quiddities and agonies of the ruling class - a rolling new york times thread

max & cr?m otm

Nobody's shitting on academia, as far as I can tell. But, I'm sorry, the insistance that college makes you more 'worthy' of a good/stable/high-paying job is silly, and kind of elitest – and that if you go to college you are more deserving of one than somebody who didn't/couldn't/hasn't yet.

Mind you, I've got 2 post-bac degrees, and I've worked minimum wage for most of my career.

(i fucking hate it)

yeah idk i think most bad jobs are shitty, dispiriting wastes of time and its super gross for louis c.k. are anyone to be like 'dont complain' abt them

remy otm

like i can sort of see the argument that 'in our america of today the virtue and vitality of work has been debased' but i think that has as much to do w/ the type of 'work' ppl are being forced to do, rather than our prevalent attitudes towards 'working'

calling the dockworker MBA--or whoever is out there saying "i have a degree, i should be putting it to use"--elitist just occludes the fact that we have what is apparently a very broken system in place. it puts the blame on the people who were "screwed" (for lack of a better word) instead of the institutions doing the screwing

yeah idk i think most bad jobs are shitty, dispiriting wastes of time and its super gross for louis c.k. are anyone to be like 'dont complain' abt them

― *clicks 'OK'* (Lamp), Thursday, September 1, 2011 6:53 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

eh i think what he said is otm & funny but more in the "no one has dream jobs at age 20" sense

i should add that i dont really think theres anything "elitist" about wanting some kind of return for the time and money you invest in a college education!

most jobs are shitty –– if there's a truism in the universe it's that you don't have any right to be happy at work. it's nice, and lucky, if you are. but you should also feel very, very lucky to have a job at this particular juncture in history and not be a grudge-filled asshole about it.

like i can sort of see the argument that 'in our america of today the virtue and vitality of work has been debased' but i think that has as much to do w/ the type of 'work' ppl are being forced to do, rather than our prevalent attitudes towards 'working'

― *clicks 'OK'* (Lamp), Thursday, September 1, 2011 7:55 PM (40 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i think its def partially to do w/that, like good blue collar jobs dont exist anymore, but its also a state of mind thing imho

But, I'm sorry, the insistance that college makes you more 'worthy' of a good/stable/high-paying job is silly, and kind of elitest

really? i mean maybe not automatically but shouldnt at least have some correlation to them? and if it doesnt than what should? luck? ancestry? being handsome? nothing?

there is something inherently elitist in thinking that your time spent talking about chaucer in small groups of like-minded people qualifies you for high-paying work more than four years as an apprentice electrician running cable in the rain at 5am for $12/hr

yeah, that's hyperbole

if we believe that to be true why shit on the dockworker MBA?

but you should also feel very, very lucky to have a job at this particular juncture in history and not be a grudge-filled asshole about it.

so honduran migrants picking crops in south florida for a few dollars a day should just be happy theyre making more than they were in their villages?

i mean lol internet arguing tactics but i mean...

there's more than one conversation happening here

1) higher education is kind of broken, as is the economy

i do thinks its p fd up that everyone is always u need college to get a good job then these kids pay all this money to go to college then they cant get a good job and everyones like welp - but on the other hand you do have to be somewhat savvy in life to do well

wtf @ driving slowly to save gas

― call all destroyer, Thursday, September 1, 2011 3:51 PM (4 hours ago) Bookmark

iirc the sweet spot is 50-55 mph to get the best gas mileage

2) certain disciplines are maybe not a good idea to get a degree in anymore

horseshoe otm but really it's 1) america is broken

2) nuh uh

i do thinks its p fd up that everyone is always u need college to get a good job then these kids pay all this money to go to college then they cant get a good job and everyones like welp - but on the other hand you do have to be somewhat savvy in life to do well

I agree completely. I don't know where our signals got crossed.

a college degree is still advantageous for getting a job, fwiw

even a liberal arts one

3) people like to feel dignity and meaning in their work and it seems less and less possible in postindustrial america<--not just a problem for the upper middle class as far as i can tell

I agree completely. I don't know where our signals got crossed.

― remy bean, Thursday, September 1, 2011 8:03 PM (26 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i dont think we were arguing iirc

a college degree is still advantageous for getting a job, fwiw

― D-40, Thursday, September 1, 2011 8:04 PM (54 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

even a liberal arts one

― D-40, Thursday, September 1, 2011 8:04 PM (7 seconds ago) Bookmark

yeah i didn't mean to suggest otherwise. this sometimes makes it hard to talk abuot what is wrong with academia, though.

otm

i do thinks its p fd up that everyone is always u need college to get a good job then these kids pay all this money to go to college then they cant get a good job and everyones like welp - but on the other hand you do have to be somewhat savvy in life to do well

yeah i mean in all fairness im p close in age to the ppl in that article and i was always told p blatantly that its not just enough to go to an elite college i had to get v good marks, have decent extracurriculars, spend my summers working at 'adult' jobs/interships &c &c so its not like i cant see why simply graduating w/ a b- average and summers spent surfing and playing in bands and working @ starbucks or w/e and youre not getting consulting gigs but @ the same time i cant spit on a dude for not yknow?

there are other conversations, like, yes sometimes 21 year olds are entitled about jobs because they don't know anything yet, but that doesn't mean that everyone's life should be backbreaking soulcrushing labor until they die

@ Horseshoe's #2) Yes, certainly. There are a lot of people who can't/won't/shouldn't attend higher education that are perfectly skilled and would be happy in jobs that are now requiring a college diploma. When a 4-year degree is required for an "administrative assistant" position that would be equally-well served by a 6-week trade school course and an apprenticeship under a senior secretary, everybody suffers –- the 4-year degree'd "administrative assistant" may feel stifled and like they're working in a job below their potential and skills, and the applicant for the job who would really appreciate it, and take pride in it, is left out in the cold.

4a) is the decline of unions or something

there is something inherently elitist in thinking that your time spent talking about chaucer in small groups of like-minded people qualifies you for high-paying work more than four years as an apprentice electrician running cable in the rain at 5am for $12/hr

a college degree has traditionally served as a signal (= this person is safer to hire than someone who doesn't have the degree). it wasn't 'elitist' to decide that this was a decent investment/goal/use of 4 years. the majority of people who made that investment in the 40 years prior came out thinking they made a good decision - that's why 'college is good, more college is better' has become universally accepted, and still is, even while there's mounting evidence that that isn't quite the case anymore.

otm

although i don't think that it isn't 'just the case' –– i think it's actually injurious to the neediest and least-employable segment of the workforce

there are other conversations, like, yes sometimes 21 year olds are entitled about jobs because they don't know anything yet, but that doesn't mean that everyone's life should be backbreaking soulcrushing labor until they die

― horseshoe, Thursday, September 1, 2011 8:07 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

feel like it's worth pointing out that as americans we are pretty lucky to have (the possibility of) options other than backbreaking soulcrushing labor!

absolutely, which is an even bigger problem that gets less time in the nyt xp

its true being a rickshaw wallah or sharecropper is not that cool

yeah i mean we're still in a position of privilege globally but i don't know this:

most jobs are shitty –– if there's a truism in the universe it's that you don't have any right to be happy at work. it's nice, and lucky, if you are. but you should also feel very, very lucky to have a job at this particular juncture in history and not be a grudge-filled asshole about it.

― remy bean, Thursday, September 1, 2011 7:57 PM (15 minutes ago) Bookmark

kind of comment always rubs me wrong. if you're not independently wealthy then you can't opt out of this, but there's nothing wrong with pointing out that it sucks

I also kind of want to examine how the 'follow your bliss' or 'do what you love for your job' line of thinking plays in to all of this

i do agree with max to an extent, i think our model of higher education can be very reasonably be called a scam as far as it doesn't always deliver its promised economic results and has institutionalized massive personal debt as a rite of passage.

however, and i'm wary of sounding too bootstrappy here, but you get out what you put in, at least as far as a biz degree is concerned i would think. if you hustle your ass off and network with everybody and work your way into good internships, you probably have a higher chance of putting that degree to good use. but if you think that your diploma alone is going to open doors for you, you're likely gonna be disappointed.

my point is, dude in the article comes across as the latter. sitting in his parent's basement "browsing for jobs online" doesn't exactly endear him to my sympathies. his parents started charging him rent? good for them. it sounds like he sorely needed some motivation.

yes i think that's part of what went wrong with academia

xp

I also kind of want to examine how the 'follow your bliss' or 'do what you love for your job' line of thinking plays in to all of this

― dayo, Thursday, September 1, 2011 7:15 PM (17 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

otm mostly bcuz im struggling with this myself irl

seems like we're assuming a lot about this guy and passing judgment from a few 'graphs of a nyt article

however, and i'm wary of sounding too bootstrappy here, but you get out what you put in, at least as far as a biz degree is concerned i would think. if you hustle your ass off and network with everybody and work your way into good internships, you probably have a higher chance of putting that degree to good use. but if you think that your diploma alone is going to open doors for you, you're likely gonna be disappointed.

― elmo argonaut, Thursday, September 1, 2011 7:15 PM (45 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i think its fair to say that this kind of thing isnt always communicated to college students

fwiw I think ygl is right on this and the american university system is pretty much gonna implode in our lifetimes

http://thinkprogress.org/yglesias/2011/09/01/309988/bold-prediction-of-the-day-universities-are-the-new-newspapers/

i never did an internship -- no one ever really impressed on me how much easier it would make things -- i wish they had