Keith Moon vs. John Bonham POLL

Moon

Moon gets props for playing way outside the norms of his era, but Bonzo would be a great drummer in any era.

bonzo lays down the tastiest grooves known to man. what a feel this guy had. the way he rides the beat is insane.

wait, are we voting based on drumming skills?

i would say it's about personal preference, whether you think one is more skilled or not, etc.

well i don't know shit about either so i'm voting for moon because bonham seemed like an angry drunk

Bonham had one of the best producers anywhere recording him. Moon was in a band made up of three lead instruments. Moon had "Cobwebs And Strange" Bonham had a drag racer in "Moby Dick"

The winner is all of us.

Then there's the time Keith joined Led Zeppelin on stage in 1977

Moon's drumming is never as tight as Bonham's...

That's the essence of it. KM never really knew where the hell he was at, and not by intention. A rock-n-roll drummer needs to define the beat at every available tick, not play above a groove maintained by musicians whose timing might possibly be better than his. Rock-n-rollers' timings suck. You, the drummer, are to make that fact as non-obvious as possible.

To wit, Bonham's achilles heel is Black Dog. Kinda surprised that nobody's mentioned it, but if you listen really close to the recording on IV, you can hear how truly lousy Page's timing gets when he's off the hook. Kinda obvious to me at least that Bonham tried a bunch of things with that crazy ass riff before realizing that he couldn't get JP's time to latch and so he just gave up and decided to nail down the fundies while listening to JP rather than making JP listen to him. This is what a great drummer does when placed in a bad groove, but it's still an obvious white flag.

bulllllllshit. if Moon didn't know where he was when he sounded like he didn't, half of the Who's performances would've fallen apart mid-song. there was a lot of control and purpose within the chaotic aesthetic of his playing.

Page's timing on "Black Dog" always sets me on edge slightly, though, yeah.

Kinda surprised that nobody's mentioned it, but if you listen really close to the recording on IV, you can hear how truly lousy Page's timing gets when he's off the hook. Kinda obvious to me at least that Bonham tried a bunch of things with that crazy ass riff before realizing that he couldn't get JP's time to latch and so he just gave up and decided to nail down the fundies while listening to JP rather than making JP listen to him.

According to the chapter on "Black Dog" in the 33 1/3 book, it's actually Jones who came up with the riff and arranged everything. Apparently the original arrangement was even more complex - causing Page to struggle and Bonham to dig in his heels and plow through in 4/4. There's a bootleg of the early version that has Bonham trying to play more in time with the riff.

OK, the wikipedia article gets into it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Dog_(song)

I'm not saying that KM was bad, but he sure as hell wasn't a force in keeping Who shows from falling apart. He was a good drummer, but he had no characteristics of greatness. (xp)

Whether or not JPJ or JP came up with the riff, it was clearly beyond JP's rhythmic capabilities.

Such a great question b/c it's hard to imagine two rock drummers more different. Each was perfect for his band.

"he had no characteristics of greatness" is like some weird shit you hear cable pundits say during presidential elections

Seems to me that Bonham was always just a tad behind the beat, whereas Moon was similarly ahead of it.

Other than that, I really don't want to choose, other than to observe that (a) unlike Moon, Bonham's skills never waned as he approached an alcohol-related death, and (b} it wasn't until Tommy that Moon was finally recorded properly.

Love 'em both, obviously.

Moon is my favorite drummer. I love how he plays and have listened to Who records just to focus on him many times over many years.

Many times I listen to Led Zeppelin, and don't really think about the drumming at all.

The Who have nearly always been my favorite band though, so any thought of what is the best way to go about it starts with them.

these guys are so different and both geniuses, voting between them is pointless. the key with keith is that he played drums like a lead instrument; there's nothing wrong with his timekeeping, but timekeeping or groove-making is not what he did. he added colors and textures and emotional angles to the music in a way that other lead instruments (guitar, saxophone, piano, etc) usually do. in a way it makes moon more like a virtuoso jazz drummer than your average rock virtuso (even though his playing itself was totally rock, not jazz). bonham didn't play lead instrument, he established the grooves. MONSTER grooves. he's the heaviest funky drummer or the funkiest heavy drummer ever. like if james brown was paul bunyan.

love 'em both.

Seems to me that Bonham was always just a tad behind the beat, whereas Moon was similarly ahead of it.

^^^ dude doesn't know what "behind" the beat means.

i would sneak the stuttered hat-kick-kick triplet fills from the "Good Times Bad Times" verse into one of my band's songs when we played it live.

x_ _ x _ _ x _ _ X

shit is like walking on air when you pull it off.

keith moon, in my humble opinion, is the greatest rock musician of all-time.

interesting responses to this thread

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/205/465049102_c141816983.jpg

moon:bonham::townsend:page

moon>bonham, by a whisker of personal preference

tipsy mothra OTM there, comparing these two is really pointless since they're so different. they could basically play in the same band at once. that said, polls are polls and I probably lean more towards Bonham, not because I feel a drummer necessarily should be the groove setter, just because he's better

I think that a lot of the criticism about Moon not being a good timekeeper is erroneously based on songs where Entwhistle or (much more usually) Townshend are maintaining the beat. The Who were a band where this rotating of roles between the three musicians was a regular thing. LZ were far more conventional in that respect.

It's a bit like criticising Mitch Mitchell for not holding down the rhythm in the Jimi Hendrix Experience. Because it wasn't really his job either, it was Noel Redding's.

I would say that it's neither bassist nor drummer's "job" to hold down the rhythm - it's a collaborative effort, hence "rhythm section" - a good one is a team in a real sense, maybe separate players in theory but less so in practice

I vote Bonham here but my as observed above a lot of how one responds is probably at least partially related to very different techniques used in recording. Moon is often recorded for snap - Eddie Kramer and/or whatever assistant was helping set up the mics on Bonham's drum is to my mind completely visionary, there's this love of sound. pair that with the how-to-deal-with-the-rest-of-the-band phenomenon (i.e., that Bonham is approaching the job as if it were the drummer's responsibility to knit everything together) and you get these performances that have so much character, so much narrative to them. I do get that from Moon too sometimes but not all the time like with Bonham.

(add ital to "were" in "as if it were" to point out - I don't think JPJ/Bonham is able to function as an ideal rhythm section owing to Page's timing, which causes Bonham to have to try to lead, which contributes to how special and different Zep sound)

John Bonham:Picasso::Keith Moon:Matisse

drum machine:Warhol

JPJ vs. entwhistle

^^^ dude doesn't know what "behind" the beat means.

― ＴＥＥＮＡＧＥ ＤＩＡＬＥＣＴＩＣＳ (libcrypt), Monday, 15 December 2008 05:48 (8 hours ago) Permalink

really? bonham definitely plays on the back side of the beat to my ears, it's part of what makes him sound so heavy

Moon, but I have no expertise that qualifies to make such an opinion.

bonzo's pulse is so lazy. also his right foot is his best body part.

true. he had a good beard too.

I would say that it's neither bassist nor drummer's "job" to hold down the rhythm - it's a collaborative effort, hence "rhythm section" - a good one is a team in a real sense, maybe separate players in theory but less so in practice

It's less of a collaborative effort in rock music, simply because rock musicians' inner timing clocks are usually crap, a situation not ameliorated by the addition of booze, weed, or whatever fuel that's often in play. Any member of a half-decent jazz combo (perhaps including ghost members) can unwind the clock all on his lonesome, allowing the drummer the freedom to skitter wildly over the topmost surface of the music at will. Even when he's keeping time, a jazz drummer will glue the clock to the ceiling so that his depthful instruments may dangle below like a cheap wind chime.

Rock drummers usually don't have that luxury. They've gotta own the beat, 'cause the rest of the band is gonna drive the song offa cliff without someone controlling the wheel. Granted, a bass player syncopating downhill at 120 dB/h is gonna have a hard time hearing a drummer tinkling on the cymbals, but you can't complain about the lousy deal when you know the cards are stacked going in.

I'm not saying that Entwistle wasn't playing above his weight class -- he surely was a great bassist -- nor that KM didn't put his checks down in all the open boxes. The Who wasn't a jazz combo, tho, and there's just nothing that interesting about playing on top of the beat in a standard rock-n-roll band, at least to my ears. (xp)

a jazz drummer will glue the clock to the ceiling so that his depthful instruments may dangle below like a cheap wind chime.

wow

really? bonham definitely plays on the back side of the beat to my ears, it's part of what makes him sound so heavy

When the song needed it, yes. But as a general rule, Bonham unwound the clock. (xp)

what does that mean?

It means that a jazz drummer uses the cymbals (the ceiling) for strict time, while he allows his other tools much more freedom.

I'm not talking about Han Bennink here, of course.

i mean "unwound the clock"

lol at black dog wiki: The dog has nothing to do with the song lyrics, which are about desperate desire for a woman's love and the happiness resulting thereby.

If you unwind the clock, then you define the ticks. There is no "before" or "after" the beat if you are the beat.

making up words won't help you

lol at black dog wiki: The dog has nothing to do with the song lyrics,

wait on the 2

It became our way of life

The Jerk was a delayed backbeat thing

weirdly, there's an article in the New Yorker this week that discusses this very issue.

bonham's possibly the better drummer. keith's infinitely more fun, more joyous a drummer.

Joe Carducci comments on the James Wood New Yorker article:

He writes, “Sitting behind the drums was like the fantasy of driving (the other great prepubescent ambition)…”, and on Moon drumming: “He seems to be reaching for everything at once.” Wood contrasts Moon to John Bonham profitably (to Glenn Gould less so) but then noting their deaths two years apart, ends, “And then English drumming went quiet.”

Your editor ought to have told you that was a subject worth six pages of the New Yorker: as in, What happened? A good ten years where the UK produces drummers like Ringo Starr, Charlie Watts, Mick Avory, Jack Jones, Ginger Baker, Mitch Mitchell, Moon, Bonham, Bill Ward, Robert Wyatt, Greg Palmer, Bill Bruford, Clive Bunker, John Marshall, Phil Collins, John Weathers, BJ Wilson, Cozy Powell, Ian Paice, Mick Fleetwood, Barrie Barlow, Simon King, dozens more at least… until glitter and punk and media itself turned on music in the hot-house Pop machine that is London.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGe19nbMhaY

Joe Carducci comments on the James Wood New Yorker article:

the band was increasingly tamed by the requirements of AOR programmers

"Hey guys, look, our listeners are really demanding more Terry Riley-esque minimalism...honestly, I don't think we can get you on the radio without it."

Bonham's drumming was technically better. Moon just did his thing, and it somewhat worked in spite of lack of actual formal drumming skills. When it comes to the myth about the typical drummer personality, Moon will always be the king though, and he also played in the better band of the two.

Take something like "Going Mobile", Moon is going so batshit crazy on the fills on the last part of that song, I just don't see how ANY other drummer could have made it work like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyOibvBoJKM

Moon sounds like three drummers going full anarchy.

Jeff Beck on hanging out with Keith Moon

Also, how did I not notice that Moon rarely uses a hi hat. Ever.

http://www.modculture.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/moon.jpg

Lucked out and found this book used for just a couple bucks. Looks pretty fun! Written by Moon's personal assistant?

hah amazon

0 of 2 people found the following review helpful
1.0 out of 5 stars Moon Age Nightmare, March 21, 2013
By
NoName (Staten Island, NY United States) - See all my reviews
Verified Purchase(What's this?)
This review is from: Full Moon: The Amazing Rock and Roll Life of the Late Keith Moon (Paperback)
I can't stand books about drunken parties and destroying hotels (how cliche), this book skips Moons great contribution to rock drumming and gets lost in all the Moon antics, skip it unless you want to journey down a drunken path to nowhere.

Why are you reading this book? Do you see the cover?

Ugh, that book is horrendous. Tony Fletcher's bio is indispensable, but even he doesn't really get to the essence of what made Moon great.

Also, how did I not notice that Moon rarely uses a hi hat. Ever.

― Elvis Telecom, Monday, June 9, 2014 10:51 PM (7 months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

He used a hi-hat until mid-1966 or so, when he got his first double-bass-drum kit (immediately after watching Sam Woodyard in Duke Ellington's orchestra). From 1966 to 1973 he never used a hi-hat on stage, though he always had a hi-hat on his studio kit.

For the most part, his hi-hat was locked-closed (or half-closed) on studio dates. But sometimes, as on "Won't Get Fooled Again," you can hear him switch up his left foot from bass drum to hi-hat, like at 2:33 here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnVjpymrbIY

Starting in 1973, he added a locked-closed hi-hat to his live setup.

Bonham is the drummer I'd 10x rather listen to isolation tracks of

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8cSe7RvqSM

and I don't even like that song

awesome post from tarfumes, very illuminating

^^^^ on that.

Thanks! Listening to that isolated WGFA is such a wonderful mindfuck.

"Fool in the Rain" track sounds amazing, and Bonham's sound is unmatched. Glyn Johns points out in his new book that Bonham was meticulous about tuning (and Moon rather less so). But it really reinforces that Bonham and Moon were such utterly different animals as to make comparisons pointless. I'd venture to say that they might as well be playing different instruments.

But if we do compare them as drummers, to paraphrase Andre Previn's famous quote about Stan Kenton and Duke Ellington, John Bonham can lay down a monster groove, and every drummer will nod and say, "Oh, yes, that’s done like this." But Keith Moon skitters over a couple of toms, the band suddenly lifts into the air, and I don't know what it is.

love threads like this one. i'm not a drummer and know so little about this very essential element of so much music i love. good reading, thanks y'all.

also those isolated drum tracks O_O

bonham would never be able to pull off the drum break in “my generation “

fuuuck those isolated bonham tracks rock!

do we have a thread for isolated tracks? we should! there were some really cool isolated malcolm young tracks on the ADCD thread recently

i got Keith's "Two Sides of the Moon" LP last year and really love it. it's messy and silly but you can tell there's a lot of love. it has a pretty star-studded lineup:

Rather than using the album as a chance to showcase his drumming skill, Keith Moon sang lead vocals on all tracks, and played drums only on three of the tracks ("Crazy Like A Fox", "The Kids Are Alright" and "Move Over Ms. L"), although he played percussion on "Don't Worry Baby". The album features contributions from Ringo Starr, Harry Nilsson, Joe Walsh of the Eagles, Jim Keltner, Bobby Keys, Klaus Voorman, John Sebastian, Flo & Eddie (Mark Volman and Howard Kaylan of The Turtles), Spencer Davis, Dick Dale, Suzi Quatro's sister Patti Quatro and future actor Miguel Ferrer. Originally recorded for his own album, but not released on it, John Lennon gave Moon the track "Move Over Ms. L" and later did his own version.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Sides_of_the_Moon#Content

highlights include Beach Boys cover "Be My Baby" with drumming by none other than Miguel Ferrer, a really nice and touching strings-based take on "In My Life" and the 50s-rock-via-70s-excess Ricky Nelson cover "Teenage Idol"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAVLggoEa8o

er... that's "Don't Worry Baby". heh i always get those titles confused...