rolling china thread 2011

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The big development over the next couple of years might be universities in the UK, Aus and US setting up campuses within China to deliver satellite programmes.

Our unis are big on setting up regional campuses (one even has one in South Africa) so yeah, very likely if it hasn't happened already. The Aus–China link is strengthening by the week atm.

Autumn Almanac, Friday, 2 September 2011 10:33 (twelve years ago) link

yeah but who will be able to afford to attend those campuses?

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 10:34 (twelve years ago) link

Hundreds of thousands of Chinese students come to the UK, Australia and the US each year as it stands. Depending on the pricing model, i could see it being pretty attractive to the growing number of middle-class families who can't afford to send their kids abroad but want the perceived status boost of an English-language degree.

There's an Australian organisation (RMIT, i think) that has 12k students in their Vietnam campus already. There's a market out there.

A little bit like Peter Crouch but with more mobility (ShariVari), Friday, 2 September 2011 10:41 (twelve years ago) link

sorry if I'm being cynical and seeing it as a giant cash grab

parents who can afford to send their kids to study overseas are already pretty damn well-off relative to the rest of chinese society

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 10:42 (twelve years ago) link

Nah, it's a total cash grab. Transnational education's a multi-trillion dollar business. Standards tend to be decent but there's no doubt it further reinforces the division between haves and have-nots.

A little bit like Peter Crouch but with more mobility (ShariVari), Friday, 2 September 2011 10:44 (twelve years ago) link

Ha, RMIT is where I'm doing my zhongwen course \(^__^)/

Autumn Almanac, Friday, 2 September 2011 10:44 (twelve years ago) link

fwiw whenever I've seen the promotional material for our int'l campuses it's never clear about the proportion of local students v Australians. They all seem to happen in an exchange programme but I don't remember seeing any South African students in my old uni.

Autumn Almanac, Friday, 2 September 2011 10:52 (twelve years ago) link

Oh and the students in the photos always look rich.

Autumn Almanac, Friday, 2 September 2011 10:52 (twelve years ago) link

it's kind of crazy but the buying power of the renminbi in china is pretty equivalent to the buying power of the USD in america - so like a bottle of shampoo that costs $4 in america will cost around 3-4 RMB (sometimes less!) in China. (one reason why americans/most westerners feel like they are the KING OF THE WORLD when they come to China). so you can live by pretty decently on, say, a 4000 RMB a month salary, which is actually really really good if you're a recent college grad or someone who's not a big boss.

but then you try and use that salary to finance your kids education overseas and it's like, damn, education all of a sudden costs 10x what it does inside the country

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 10:52 (twelve years ago) link

this is pretty lol

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90780/7443254.html

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 22:27 (twelve years ago) link

China has made remarkable progress in modernization in the last half century, while the same progress took developed Western countries one or two hundred years. China's growth has not only brought direct benefits to more than 1.3 billion Chinese people but also promoted the world prosperity as it has become the engine for world economic growth.

Certain international observers cannot find an answer to this question: How did China make such remarkable progress in such a short time?

"Certain international observers" looooooooooooooooool. I do not know where to start with this.

Autumn Almanac, Friday, 2 September 2011 23:08 (twelve years ago) link

"waah it took you two hundred years to modernise and look, we just built a highrise in six years!!!! omg"

i just

Autumn Almanac, Friday, 2 September 2011 23:10 (twelve years ago) link

Sorry for triple post but I know what's bothering me, it's that the article is exactly like when people write their own wikipedia pages. I keep wanting to put "(citation needed)" after everything.

Autumn Almanac, Friday, 2 September 2011 23:13 (twelve years ago) link

Anyway there's also this (also re the People's Daily) http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/02/us-china-internet-idUSTRE78110S20110902

Basically the party wants to anticipate when some internet thing is likely to catch on and block it before that happens.

Once the government tries to control an Internet technology that has already become popular, it faces "fierce resistance and a backlash" from users, and also international criticism, said the newspaper.

"Clearly, in the future when developing and applying new Internet technologies, there must first be a thorough assessment, adopting even more prudent policies and enhancing foresight and forward thinking in administration," it said.

Autumn Almanac, Friday, 2 September 2011 23:25 (twelve years ago) link

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/03/world/asia/03china.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

very troubling

dayo, Saturday, 3 September 2011 11:33 (twelve years ago) link

china should chill out and stop executing and disappearing everyone

ice cr?m, Saturday, 3 September 2011 12:34 (twelve years ago) link

More Chinese Dissidents Appear to Disappear

interesting phrasing

ice cr?m, Saturday, 3 September 2011 12:38 (twelve years ago) link

radiohead should send someone to assist the chinese g'v'ment

dayo, Saturday, 3 September 2011 12:40 (twelve years ago) link

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/05/business/global/china-changes-direction-on-car-sales.html?pagewanted=all

this is great news - cars are such a fucking scourge in china. this past winter in beijing, sat in two half an hour long traffic jams in which my bus did not move a single inch until a traffic officer was called in to untangle things.

dayo, Monday, 5 September 2011 12:26 (twelve years ago) link

related, terrifying lols:

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjk5ODM1NDA4.html

hope it's fake but also totally believable, the things chinese parents will subject their children to is really unlimited.

dayo, Monday, 5 September 2011 14:40 (twelve years ago) link

also speaking about losing dialects, the manchu dialect is pretty much done:

http://www.bruce-humes.com/?p=4985

dayo, Monday, 5 September 2011 14:44 (twelve years ago) link

When Ji Jinlu , 66, was a boy, he was unable to speak Putonghua until he went to school at age nine. Today he has hardly anyone to talk to in his native tongue.
Ji is an ethnic Manchu - a descendant of a nomadic tribe from northeastern China that became the imperial rulers of the country for more than 250 years. He is one of fewer than 100 remaining Manchus with a working grasp of the language.

Like most remaining speakers, Ji's native tongue has become rather rusty over the years as most people in his village, including his children and grandchildren, are unable to speak it.

"Even if you speak Manchu with them they don't understand," said Ji, a farmer born and bred in remote Sanjiazi village in Heilongjiang province, where farmers grow rice and keep dairy cattle. "And they don't want to learn anyway."

Although there are more than 10 million people in China who are classified as ethnic Manchus - most of whom live in Heilongjiang, Liaoning and Jilin in the northeast - linguists say that Sanjiazi is the last Manchu-speaking community in China.

Even then, only three villagers - all over 80 years old - are fluent in their native language and another 15 - above 70 years old - are conversant to some degree in their mother tongue, says Professor Zhao Aping , director of the Manchu Language and Culture Research Centre at Heilongjiang University.

The traditional nomadic lifestyle Ji knew as a boy is gone forever. And the Manchu language, which is rich in hunting terms and the names of wild animals, has never seemed more irrelevant or obsolete in the lives of the villagers.

"My grandfather took me hunting and together we would catch foxes, eagles, rabbits. But I haven't hunted for more than 40 years and children these days don't even learn to ride horses anymore," Ji said. "People have forgotten the Manchu language. I suppose it will disappear in 10 or 20 years - I guess this can't be helped."

Shi Junguang , 34, is one of the few villagers who senses the urgency of saving the language, and has spent the past few years building a sound archive of old villagers talking Manchu. He knows that once they go, so too will their heritage.

The former farmer faces an uphill battle. Hardly anyone in the village is interested in preserving their ancestors' language. Most young people, who are brought up speaking Putonghua, have left the village for the cities and others stay home to grow corn, soya beans and rice.

But Shi, who took pains to learn his grandmother's native tongue, became a Manchu teacher when the village school resumed teaching the language in 2006. It is the only primary school in China offering classes in Manchu, even though it is not part of the mandatory curriculum and students only take two classes a week.

"I can see the language just disappearing," Shi said. "If we do nothing to preserve it, our children will blame us one day. The language is the root of our identity."

But even with Shi's enthusiasm and the classes he teaches at the school, linguists say it will not be easy to revive Manchu. Social and economic changes as well as years of persecution of the Manchu identity mean the language is not in a fit state to survive.

One of the Tungusic languages, a family of endangered tongues in Siberia and the former Manchuria, Manchu was the language of the Qing imperial court after its conquest of China in 1644.

A mutually intelligible dialect, Xibe, survives in somewhat better shape on the other side of the country in the Qapqal Xibe autonomous county in the northwest of Xinjiang . Xibe is spoken by descendants of members of an ethnic group allied to the Manchu army sent there by Emperor Qianlong in 1764.

But the Manchu language has been in gradual decline since the population migrated to other parts of the country with the Qing court and was assimilated into the mainstream Han culture through social contact and intermarriage, despite an official policy of maintaining a separate identity.

With the fall of the Qing dynasty in 1911, the Manchu identity, with its association with the ruling class and the special privileges it enjoyed, became an embarrassing liability. During the Cultural Revolution, Manchu speakers were labelled as spies for using their mysterious tongue, forbidden from speaking it and often jailed. Many ethnic Manchus adopted Chinese surnames, changed their officially recorded ethnicity to Han, abandoned their language and hid their ancestry from others, including their children.

Although there has been a recent resurgence of interest among ethnic Manchus, some of whom take weekend classes to learn the language, linguists say it is almost impossible to stem the downward trend.

"The death of Manchu is inevitable," Zhao said. "When these old people in their 70s and 80s pass away, so will the language."

According to a study by the Inner Mongolia University, 85 per cent of Sanjiazi's population were Manchu speaking in 1961. But in later studies by the Heilongjiang Manchu research centre, the figure had fallen to 50 per cent in 1986 and 18 per cent in 2002, just 186 people. Another study in 2009 found that fewer than 100 people in the region - mostly Sanjiazi residents with some living in other villages in Heilongjiang - still had some ability in Manchu.

Sanjiazi - literally "three families" - was a close-knit community descended from three Manchu families that made up a military garrison sent there in 1674 during Emperor Kangxi's reign to defend the border against the Russians. The village was virtually cut off from mainstream Han culture until the 1950s when a road was built connecting it to the nearest town.

As Han Chinese settled in the village in subsequent decades, the linguistic environment changed dramatically, making it a necessity for the Manchu-speaking villagers to communicate in Putonghua.

Linguists say the obligatory use of Putonghua at school, the lack of Manchu lessons in the formal school curriculum and an absence of qualified teachers have also contributed to the demise of the language.

Shi and a colleague, probably the country's only primary-school Manchu teachers, are non-native speakers and rely on old textbooks that emphasise vocabulary and the language's Mongolian-derived script, rather than conversational skills.

Perhaps a greater factor in the demise of Manchu is that the villagers themselves are voluntarily giving up their own language, mainly due to the restricted social use and the perception of its low value as a tool for economic and social advancement, linguists say.

"A language needs a proper environment to thrive," Zhao said. "With rapid modernisation and economic development, people want to find jobs in the outside world, and the Manchu-speaking community has become out of touch with mainstream society."

Putonghua has long been the default language in Sanjiazi. Even elderly native Manchu villagers greet each other in Putonghua, switching to Manchu only occasionally. Local people even call Manchu fan hua, the foreign language.

"Manchu is in fact already a dead language because people don't converse in it anymore," said Professor Guo Mengxiu , who is the deputy director at the Manchu research centre in Heilongjiang.

To arrest the decline of the language, linguists are calling for government initiatives to promote the use of Manchu in education and society. They would like to see Manchu classes included in school curriculums in traditionally Manchu-speaking areas, to give residents social and economic incentives to use it.

"This is an endangered language and the task to preserve it is very urgent, yet there is no plan to save it," said a Manchu expert who declined to be named, bemoaning the lack of a government strategy or funding to save Manchu from extinction.

Examples abound overseas of successful government programmes to resuscitate endangered languages. In Wales, government grants are given to voluntary or private-sector organisations that support activities leading to the increased use of Welsh. Charles, the Prince of Wales, has studied the language. The use of Ireland's ancient Celtic language and the minority Basque and Catalan tongues in Spain are also supported by government initiatives, including radio and television stations in regional dialects.

Experts say Manchu is among more than 3,000 endangered languages in the world that are likely to die out by the end of the century. Manchu is classified by the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation as "critically endangered".

Amid the lack of official initiatives to formally protect it, the task of the preservation of the Manchu language has been left to a handful of ethnic Manchus and scholars who are keen to preserve their roots.

Li Dan , 33, and Liu Feixiong , 27, both ethnic Manchus passionate about discovering the culture and identity of their ancestors, have been running free Sunday classes in a Beijing hutong since 2007. The classes are taught by volunteers who, like themselves, have only learned the language over a few years from the available books and dictionaries and from other non-native speakers.

"I was just curious: how did my ancestors speak?" said 25-year-old Sirdan, an auditor and amateur Manchu teacher who started learning the language four years ago.

Linguists applaud their resolve, but said their efforts would sadly not be able save the Manchu language.

"The efforts of enthusiasts will help a little bit, but not in the real sense of passing on the heritage," Guo said, noting that native speakers had long abandoned the language. "If the people themselves are willingly giving it up, others' efforts to save the language will be in vain."

dayo, Monday, 5 September 2011 14:48 (twelve years ago) link

sad

rent, Monday, 5 September 2011 15:17 (twelve years ago) link

I know! the manchus were fucking baller.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurhaci

I am totally stealing "Aisin Gioro" for my indie rock band name

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisin_Gioro

dayo, Monday, 5 September 2011 15:20 (twelve years ago) link

yeah always sad to see a language die, but one with that kind of history is extra poignant and significant.

i feel bad for the old ppl. if i was them i would grab the youngsters of the village by their collars and tell them listen to me speak manchu. but i guess if there's no point there's no point.

rent, Monday, 5 September 2011 15:30 (twelve years ago) link

keep xibe alive

rent, Monday, 5 September 2011 15:35 (twelve years ago) link

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/07/arts/chinese-art-collectors-prove-to-be-a-new-market-force.html?pagewanted=all

lol @ anybody pretending these dudes are in it for any reason other than being mercenary profiteers, hope the vicissitudes of the art world leave their new 'investments' in flames

dayo, Wednesday, 7 September 2011 11:22 (twelve years ago) link

also color me surprised (not)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/07/world/asia/07china.html

dayo, Wednesday, 7 September 2011 11:23 (twelve years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2Yuv92ttt4

found this at http://adamcathcart.wordpress.com/, thought i'd drop this off here, since we were talking about nationalism, chinese cultural identity (and manchus came up too right?). wakeman like a lot of other contemp china historians (outside of china) emphasizes that china as a great big solid idea one nation one race never really existed. lecture proper begins around 14:50.

dylannn, Wednesday, 7 September 2011 21:21 (twelve years ago) link

I guess it doesn't matter much what the historical basis is if it's being pushed as the party line

dayo, Thursday, 8 September 2011 10:59 (twelve years ago) link

http://behindthewall.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/09/07/7647012-c-section-baby-boom-in-china

lol @ chinese mothers

also lol @ article for calling this a bribe: "She spent about $3,000 on her surgery, which did not include the "red envelope" of $150 she gave to her obstetrician and anesthesiologist, a common bribe offered by Chinese patients before a big surgery."

dayo, Friday, 9 September 2011 11:12 (twelve years ago) link

so here's the new proposed criminal law code mentioned in the nyt article

http://www.npc.gov.cn/COBRS_LFYJ/user/UserIndex.jsp?ID=2526729

and here's an unofficial translation of article 30 which I found to be pretty accurate

Residential surveillance2 should be carried out at the residence of the accused criminal suspect; those without a fixed residence can be held at specified location. As for those suspected of harming state security, terrorist activities, or major corruption, carrying out residential surveillance in their residence could pose obstacles to investigation, [so if it is approved by] the immediately superior people’s procuratorate or the public security organ, the residential surveillance can be carried out at an appointed location. However, the appointed place does not need to be a detention center or a designated case center [专门的办案场所].”

The family members of the person being held should be notified of the location and reasons for the detainee’s detention at a designated location for residential surveillance within 24 hours of the detention being carried out, except in cases where notification is impossible or the detainee is suspected of involvement in harming state security or terrorist activities, or if informing them could impede investigations.

dayo, Friday, 9 September 2011 11:37 (twelve years ago) link

http://maryannodonnell.wordpress.com/

i wanted to recommend that to somebody for a while. she writes really well about contemp china and urban change in a place that i think is not written about often enough or not written about well enough, shenzhen.

dylannn, Saturday, 10 September 2011 08:21 (twelve years ago) link

yeah shenzhen is super important. third or fourth biggest metropolitan area in china right? I think I've seen her blog before - she was featured on cnn go's hk site I think.

some promising news: http://news.xinhuanet.com/politics/2011-09/09/c_122010702.htm

dayo, Saturday, 10 September 2011 12:01 (twelve years ago) link

the long decline of hong kong into china's shadow is going to be sad to watch

re: li keqiang's visit

The Laguna City housing tour went well until a resident, Wong Kin, and his daughter ventured too close to police lines. Wong was arrested presumably because of the T-shirt he was wearing. On the back was printed in very large red and blue Chinese characters: “REVERSE THE VERDICT ON JUNE FOURTH; the Revolution Has Not Yet Succeeded; BUILD DEMOCRACY; Comrades Must Still Persevere” (Standard, photo, Sept. 2). June Fourth refers to the 1989 removal of protestors from Tiananmen Square, Beijing, after their movement was officially designated subversive. Hong Kong democrats’ favorite rallying cry is to reverse the 1989 verdict and remove the subversive label that justified the crackdown.
Wong was physically picked up and carried away by several plainclothes members of the VIP protection team. One of the men reportedly told the daughter that it was “rude” to wear such a shirt. Police later said they arrested the man because he moved in too close to their security zone, and then subsequently fined him for an old jaywalking offense. Police also prevented a TV cameraman from filming the whole scene (Apple, photos, Aug. 31). Later they claimed they mistook his camera for a “black shadow” and reacted instinctively.

dayo, Saturday, 10 September 2011 12:08 (twelve years ago) link

re: china's virulent nationalism

http://www.chinalawblog.com/2011/09/when_china_rules_the_world_well_see.html

One key difference is that China is not a nation-state but should be understood as a "civilization-state." Its identity was formed well before China assumed the status of a nation-state. What defines the Chinese, therefore, is not their sense of nationhood but their sense of civilization, a civilization frequently claimed to have existed continuously for the past 5,000 years. Another difference, says Jacques, is that China is increasingly likely to revert to an ancient conception of its East Asian neighbours as tributary-states rather than as nation-states. Until little more than a century ago, China was organised in relation to these other peoples. Yet another difference is that there is a distinctively Chinese attitude to race and ethnicity. Unlike the world’s other most populous nations, the Chinese do not acknowledge or seek a multiracial character. The Han Chinese, comprising a majority of some 92%, believe themselves to comprise a distinct race whose superiority, when a long view is taken, they regard as self-evident. In this view, Western ascendancy is a recent and brief anomaly, following which China will return to its natural position at the centre of the world. It is this latter point which gives rise to one of Jacques' most compelling concepts: the "middle kingdom mentality."

dayo, Saturday, 10 September 2011 12:52 (twelve years ago) link

(can you tell I'm catching up on my google reader feed)

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/evanosnos/2011/09/chinas-iceland-moment.html

dayo, Saturday, 10 September 2011 12:57 (twelve years ago) link

happy midautumn festival ya'll

dayo, Monday, 12 September 2011 23:43 (twelve years ago) link

that martin jacques book got a fair amount of attn here a couple of yrs ago

i guess it's useful that he calls into question the durability of the westphalian order but he does seem like an old trot axegrinder and probably not /that/ literate wrt to china

diouf est le papa du foot galsen merde lè haters (nakhchivan), Tuesday, 13 September 2011 00:01 (twelve years ago) link

yeah wouldn't be surprised if the book was an attack on the_west w/ china as a useful vague placeholder threat/alternative

dayo, Tuesday, 13 September 2011 00:28 (twelve years ago) link

bestseller china books are shit and no one writing them is "/that/ literate wrt to china." martin jacques misunderstands chinese history and misunderstands contemporary ideological and cultural trends in china. i think.

dylannn, Tuesday, 13 September 2011 05:46 (twelve years ago) link

i noticed a while ago how many ppl write wrt to and now im doing it too oh well

diouf est le papa du foot galsen merde lè haters (nakhchivan), Tuesday, 13 September 2011 14:54 (twelve years ago) link

it's a useful new prep. phrase and serves as a more intellectual signal than 'about'

dylannnn I'd be interested in hearing more about your criticisms of jacques (I haven't actually read his book, just thought the book review/summary raised interesting points)

dayo, Tuesday, 13 September 2011 17:06 (twelve years ago) link

what would you say your stance is wrt wrt

dayo, Tuesday, 13 September 2011 17:17 (twelve years ago) link

there are lots of talking point china economy criticisms. but bestseller china books tend to ignore them: horrible horrible corruption, inefficiency and lack of innovation, an export oriented economy with household consumption consistently hovering around 30% of gdp, a fucked up relationship between china's banks and its state owned enterprises which has led to questionable investment and a lot of unpaid debt, the destruction of the country's air and water, the increasing inability to secure resources, a huge gap between rich and poor. china can't keep growing without heavy duty restructuring.

but beyond the economy. china is not building its growth on an ancient indigenous philosophy or a radically different view of modernity.

china's elite are reading neoliberal economists not mencius.

"confucianism" should be banned from discussions of china. it should be banned from all discussions. it is meaningless, except as vague shorthand for "traditional philosophy of east asia" by people that are unfamiliar with the traditional philosophy of east asia.

china's development will definitely follow its own unique path. but its current model is fucked and can never be successful in the long run. even now, there is widespread protest.

jacques is quick to point to the racial makeup of china, its strong nationalism. but china is not racially homogeneous and pushing the nationalist myth is a project that the central government spends billions on. where we see a big ol country called china, there has been 6000 years of warring competing states.

south korea is another place that's racially homogeneous and makes a big deal of it. south korea is pretty fucking nationalistic. south korea is culturally distinct from the west. south korea has its own unique cultural institutions. but it also has rule of law and democracy and cleaves to a vaguely western idea of modernity (if that matters).

dylannn, Tuesday, 13 September 2011 20:50 (twelve years ago) link

yeah I do agree with a lot of that. but I am interested in how chinese people conceptualize china, and, if we're being real, how han people conceptualize china, because that's what counts right now right? like it's interesting to me that you ask any US citizen about the history of the US, they are probably going to start more or less in the 1700s - maybe some discussion of amerigio vespucci and all that but our conception of the US as a modern nation state nicely dovetails with the enlightenment. and if you ask any chinese person about the history of China, the rote answer is going to be that China has thousands of years of history - four thousand sometimes! and they're going to start talking about 秦始皇 and all that.

and yeah I totally agree with you about the nature of china's nationalist myth - but you can't deny that in today's age more than ever the chinese government has exactly the right tools and promulgation techniques to make sure that gets indoctrinated everywhere!

dayo, Tuesday, 13 September 2011 21:14 (twelve years ago) link

i guess i'd just argue that the average chinese people know very little about the ideological debates that really shaped china as it looks like right now, post 79. the 5000 years of grand chinese history conception has very, very little to do with what actually guides the nation. even if folky nationalism and qinshihuang are important myths. major disconnection between 老百姓 conception of china and elite level ideology. i guess similar to american grassroots rightwing people being disconnected with actual nuts and bolts ruling neocon ideology. i don't know if i phrased that in a way that makes sense to anyone but me.

dylannn, Tuesday, 13 September 2011 22:02 (twelve years ago) link

yeah. thinking back I think it's probably enough to acknowledge that there is going to be a pretty big cultural gap between china and the_west, and it doesn't really matter what the cause of that gap is, and it's tough to talk about these subjects without accusations of essentialism. or to look to china's conception of itself might be turning over the wrong stone.

dayo, Wednesday, 14 September 2011 00:00 (twelve years ago) link

Hu are you
Hu Hu
Hu Hu

炒面kampf (Autumn Almanac), Thursday, 15 November 2012 11:43 (eleven years ago) link

two weeks pass...

anyone have any recommendations for books on chinese history? i know there's thousands upon thousands of years of material, and i'm not quite sure where to start

Spectrum, Saturday, 1 December 2012 19:12 (eleven years ago) link

interested in a certain period?

dylannn, Saturday, 1 December 2012 19:58 (eleven years ago) link

i only have a vague notion of it right now. i guess i'd like to start with qin, han, and three kingdoms, and work my way through ming. i'm interested in the culture and civilization aspect, and always found china pretty damn fascinating.

Spectrum, Saturday, 1 December 2012 20:07 (eleven years ago) link

my focus is late imperial/modern china so i'm sure someone else can recommend better books on deep historical china but i'll throw out three

china's golden age: everyday life in the tang dynasty by charles benn. because the tang is the golden age and you need to read about the grandeur and supreme cultural development of yangzhou and xi'an during the tang.
the confusions of pleasure: commerce and culture in ming china by timothy brook-- absolutely 100% best book on ming china. divided by season, each season covering roughly a century. he charts the movement from agrarian society into advanced government/commercial powerhouse. i think this is a pretty common chinese history 101 book and everyone's read about the brick-- he uses the inscriptions on a brick to trace it back to a certain kiln, explains the system of paying taxes with labour, shows how the canal systems worked. lots of non-elite perspectives, but also talks about the ming tribute system, international relations. and check out the troubled empire by brook, which deals with the mongol invasion of china, the creation of the yuan dynasty, song dynasty loyalists, the cultural influence of the yuan on the song.
if you're going to be reading about the ming, i guess i like return to dragon mountain: memories of a late ming man by jonathan spence, a history of the ming through the eyes of a literatus, lots of poetry and courtesans and bureaucracy.
the imperial capitals of china by arthur cotterell does a good job at overview, by skipping through the various capitals of chinese dynastic regimes, goes from the semi-mythical shang to qing dynasty beijing.

dylannn, Saturday, 1 December 2012 20:41 (eleven years ago) link

these are all recent, too.

if you only read one: confusions of pleasure

dylannn, Saturday, 1 December 2012 20:45 (eleven years ago) link

these books sound pretty cool, thanks. i love reading about what everyday life was like through history

Spectrum, Sunday, 2 December 2012 02:14 (eleven years ago) link

two weeks pass...

chinese ambassador on tv here notes that the graphic of china behind him is incomplete: no taiwan

things that are jokes pretty much (Nilmar Honorato da Silva), Friday, 21 December 2012 22:53 (eleven years ago) link

eleven years pass...

Quite an interesting piece on the Chinese economy and how it has been changing

https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v46/n05/nathan-sperber/the-mayor-economy

xyzzzz__, Monday, 4 March 2024 08:58 (one month ago) link

it was good. i liked too this nathan sperber piece on macro control: https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2023/02/macro-control-making-sense-of-a-central-concept-in-chinese-economic-policy/.

XxxxxxxXxxxxxxxxXxxxx (dylannn), Monday, 4 March 2024 10:28 (one month ago) link

dylan is hefei worth visiting?

, Tuesday, 5 March 2024 13:30 (one month ago) link


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