Keith Moon vs. John Bonham POLL

If you unwind the clock, then you define the ticks. There is no "before" or "after" the beat if you are the beat.

making up words won't help you

lol at black dog wiki: The dog has nothing to do with the song lyrics,

wait on the 2

It became our way of life

The Jerk was a delayed backbeat thing

There's hella lot of jazz elitism all of a sudden in this thread.

John Bonham: Mary Richards
Keith Moon: Rhoda Morganstern

Bonham: Latka
Moon: Rev. Jim

Long time lurker, first-time poster. Anyway...

Bonham was absolutely brilliant at doing what drummers are supposed to do. And no one could do it like Bonham.

However, calling Keith Moon a rock drummer is like saying Miles Davis was neato jazzy trumpet player. What Moon did was so far beyond what anyone in that position had ever done before that reducing it to "rock drumming" misses the point, to be charitable. He was the lead instrument in his band, moreso than any drummer in "rock" had (has) ever been -- he really takes his place next to expert orchestrators like Milford Graves, Tony Oxley, Andrew Cyrille and the like. To lump him in with someone as relatively conventional as Bonham strikes me as misguided at best (as well as unfair to Bonham). I've always felt that the reason Moon was underrated (especially when compared to Bonham) was because his innovations were so extreme and not in keeping with standard drumming procedure that most musicians have yet to catch up/on.

It's like Entwistle said: "He didn't play from left to right or right to left, he'd play forward. When you see him playing mad breaks, he's not going around the kit, his arms are moving forward from the snare to the toms. I've never seen anyone play like that before or since."

I'm tired, so this probably isn't that coherent. But saying Moon isn't playing "rock" properly or convincingly is like saying Cecil Taylor is always playing the wrong chords... or that Pierre Henry's tape machine must be broken.

I don't know enough about drumming to say for sure, but I think I agree with Matt Weston here.

My way of defending my vote for Moon is: I often put on the Who just to hear Moon (e.g. "Happy Jack" on Live At Leeds, hell, that whole album). But I rarely put on Zeppelin just to hear Bonham. Of course I love the fuck out of both bands, and I love Bonham's playing, it's just rarely the centerpiece of my listening to the band.

bonham. tho moon on "who are you" is great

I've always felt that the reason Moon was underrated (especially when compared to Bonham) was because his innovations were so extreme and not in keeping with standard drumming procedure that most musicians have yet to catch up/on.

ditto. i think some people focus on the party animal image too much and forget that he was a genius.

xpost - yeah "Who Are You" is awesome...i never totally understood what people mean when they say Moon's drumming deteriorated or was any less great toward the end, although maybe there's some footage I haven't seen that makes it undeniable.

I'm voting Moon because his drumming on Live At Leeds is so damn great. And he had the good sense to never record a drum solo. Also, Bonham may have had the best drum sound, but that was arguably more Page's input than anything.

Both were easily the two best drummers ever. And who sounds like 'em nowadays? Nobody! You'd think that with all the advancements in recording technology you'd be able to reproduce that classic Bonham sound, but apparently not.

You'd think that with all the advancements in recording technology you'd be able to reproduce that classic Bonham sound, but apparently not.

that's because page & the engineers were the lesser part of the equation. bonham would've sounded great no matter how he was recorded, dude knew what he was going for and hit the drums right.

it wasn't until Tommy that Moon was finally recorded properly.

Clarify, please. To my ears, the early Who singles (Can't Explain, Anyway Anyhow Anywhere, I Can See for Miles etc.) capture Moon far more effectively than the often tinny-sounding Tommy. The production got so laborious and precious on Tommy it almost killed the spirit.

Clarify, please. To my ears, the early Who singles (Can't Explain, Anyway Anyhow Anywhere, I Can See for Miles etc.) capture Moon far more effectively than the often tinny-sounding Tommy.

OTM - the "the drummer is the main attraction" aspect of the Who is for me limited to these earlier tracks, esp. "I Can See For Miles" and "Happy Jack."

In re: "jazz elitism," fuggit, I'm for it, I favor "I like this guy because I consider him a better musician" as a yardstick. I don't hear the distinction between Moon & Bonham the way Matt does, though - the jazz drummer Moon reminds me of most is Sunny Murray, whose style (in his own combos, anyway) always struck me as kinda lone-wolf - what I like about Bonham, to use a term I've heard jazz players use a lot, is that it sounds like he's listening - like everything that's going on is occurring in real time.

Just my opinion. To my ears, the drum sound on Tommy had a little more clarity and less distortion than the earlier (and, yeah, SUPERIOR) stuff. I guess "properly" wasn't the best term.

xpost yeah "i can see for miles" has always been my favorite moon song. (and, not coincidentally, my favorite who song.)

but i think this clip is a good illustration of how moon worked within the band. the whole band is arrayed around him -- musically and physically he's really the star presence, the centripetal force.

i think the moon hate upthread is totally crazy -- i dont think 'lone wolf' is a fair way to characterize a drummer who was such a defining part of the songs he was on, its like getting mad at puffy interjections on biggie records -- it assumes theres some 'natural' version of the track out there somewhere -- expect moon was maybe an even stronger part of what made those songs what they are. i voted moon.

that said bonham was the fuckin man and crazy talented

love this so much esp the latin freakout at the end -- and i cant believe and what doesnt know his zeppelin

you know that part of led zeppelin's 'fool in the rain' ...

Both great in their own ways..
Moon with the heart of a naughty kid..
Bonham with the muscle memory of a top golfer..

its like getting mad at puffy interjections on biggie records

lol I'm not sure if you're aware how much I hate puffy interjections on biggie records

it wasn't until Tommy that Moon was finally recorded properly.

I dunno. I agree with Entwistle's comments about Kit Lambert making "the drums sound like biscuit tins." - still, "Overture" and "Amazing Journey" are some of Moon's finest moments.

Bonham fans really need to seek out the bootleg of Bonham's isolated drum takes from In Through The Out Door. Tremendous stuff!

Here they are: http://www.saladrecords.com/bonhamfiles.htm

"cant believe and what doesnt know his zeppelin"

why is everybody buggin out on this

mom only fux with jazz muzik + dad listened to pre-rock pop ish

anybody wanna make me a zep mix im 400% down

man if somebody else hasn't picked that up when I get home next week I am on it E

its like getting mad at puffy interjections on biggie records

good point except it's totally not

u dont get what im saying -- the idea is that keith moon's drum parts on who tracks on like 'happy jack' are as much a part of the compositions as anything else w/in the song

yeah...but puffy is still a terrible comparison.

As long as we're making jazz references ... when I first heard that famous Charlie Parker sax break in "Night In Tunisia" I got that same "holy shit" feeling I'd been having listening to Moon for years. Chops, yes, but more importantly a brief extraordinary burst of controlled chaos. It's all over The Who's music -- that Anyway clip upthread is just one example. I love Bonham for the groove etc. but rarely get that from him even on his longer solos.

deej, on behalf of drummers everywhere, i am deeply, deeply offended by that comparison. (also, hi, any drum part is "as much a part of the compositions as anything else w/in the song")

not really

i.e. night in tunisia which has been recorded w/ tons of diff drum styles over time yet remains the same song

i would say each version with different drums is a distinct piece of music ie not the same "song". but this is OT. point is that was a shitty comparison. puffy talking over a track is nowhere near similar to moon's or any other drummer's contribution to any piece of music.

i think we're talking about the song vs the recording here, and it's totally subjective...some drum parts become signature things that the song would sound weird without, and most don't.

^^^exactly

(and personally i hate hearing zep songs w/out bonham, and most of his shit is totally signature to me :D)

if a drummer isn't creating a memorable part that becomes integral to the composition, he's failed imo. would a biggie track ever sound weird to you without puffy talking over it? if you say yes i don't believe you, so there.

there are plenty of classic (and great) rock songs that have generic, purely functional drum parts

ah but they serve a function and the song would be a different one if they were different. and they all could've been even better with better drum parts. basically you're saying you melody and harmony are more important to a song's DNA than drums, no?

and that these are equivalent statements?
"i don't like moon's drumming there. ruins the song"
"i don't like puffy's interjections. ruins the song"

granny i feel like i'm betraying my people or something here, but deej has a point.

xp

The only point I see is that a lot of songs have weak drum parts, and that Biggie tracks would sound weird without Puffy's interjections. I only agree with the former.

I guess those are two points, huh

some drum parts become signature things that the song would sound weird without, and most don't.

depends on the genre, doesn't it? or are you only talking about rock, in the first place?

I can't imagine "Big Poppa" without Puffy's parts, but anybody could have delivered them, it's not like his "how you livin' Biggie Smalls?" is SO INCREDIBLY FRESH as to rule out anybody else giving it - you know? So while I see yr point deej I still think it's bogus but I would say that because as president of the Society For Are-You-Still-Bugging-About-That I have to fulfill my obligations in this important election season

vote for me, I still hate Puffy

Darn1e11e/Puffy beef back ON

For me, it's Mitch Mitchell, THEN Bonham, THEN everybody else including Moon.

Oh and now I am remembering this thread from long ago

You know that part of Led Zeppelin's "Fool in the Rain" where they come out of the silly Latin section back into the main piano riff and there's like a steadily rising drum roll and

Wherein mad props were given to Bonham's fills circa In Through the Out Door and somebody posted the raw drum trax and we were in heaven for a brief lovely while