New Christgau Consumer Guide From MSN Music

"it seems the Popist brigade has embraced her almost to a man."

Huh??

I loved Milk Eyed Mender and [harsh words in re: Ys redacted, yay self-censorship]

and popist brigade sounds snotty, sorry, and definitely hyperbole in action there - but even the Lex (!) likes it

I am sorry I didn't understand the sentence. :/

Well, either way. I didn't like the first album either. Though I like Newsom because she gives me things to talk about (as opposed to Cookie Mountain which I neither disliked or liked enough to say a word about), I really dislike listening to her. Talented, but can't stand is OTM. Except for the talented part.

2xpost

Otherwise he's spot-on on Beyonce and Thomas Mapfumo, and as hopeless as the rest of us on parsing TV on the Radio's appeal.

"Supposedly inspired by milestones in Newsom's life, these whimsical pastoral allegories reveal only that her taste for the antique is out of control."

but i disagree and have to ask what is so bad about having out of control taste for anything? i get how it jibes with the opening sentence, but it's a rather conservative position to take. also it probably wouldn't be too difficult to frame beyonce in the same way, but beyonce doesn't get that treatment because she isn't indie?

ys would be more interesting w. her just playing the harp, i find the kind of singing she does, a nusiance (and i think that she hides some skills on purpose)

bday is an album that i found really revealtory, for a number of reasons, and i thought that it should have done better critically and commerically. though i often disagree xgau, i was feeling that i was the only one who thot this was (her/a) masterpeice.

it's undignified & makes him sound like a bitter old hippie.

And I still don't understand why people think what Lily Allen's parents did for a living is "relevant" as far as whether her music's any good or not (which is not to say it's not interesting; that sort of thing is always interesting. Actually, maybe the Joanna Nuisance review would be better if Bob was more specific about her class upbringing. Which I know nothing about; is it common knowledge? When Bob uses "privilege", I definitely assume "class" is coming into play, though I could well be misinterpreting him.)

I'm with Scott on the Clipse's words. Just like with lots of rappers (and plenty of non-rappers, though not too many country guys), I'm generally clueless on what the lyrics are supposed to add up to, and I'm not sure why being clueful about them would be a prerequisite to liking the record. Some lines they do sound cool; some less so. CD gets by on mood, inasmuch as it gets by (I'd give it a B+ or so too.)

is your position "people can't help being rich"? on the one hand, you're right, but on the other hand, privilege is a fair critique of a narrative/aethetic stance think: economic privilege, racial privilege, gender privilege, what have you - Newsome's vision is sorta by-and-for a real specific demographic and as such is profoundly limited, isn't that the point of what he's saying?

-- Thomas Tallis

I liked Milk Eyed Mender but Ys is nigh-on unlistenable to me.

I keep saying this but go find the live recordings (w/accompanying players substituting VDPs arrangements on folkier instruments (not the full-orchestra shebang) and you'll be amazed how much more instantly palatable her singing is (vocally, calmer phrasing with some breathing space), how much warmer and musically appropriate it sounds, how the depth finally reveals itself... and then want to *slap her* for wishing to make Ys some kind of point-proving outré monolith that unfortunately turned into a plain unfriendly complete fuck up.

Shit like this is SO frustrating to me that although I think she's capable of being very, very good, in the long run I honestly think I'm better off just giving up on her NOW >:-(

There's NO REASON Ys should be that impenetrable, and when presented with a little bit of care... it isn't! But I found out a bit too late and now all I feel towards it is hate for wasting so much of my fucking time "getting" it.

This is true enough, but Christgau giving props to a gangsta rap album without tackling the moral issues is always going to come off as weirder than it would with most critics, because he worked more than most at putting these issues in the forefront of other reviews he's written (see his stuff on N.W.A., Dr.Dre.)

But hip-hop is now where rock was in the early '80s, when veterans such as Joni Mitchell, Randy Newman and Lou Reed were the equivalent of what the book trade called publishers' poets back when commercial publishers dealt poetry.

Not trying to take us back to Newsom, but I think this pretty much sums it up for me. If not for the big names involved and the genuinely promising debut album, I highly doubt as many critics would've reacted to Ys. as positively as they did. Impossible to know, though, of course.

Herr Christgau's tendency to conflate Europe and Germany betrays his Teutonic roots, come to think of it.

Master of Puppets [Elektra, 1986]
I feel at a generational disadvantage with this music not because my weary bones can't take its power and speed but because I was born too soon to have my dendrites rerouted by progressive radio. This band's momentum can be pretty impressive, and as with a lot of fast metal (as well as some sludge) they seem to have acceptable political motivations--antiwar, anticonformity, even anticoke, fine. But the revolutionary heroes I envisage aren't male chauvinists too inexperienced to know better; they don't have hair like Samson and pecs like Arnold Schwarzenegger. That's the image Metallica calls up, and I'm no more likely to invoke their strength of my own free will than I am The 1812 Overture's.

You go, Carola, for choosing Here, My Dear.

Yeah, that too - great album, I remember when it wasn't easy to find for a little while.

Btw, just glancing at his best of the last decade list essay, I've got to admit, I'm pretty impressed *and* perplexed that so many decades down the line he still puts the New York Dolls on par with, say, Thelonious Monk as far as his personal favorites go. Like, even if you like the Dolls a lot, that's just two records and if it was between those first two and, say, the first four from the Ramones, I'm still surprised anyone would pick the two Dolls, even if they loved them.

idk, makes sense to me. I think the world of the Dolls, and in their case, their legacy really is that concentrated, and for a pretty logical reason. I think they had it in them to record a third great album in 1975, but they only had a two-record contract and there was no interest in renewing. David Johansen went on to make a great debut solo LP, Johnny formed the Heartbreakers, etc...I would only pick one rather than both, but it's not an easy call. The first gets the edge for the songs, but the second has an edge for other reasons as well.

if the debarge record is in a special way, xgau is not overrating it

Yeah, I didn't really know it before so I'll give it time. I like it, but it probably wasn't a great idea to approach it with lofty expectations.

No doubt Christgau can come across as an opinionated asshole in his writing. I guess that's part of his brand. Unfortunately that kind of brand for a writer is very out of fashion these days. Or at least it has a way of provoking social media pile-ons in a way that didn't exist way back when. Being intentionally provocative hasn't aged well, in the era of the 24-hour online outrage cycle. He was ahead of his time in championing underrated black musical styles and calling out (predominantly white) rock critics for being provincial about not taking them seriously, and also made an effort to nurture and provide space for up and coming black critics at the Voice, but he also could use provocative racial terms in a way that provokes a lot of cringe today (and probably did to some extent even back then). He contains multitudes.

I haven't really listened to him talk before. I think he actually comes across better here than he often does in his writing. Maybe having Carola there softened him a bit, but he sounds fairly self-deprecating. He admits that he has a personal allergy to the European classical tradition, which also makes metal mostly a blind spot for him. I have no problem with that. I don't think critics should strive to be objective judges of all music, because it's impossible and kind of boring. I think sometimes his writing is too condensed and somehow a bit superficial, like he is sketching out the bones of an argument without really filling in enough of the sinew that should hold it together, and he's a bit too reliant on the sort of wise-guy dismissal of other views, but his intelligence really shines through when you listen to him in conversation. I think part of his style as a critic is importing high-brow terms and concepts from academic criticism to the rock sphere, so perhaps for him using street-level insults and moaning about "Yurrup" is a way to balance that out and show he's not an egghead.

metallica's pecs weren't that impressive

here is his review of "USA," his highest rated King Crimson album, which invokes a lot of the tropes we've just discussed

He actually rated Red even higher, with an A-. (Maybe the only prog album he rated that high too.)

I don't think critics should strive to be objective judges of all music, because it's impossible and kind of boring.

Agree. The problem for me is that Christgau-worship among critics as a class leads to the kind of music Christgau likes ("smart" rock with "acceptable political motivations") becoming the kind of music rock critics like. His personal biases became institutional biases, basically.

I still sigh when I think of Here, My Dear being in every delete bin in the early '80s for $1.99 and me not buying it. I liked other Marvin Gaye albums at that point well enough that my inaction baffles me.

Not aimed at anyone specifically, but agree with Thus Sang Freud above. He's written a few million words...a lot, anyway. I've written a tenth of 1% of that and routinely come across something from years ago that makes me wince.

I think part of his style as a critic is importing high-brow terms and concepts from academic criticism to the rock sphere, so perhaps for him using street-level insults and moaning about "Yurrup" is a way to balance that out and show he's not an egghead.

Replace 'Yurrup' with another slurred continent, and see how that sounds.

Look, I simply have a hard time respecting a critic who repeatedly and consistently insults me because I was born on the wrong side of the Atlantic. Surely that's an understandable position? I also have a hard time with, say, French critics who automatically dismiss anything that comes out of the US (although I can't recall the last time I actually came across such a case).

I haven't really listened to him talk before. I think he actually comes across better here than he often does in his writing. Maybe having Carola there softened him a bit, but he sounds fairly self-deprecating.

I think this is pretty common with critics, and it's probably a reflection of how often people in general behave better when they're talking to someone (especially in-person but even on the phone). I'm sure that applies to everyone here, or at least I would hope.

He deals explicitly with this topic (not with metal) in his 2002 EMP Pop Conference presentation, "U.S. and Them: Are American Pop (and Semi-Pop) Still Exceptional? And by the Way, Does That Make Them Better?", included in his book.

French critics who automatically dismiss anything that comes out of the US (although I can't recall the last time I actually came across such a case)

Surprised by this. I'm not familiar with French music criticism, but isn't French culture famously more respective and appreciative of American culture than Americans? Not everything obviously, but stuff like jazz to classic Hollywood to even comic books?

It's a love-hate relationship. Or perhaps it's fairer to say that it's not the same people.

To be clear, the snooty knee-jerk anti-Americans have been on the wave for several decades now.

*wane

I find Joe Levy funny in these last two editions. He's pretty sly at deflating Christgau--like the way he pushes back on the idea that he hates What's Going On, and then goes on to pretty much say exactly that. (I actually agree with Christgau on the album: three amazing songs plus stuff I can't remember.)

I guess I've just never quite understood the Dolls as much more than a concept, let alone as a band anyone would say is vying to be their absolute favorite. Those albums are good, I just don't think they're *that* good. Maybe you had to be there.

Funny, this is exactly what I would say about the Ramones! (I’m not a huge Dolls fan, but I would take them over the Ramones any day.)

To be clear, the snooty knee-jerk anti-Americans have been on the wave for several decades now.

Interesting. My first time in Paris was during the tail end of the (second) Bush years, and I was surprised how many Parisians my age didn't seem anti-American at all. Almost to a fault - McDonald's seemed depressingly popular - but I remember they were all enthusiastically planning to visit L.A. or NYC or just came back from there, and that stuck out after putting up with "freedom fry" twits in America. I think soon after I saw a new film (Assayas's Summer Hours?) where they mention how the "kids" these days were all into American things. Maybe it's a generational thing?

Ah now I see the "wane" correction, I thought it was on the upswing!

I love What's Going On, as much as I love Sgt. Pepper. Neither would be among my top 3 albums of their respective years, but they're still great albums in my book. The "3 songs + filler" is the most common knock on What's Going On but I didn't learn to hear past that when I stopped trying to judge it by the individual parts. It's hard to explain, but it's like a book where you have scenes or chapters that don't feel remarkable out of context, but without them, the book isn't a masterpiece. Like you need to read those to get the whole thing. The album works brilliantly for me as a stream-of-consciousness immersion into a stoned, traumatized mind, but that's only if I hear it all - that narrative doesn't actually reveal itself without swimming through the entire first side.

*hear past that until I stopped trying to judge it by the individual parts

Oh, I get that, it's just a bore for me after the three sinles.

*singles

The Paula Deen of American Rock Critics TM