 2003 04:35 (twenty years ago) link

alright this time i got it right. i still feel stupid but im going to;
http://themorningnews.org
thats what im talkin about

kelly denison-cole (dustjacket), Thursday, 7 August 2003 04:38 (twenty years ago) link

Yeah, perhaps cutting back on length might be a good thing ... longest crit piece I've written professionally was 1,400 words or so, and it felt pretty indulgent. The couple 900-worders I've written for Chuck at the Voice felt great because at that length, it forced me to get to the fucking point and turn the crux of my argument on a dime, making for swifter pieces that covered more ground with a lot less "post-rock in the age of the desconstructionist behemoths blah blah blah" bullshit. In Phoenix, wehere I work, I rarely assign reviews above 300 words ... that's the toughest length but also the most satisfying when my writers get it right.

On another note, I'm sad to see that paycuts for the Giddins and the Xgaus is even on the table. Shows, to me anyway, how impossible this goddamn Dubya economy is right now ... art, talent and the advancement of culture don't mean shit when only a few people get all the perks and there's no incentive for the powers-that-be to give a shit about the contributions of their workers. Keep fighting the good fight, VV folks. Hi Chuck and Chris P.!

Chris O'Connor, Thursday, 7 August 2003 06:45 (twenty years ago) link

Sadly enough, aren't business marketing folks at media publications everywhere suggesting that short and abbreviated copy is the only way to reach the so-called 18 to 35 demographic. The Washington Post is now handing out a short little Mon thru Friday freebie called the Express at downtown DC subway stations and near college campusses. The alt-weekly Washington City Paper did a parody issue called the Expresso the first day and handed it out as well...

Frank, People have to buy Time Out NY right, while the Voice is free and available online? Will these changes bring in more Time Out NY readers or advertisers???

Steve Kiviat (Steve K), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:36 (twenty years ago) link

Steve, what you're describing to me sounds like the Metro, which is this thing that the Londoners can tell you about -- it's a freebie version of one of the tabloids over there, I forget which, and I only ever saw it on the Tube.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:41 (twenty years ago) link

the metro is pretty good for a freebie though. cuts out so much of the crap that inhabits regular papers. and its arts/music review section is pretty good really

Bob Shaw (Bob Shaw), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:45 (twenty years ago) link

Some(many?) American alt-weeklies still have writers go long, but none of those weeklies have the national exposure and reputation of the Voice. The Washington City Paper doesn't put its arts features online because they want people to pick up the weekly and theoretically read the ads...

To bring Simon Reynolds into this(Oh No! not again!) I see he's been raving on his blog about all the blogs he reads, and how he doesn't have time to read music features in newspapers and magazines (even if he could find music magazines he'd like)...

Steve Kiviat (Steve K), Thursday, 7 August 2003 15:40 (twenty years ago) link

This thread (and I admit, I haven't read all of it - far too many words!) seems to use review/criticism pretty much interchangeably. Surely, a review is just descriptive, often a buyer's guide, that tells you what something sounds like. Criticism should make you listen to something with new ears, even if you've already heard it a million times. Falling word-counts mean criticism disappearing and in the UK this has been a commercial disaster (all the music papers shutting) as well as an 'artistic/intellectual/whatever' one. I hear the Observer are going to start a Music Monthly (to go with their Sport and Food ones) though, which might be interesting. Other than that it's 'The Wire' or the blogs. (Write for free, Frank!)
ps I went to college with the Nina Caplan, who writes the film reviews for Metro, which for a Daily Mail owned free rag, are excellent, if short.

Jamie Smith, Thursday, 7 August 2003 15:55 (twenty years ago) link

(TS: Metro vs The Village Voice).

David. (Cozen), Thursday, 7 August 2003 16:19 (twenty years ago) link

writing for free has distinctly lost it's tang since i started writing for peanuts.

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 7 August 2003 16:33 (twenty years ago) link

With Frank Kogan, more is more, and truncating me is never a good idea.

Jaw
.
.
.
.
.
.
drops.

mei (mei), Thursday, 7 August 2003 18:32 (twenty years ago) link

what about writing for 'tang strongo?

Bob Shaw (Bob Shaw), Thursday, 7 August 2003 18:34 (twenty years ago) link

I don't see the logic in "Most long pieces aren't good, therefore there shouldn't be long pieces." Most short pieces aren't good either. Most pieces aren't good. Solution: Write better pieces. (But do readers want good pieces?)

The point is: Different subjects need different treatment; different writers work better using different forms; different people have different skills. If an entire profession shifts to a single format and a single writing style, then most subjects won't get treated, or they'll get treated badly; most writers won't get used, or they'll get used badly.

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 7 August 2003 19:43 (twenty years ago) link

Yeah, but thanks to the net people can pretty much do what ever they want formatwise. You might not get paid for it, but being paid to write about pop music is a privilege, not a right (plus I'll probably become a librarian eventually anyway so forgive me if I feel a bit solipsistic about it).

I think most albums only deserve about 250 (if that, if anything I want to see more GOOD pithy three sentence reviews - I like jokes - than GOOD epic reviews - you're either gonna sell me on this album in 1000 words or you're not gonna sell me on it) words anyway, and at least this year I'm a big fan of brevity. So while it's sad that a good mag is creating more rules about what it's capable of, I can't really get too hung up about this. If you're not satisfied with saying only A THOUSAND WORDS about an album, write a book about them on the web! That's first place anybody looking for a million words about your fave cult artist is gonna go.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 7 August 2003 19:58 (twenty years ago) link

No one said they had a "right" to anything, Anthony.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:02 (twenty years ago) link

miccio in quoting every anti-labor argument ever shocker

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:03 (twenty years ago) link

Please read ARTHUR. And contribute if you like. Our reviewers (Byron Coley & Thurston Moore, Paul Cullum, etc.) get to write as much as they want, on whatever they want. We started this mag a year ago EXACTLY because of this kind of stuff that the Voice is doing now...

If you don't know what I'm yammering about --

http://www.arthurmag.com


Jay Babcock, Editor

Jay Babcock, Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:06 (twenty years ago) link

And if you don't like that, Blount, go to RUSSIA! (or ARTHUR, see?)

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:08 (twenty years ago) link

TS: Death Rock 2000, The Disco Tex Essay vs 3 sentence pithy review.

David. (Cozen), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:11 (twenty years ago) link

People do have mutually-understood expectations, which if undermined cavalierly and often enough by management occasionally demand to become rights under law. But we're not at that point yet here, we're just talking about what's going to make a better mag?

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:12 (twenty years ago) link

obviously, the point is not the length of a piece of writing but the ideas it contains. I mean, how basic is this? Too many damn stylists, not enough thinkers. You bet your sweet ass I'm looking forward to Matos' book about Sign of the Times a gazillion times more than I am the next 250 word review about whatever album by whatever crappy writer.

Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:12 (twenty years ago) link

but none of the people who are gonna get hit by village voice dumbdown jamboree 2003 (xgau, giddins, hoberman, kogan) are 'too much stylists, not enough thinkers', plus even genuine stylists (meltzer)(sinker's somewhere in both groups) work better in marathons than sprints (vinyl reckoning vs. rhymes with seltzer)

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:16 (twenty years ago) link

And if a writer isn't worth reading at 1,500 words, he's probably not worth reading at 300.

As I recall, Einstein's Theory of Relativity was more than 300 words. So was Austen's Pride and Prejudice. If writers are essentially forbidden to publish their ideas, then their ideas will never get any good, no one will have the opportunity to see or respond to anyone else's ideas, or to elaborate on them, the readers will never get confronted with new ideas, thought will wither.

Right, Anthony: Pasteur didn't have the right to do immunology, either; Wittgenstein didn't have the right to teach philosophy. But if they'd been prevented from doing so, the world would have lost something. And if people like me don't get paid to do what we do best, then it's not going to get done, blogs or no blogs, ILX or no ILX.

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:17 (twenty years ago) link

Kogan is a total stylist.

Frank, TS: Visions of Johanna vs Tarantula vs "if a writer isn't worth reading at 1,500 words, he's probably not worth reading at 300."

David. (Cozen), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:19 (twenty years ago) link

(Sorry, I'm having trouble formulating responses in forms other than TSs).

David. (Cozen), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:20 (twenty years ago) link

Actually, one of my best reviews ever (of "What Becomes of the Broken-Hearted?") was six words long.

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:21 (twenty years ago) link

how long were the liner notes to world gone wrong?

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:21 (twenty years ago) link

I can think of maybe two writers (maaaaybe) who work better in the blogosphere than they do via an editor, an impersonal readership, a paycheck.

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:24 (twenty years ago) link

Why not do a 'word strike'? Everybody turning in insanely long submissions. Even the food critics including recipes of everything on the menu, whatever it takes.

dave q, Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:24 (twenty years ago) link

Actually, the question is this: Taking Sides, world with Shakespeare's sonnets and King Lear vs. world with only the sonnets.

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:25 (twenty years ago) link

dave: chuck is going to kill you

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:25 (twenty years ago) link

you'll find I have a different stance laborwise re: rock critics than I do with say, school teachers.

The only critics who comes to mind whose work I really, really enjoy in lengthy form are Pauline Kael and Robert Christgau. But Xgau's usually good with whatever space you give him (and when he's off, he can be bad with whatever space you give him). And Kael was, wowsers, PROFITABLE enough for her mag (she DREW young people to the New Yorker) that they gave her a lot of freedom. And xgau's got a webpage and has shown a willingness to embellish in hindsight (see "Grown Up All Wrong"), so he can certainly slap those extra paragraphs on elsewhere.

I love this assumption that shorter equals dumber. And since I thought Kogan's recent E6 reviews was kinda wack after the first two paragraphs and since I'm not sold on this idea that Meltzer needs to run free (I'm not a fan of people who self-nullify in the face of constraint, unless they do it entertainingly like Marlon Brando does. Meltzer doesn't), I simply do not share it.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:27 (twenty years ago) link

Wittgenstein/Einstein/Shakespeare parallels are stretching it just a tad...

I think this only really hurts the music section. For pretty much every other kind of criticism or feature writing, there are other venues where you can go long.

Also, I wouldn't really call the Voice one of the few publications that thinks gaining your interest means ruffling your feathers. I'm glad it's around to do what it does, but it's preaching to the choir.

alias, Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:30 (twenty years ago) link

Frank Kogan is the Louis Pasteur of critics.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:33 (twenty years ago) link

I think long-form music criticism is more interesting to read, perhaps because it is relatively rare, and consequently hasn't become so calcified by convention. In short reviews, it's too easy for a writer to toss out a few gonzo metaphors and a couple of trendy band references and be done with it. It's rare to find a short blurb these days that does anything interesting with the form (perhaps some of Christgau's Consumer Guide pieces qualify). On the other hand, there is a glut of rote exercises in blurbage in just about every music publication in existence. A longer format forces writers to have a point beyond "This is good" or "This sucks". It also allows for different types of pieces beyond the basic review - for example, someone could write a history of a genre, or a comparison of different styles, or of different groups - it's hard to do this in a space-constrained format.

o. nate (onate), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:34 (twenty years ago) link

With Frank Kogan, more is more, and truncating me is never a good idea.
Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Wednesday, 6 August 2003

the pinefox, Saturday, 3 January 2009 21:41 (fifteen years ago) link

one year passes...

so this is basically a porn site now?

goole, Saturday, 27 February 2010 16:43 (fourteen years ago) link

i pretty much fritter away 10 minutes of every day clicking on a NSFW photo gallery on the Voice site, i'm not gonna lie

zsockster (Whiney G. Weingarten), Saturday, 27 February 2010 16:48 (fourteen years ago) link

i have no idea where these parties happen or who gets invited to them

zsockster (Whiney G. Weingarten), Saturday, 27 February 2010 16:48 (fourteen years ago) link

not a huge fan of the new page layout

ksh, Saturday, 27 February 2010 16:49 (fourteen years ago) link

i havent been by the site in a while but it looks like theyve got like 2-3 good writers left and a whole lot of fifty-photo slideshows of parties where chicks flash the camera?

max, Saturday, 27 February 2010 17:41 (fourteen years ago) link

so i guess its kind of like vice magazine now?

max, Saturday, 27 February 2010 17:41 (fourteen years ago) link

hey, village voice, you're right.. i am stupid !

tramp steamer, Sunday, 28 February 2010 04:20 (fourteen years ago) link

The Village Voice thinks you like tits, is probably right

dora the explaro (some dude), Sunday, 28 February 2010 06:44 (fourteen years ago) link

one year passes...

So, I guess this is official now. (Fwiw, I've secretly known about Rob leaving for a couple weeks, but didn't know Maura was coming in until three minutes ago.)

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2011/03/please_welcome_10.php

xhuxk, Monday, 14 March 2011 20:02 (thirteen years ago) link

you got scooped on another voice thread 47 minutes ago chuck!

scott seward, Monday, 14 March 2011 20:09 (thirteen years ago) link

okay not scooped.

anyhoo, congrats maura!

scott seward, Monday, 14 March 2011 20:09 (thirteen years ago) link

if congrats are in order. they are, right? probably!

scott seward, Monday, 14 March 2011 20:10 (thirteen years ago) link

four years pass...

ok this article being published on a VV site, given what they've done to freelancers is pretty. fucking. rich.

http://www.citypages.com/music/can-professional-concert-photography-survive-7446275

kurt kobaïan (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 2 July 2015 14:11 (eight years ago) link

(or whatever they call the VV/new times whatever clusterfuck now)

kurt kobaïan (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 2 July 2015 14:11 (eight years ago) link

Yep. As for one little aspect of the article, the below is kinda the same issue in my town. Punk and indie rock shows get documented on local media, but go-go, r'n'b, jazz, and myriad international styles exist only in instagram land among friends.

There are so many shows going on in this town where nobody is shooting.

curmudgeon, Thursday, 2 July 2015 16:03 (eight years ago) link

city pages got sold in may
http://www.startribune.com/star-tribune-buys-city-pages/302763201/

maura, Thursday, 2 July 2015 17:28 (eight years ago) link

Oh yeah well I hope they've stopped stealing local band photos of ppl flickr accounts and running then w/o paying or giving credit

kurt kobaïan (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 2 July 2015 17:40 (eight years ago) link

nine months pass...

Hilary Hughes who was their 2015 music editor is no longer listed on the masthead. Now they just list a "culture editor"

curmudgeon, Tuesday, 5 April 2016 13:16 (eight years ago) link

i remember her announcing on twitter that she was leaving VV maybe...a month ago? i didn't see anything about looking for or announcing a new music ed, wouldn't be surprised if that position was being eliminated.

"Robots are sexy as shit" - Big Sean (some dude), Tuesday, 5 April 2016 14:04 (eight years ago) link

ah, fuck
i liked Hilary.

ulysses, Tuesday, 5 April 2016 17:49 (eight years ago) link

x-post - yep now I see it. She tweeted Feb. 17th that it was her last day at the Voice.

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 6 April 2016 16:18 (eight years ago) link

one month passes...
one year passes...

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