really? bonham definitely plays on the back side of the beat to my ears, it's part of what makes him sound so heavy
When the song needed it, yes. But as a general rule, Bonham unwound the clock. (xp)
― TEENAGE DIALECTICS (libcrypt), Monday, 15 December 2008 15:55 (fifteen years ago) link
what does that mean?
― Tracy Michael Jordan Catalano (Jordan), Monday, 15 December 2008 15:57 (fifteen years ago) link
It means that a jazz drummer uses the cymbals (the ceiling) for strict time, while he allows his other tools much more freedom.
― TEENAGE DIALECTICS (libcrypt), Monday, 15 December 2008 15:58 (fifteen years ago) link
I'm not talking about Han Bennink here, of course.
― TEENAGE DIALECTICS (libcrypt), Monday, 15 December 2008 16:00 (fifteen years ago) link
i mean "unwound the clock"
― Tracy Michael Jordan Catalano (Jordan), Monday, 15 December 2008 16:00 (fifteen years ago) link
lol at black dog wiki: The dog has nothing to do with the song lyrics, which are about desperate desire for a woman's love and the happiness resulting thereby.
― Manchego Bay (G00blar), Monday, 15 December 2008 16:01 (fifteen years ago) link
If you unwind the clock, then you define the ticks. There is no "before" or "after" the beat if you are the beat.
― TEENAGE DIALECTICS (libcrypt), Monday, 15 December 2008 16:04 (fifteen years ago) link
making up words won't help you
― Tracy Michael Jordan Catalano (Jordan), Monday, 15 December 2008 16:04 (fifteen years ago) link
lol at black dog wiki: The dog has nothing to do with the song lyrics,
― Ruudside Picnic (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 15 December 2008 16:05 (fifteen years ago) link
wait on the 2
― Ruudside Picnic (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 15 December 2008 16:19 (fifteen years ago) link
It became our way of life
― Ruudside Picnic (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 15 December 2008 16:27 (fifteen years ago) link
The Jerk was a delayed backbeat thing
― Ruudside Picnic (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 15 December 2008 16:29 (fifteen years ago) link
There's hella lot of jazz elitism all of a sudden in this thread.
― redmond, Monday, 15 December 2008 17:17 (fifteen years ago) link
John Bonham: Mary Richards Keith Moon: Rhoda Morganstern
― Dr. Joseph A. Ofalt, Monday, 15 December 2008 18:04 (fifteen years ago) link
Bonham: LatkaMoon: Rev. Jim
― WmC, Monday, 15 December 2008 18:08 (fifteen years ago) link
Long time lurker, first-time poster. Anyway...
Bonham was absolutely brilliant at doing what drummers are supposed to do. And no one could do it like Bonham.
However, calling Keith Moon a rock drummer is like saying Miles Davis was neato jazzy trumpet player. What Moon did was so far beyond what anyone in that position had ever done before that reducing it to "rock drumming" misses the point, to be charitable. He was the lead instrument in his band, moreso than any drummer in "rock" had (has) ever been -- he really takes his place next to expert orchestrators like Milford Graves, Tony Oxley, Andrew Cyrille and the like. To lump him in with someone as relatively conventional as Bonham strikes me as misguided at best (as well as unfair to Bonham). I've always felt that the reason Moon was underrated (especially when compared to Bonham) was because his innovations were so extreme and not in keeping with standard drumming procedure that most musicians have yet to catch up/on.
It's like Entwistle said: "He didn't play from left to right or right to left, he'd play forward. When you see him playing mad breaks, he's not going around the kit, his arms are moving forward from the snare to the toms. I've never seen anyone play like that before or since."
I'm tired, so this probably isn't that coherent. But saying Moon isn't playing "rock" properly or convincingly is like saying Cecil Taylor is always playing the wrong chords... or that Pierre Henry's tape machine must be broken.
― Matt Weston, Tuesday, 16 December 2008 02:35 (fifteen years ago) link
I don't know enough about drumming to say for sure, but I think I agree with Matt Weston here.
My way of defending my vote for Moon is: I often put on the Who just to hear Moon (e.g. "Happy Jack" on Live At Leeds, hell, that whole album). But I rarely put on Zeppelin just to hear Bonham. Of course I love the fuck out of both bands, and I love Bonham's playing, it's just rarely the centerpiece of my listening to the band.
― Euler, Tuesday, 16 December 2008 02:42 (fifteen years ago) link
bonham. tho moon on "who are you" is great
― Dominique, Tuesday, 16 December 2008 02:51 (fifteen years ago) link
I've always felt that the reason Moon was underrated (especially when compared to Bonham) was because his innovations were so extreme and not in keeping with standard drumming procedure that most musicians have yet to catch up/on.
ditto. i think some people focus on the party animal image too much and forget that he was a genius.
xpost - yeah "Who Are You" is awesome...i never totally understood what people mean when they say Moon's drumming deteriorated or was any less great toward the end, although maybe there's some footage I haven't seen that makes it undeniable.
― pipes1ocki (some dude), Tuesday, 16 December 2008 03:01 (fifteen years ago) link
I'm voting Moon because his drumming on Live At Leeds is so damn great. And he had the good sense to never record a drum solo. Also, Bonham may have had the best drum sound, but that was arguably more Page's input than anything.
Both were easily the two best drummers ever. And who sounds like 'em nowadays? Nobody! You'd think that with all the advancements in recording technology you'd be able to reproduce that classic Bonham sound, but apparently not.
― Mr. Snrub, Tuesday, 16 December 2008 03:06 (fifteen years ago) link
You'd think that with all the advancements in recording technology you'd be able to reproduce that classic Bonham sound, but apparently not.
that's because page & the engineers were the lesser part of the equation. bonham would've sounded great no matter how he was recorded, dude knew what he was going for and hit the drums right.
― Tracy Michael Jordan Catalano (Jordan), Tuesday, 16 December 2008 04:33 (fifteen years ago) link
it wasn't until Tommy that Moon was finally recorded properly.
Clarify, please. To my ears, the early Who singles (Can't Explain, Anyway Anyhow Anywhere, I Can See for Miles etc.) capture Moon far more effectively than the often tinny-sounding Tommy. The production got so laborious and precious on Tommy it almost killed the spirit.
― Jake Brown, Tuesday, 16 December 2008 05:13 (fifteen years ago) link
Clarify, please. To my ears, the early Who singles (Can't Explain, Anyway Anyhow Anywhere, I Can See for Miles etc.) capture Moon far more effectively than the often tinny-sounding Tommy.
OTM - the "the drummer is the main attraction" aspect of the Who is for me limited to these earlier tracks, esp. "I Can See For Miles" and "Happy Jack."
In re: "jazz elitism," fuggit, I'm for it, I favor "I like this guy because I consider him a better musician" as a yardstick. I don't hear the distinction between Moon & Bonham the way Matt does, though - the jazz drummer Moon reminds me of most is Sunny Murray, whose style (in his own combos, anyway) always struck me as kinda lone-wolf - what I like about Bonham, to use a term I've heard jazz players use a lot, is that it sounds like he's listening - like everything that's going on is occurring in real time.
― J0hn D., Tuesday, 16 December 2008 06:04 (fifteen years ago) link
Just my opinion. To my ears, the drum sound on Tommy had a little more clarity and less distortion than the earlier (and, yeah, SUPERIOR) stuff. I guess "properly" wasn't the best term.
― Myonga Vön Bontee, Tuesday, 16 December 2008 06:29 (fifteen years ago) link
xpost yeah "i can see for miles" has always been my favorite moon song. (and, not coincidentally, my favorite who song.)
but i think this clip is a good illustration of how moon worked within the band. the whole band is arrayed around him -- musically and physically he's really the star presence, the centripetal force.
― tipsy mothra, Tuesday, 16 December 2008 06:39 (fifteen years ago) link
i think the moon hate upthread is totally crazy -- i dont think 'lone wolf' is a fair way to characterize a drummer who was such a defining part of the songs he was on, its like getting mad at puffy interjections on biggie records -- it assumes theres some 'natural' version of the track out there somewhere -- expect moon was maybe an even stronger part of what made those songs what they are. i voted moon.
that said bonham was the fuckin man and crazy talented
love this so much esp the latin freakout at the end -- and i cant believe and what doesnt know his zeppelin
― K DEF FROM REAL LIVE (deej), Tuesday, 16 December 2008 06:41 (fifteen years ago) link
you know that part of led zeppelin's 'fool in the rain' ...
― tipsy mothra, Tuesday, 16 December 2008 06:47 (fifteen years ago) link
Both great in their own ways..Moon with the heart of a naughty kid..Bonham with the muscle memory of a top golfer..
― Lincolnshire, Tuesday, 16 December 2008 07:10 (fifteen years ago) link
its like getting mad at puffy interjections on biggie records
lol I'm not sure if you're aware how much I hate puffy interjections on biggie records
― J0hn D., Tuesday, 16 December 2008 07:46 (fifteen years ago) link
I dunno. I agree with Entwistle's comments about Kit Lambert making "the drums sound like biscuit tins." - still, "Overture" and "Amazing Journey" are some of Moon's finest moments.
Bonham fans really need to seek out the bootleg of Bonham's isolated drum takes from In Through The Out Door. Tremendous stuff!
― Chris Barrus (Elvis Telecom), Tuesday, 16 December 2008 08:16 (fifteen years ago) link
Here they are: http://www.saladrecords.com/bonhamfiles.htm
― Chris Barrus (Elvis Telecom), Tuesday, 16 December 2008 08:19 (fifteen years ago) link
"cant believe and what doesnt know his zeppelin"
why is everybody buggin out on this
mom only fux with jazz muzik + dad listened to pre-rock pop ish
anybody wanna make me a zep mix im 400% down
― freek-a-luriqua (and what), Tuesday, 16 December 2008 08:28 (fifteen years ago) link
man if somebody else hasn't picked that up when I get home next week I am on it E
― J0hn D., Tuesday, 16 December 2008 08:41 (fifteen years ago) link
good point except it's totally not
― Granny Dainger, Tuesday, 16 December 2008 14:28 (fifteen years ago) link
u dont get what im saying -- the idea is that keith moon's drum parts on who tracks on like 'happy jack' are as much a part of the compositions as anything else w/in the song
― K DEF FROM REAL LIVE (deej), Tuesday, 16 December 2008 15:45 (fifteen years ago) link
yeah...but puffy is still a terrible comparison.
― The rickroll from the hilarious NEVER GONNA GIVE YOU UP, NEVER GONNA (some dude), Tuesday, 16 December 2008 15:47 (fifteen years ago) link
As long as we're making jazz references ... when I first heard that famous Charlie Parker sax break in "Night In Tunisia" I got that same "holy shit" feeling I'd been having listening to Moon for years. Chops, yes, but more importantly a brief extraordinary burst of controlled chaos. It's all over The Who's music -- that Anyway clip upthread is just one example. I love Bonham for the groove etc. but rarely get that from him even on his longer solos.
― Jake Brown, Tuesday, 16 December 2008 15:54 (fifteen years ago) link
deej, on behalf of drummers everywhere, i am deeply, deeply offended by that comparison. (also, hi, any drum part is "as much a part of the compositions as anything else w/in the song")
― expletive for lady parts (Granny Dainger), Tuesday, 16 December 2008 16:02 (fifteen years ago) link
not really
― K DEF FROM REAL LIVE (deej), Tuesday, 16 December 2008 16:14 (fifteen years ago) link
i.e. night in tunisia which has been recorded w/ tons of diff drum styles over time yet remains the same song
― K DEF FROM REAL LIVE (deej), Tuesday, 16 December 2008 16:15 (fifteen years ago) link
i would say each version with different drums is a distinct piece of music ie not the same "song". but this is OT. point is that was a shitty comparison. puffy talking over a track is nowhere near similar to moon's or any other drummer's contribution to any piece of music.
― expletive for lady parts (Granny Dainger), Tuesday, 16 December 2008 16:26 (fifteen years ago) link
i think we're talking about the song vs the recording here, and it's totally subjective...some drum parts become signature things that the song would sound weird without, and most don't.
― Tracy Michael Jordan Catalano (Jordan), Tuesday, 16 December 2008 16:32 (fifteen years ago) link
^^^exactly
― K DEF FROM REAL LIVE (deej), Tuesday, 16 December 2008 16:35 (fifteen years ago) link
(and personally i hate hearing zep songs w/out bonham, and most of his shit is totally signature to me :D)
― Tracy Michael Jordan Catalano (Jordan), Tuesday, 16 December 2008 16:36 (fifteen years ago) link
if a drummer isn't creating a memorable part that becomes integral to the composition, he's failed imo. would a biggie track ever sound weird to you without puffy talking over it? if you say yes i don't believe you, so there.
― expletive for lady parts (Granny Dainger), Tuesday, 16 December 2008 16:40 (fifteen years ago) link
there are plenty of classic (and great) rock songs that have generic, purely functional drum parts
― K DEF FROM REAL LIVE (deej), Tuesday, 16 December 2008 16:51 (fifteen years ago) link
ah but they serve a function and the song would be a different one if they were different. and they all could've been even better with better drum parts. basically you're saying you melody and harmony are more important to a song's DNA than drums, no?
― expletive for lady parts (Granny Dainger), Tuesday, 16 December 2008 16:57 (fifteen years ago) link
and that these are equivalent statements?"i don't like moon's drumming there. ruins the song""i don't like puffy's interjections. ruins the song"
― expletive for lady parts (Granny Dainger), Tuesday, 16 December 2008 16:59 (fifteen years ago) link
granny i feel like i'm betraying my people or something here, but deej has a point.
xp
― Tracy Michael Jordan Catalano (Jordan), Tuesday, 16 December 2008 17:00 (fifteen years ago) link
The only point I see is that a lot of songs have weak drum parts, and that Biggie tracks would sound weird without Puffy's interjections. I only agree with the former.
― expletive for lady parts (Granny Dainger), Tuesday, 16 December 2008 17:20 (fifteen years ago) link