quiddities and agonies of the ruling class - a rolling new york times thread

My friend's girlfriend was telling a story about how she got her BA and then got a shitty apartment and started temping and immediately wanted out and decided grad school was probably a decent idea. Several years later, she's a "senior research associate" (went from BA in biology -> grad school in biogenetics I think?) and doing ok.

So yeah, maybe the key is just explaining to kids that the point of college isn't to train you for a specific career and that a degree in and of itself isn't a guarantee for a job. I don't know if I ever really understood that, but I lucked out. I still think education is an inherent good, but at some point you have to eat, right?

I think that a lot of education (especially liberal arts, which I love) is unfortunately a little too high-minded and detached from the working world. And while the cognitive conditioning and work habits it inculcates are for the good, and the acculturating it offers productive (even if only, like 30% of the US is able to get it), it's often useless and inapplicable in the real world. It's valuable in a larger life sense, and sometimes it helps make young people more globally aware, but I don't know that I believe it's better than four years of apprenticeship if we're looking at it as job training.

To be honest, even computer science is that way to an extent, which is why colleges are offering programs that sound like a more academic version of job-training courses (software engineering, for one). Most CS programs are still incredibly theory-based, with only the entry classes (intro to programming) and a handful of the junior/senior year classes involving actual programming. The rest is pretty much mathematical proofs, how processors work, and low-level theory.

I thought it was a good program at the time as it creates a more analytical mind, but I also ran into grad students who could barely operate a computer at the time even if they had a 4.0 in all the theory shit. So, it makes me sad that there's pressure to make college programs more like job training, but I see where the urge comes from.

the thing is, the large majority of office jobs don't need tailored training and w/ our economy people can expect to work in more than one field over their lifetimes. while *more* job training is good, it can't solve every problem.

big picture problems:
a. college is ridiculously expensive
b. there are no jobs

Yup, basically we've backed things into a corner by:
- Requiring a college degree for every entry level office job
- Increasing the cost of those degrees when they're no longer a scarce good

The problem is that most of the remedies I see proposed to this boil down to "Keep lower-class kids out of college."

they already are!

Making education more affordable has been a sidelined democrat standby for years! Meanwhile, the republican line appears to be to gut public education and focus on job skills.

I think we'd all have better careers if we stopped posting to ILX and got to work!

yeah don't really get the point that college is out of reach financially even to the lower classes---at my big public research university (in flyover country but w/e, it's not like *undergrad* is better at a public uni on the coasts), it's $230 a credit hour (for in-state tuition), and you need 120 credit hours to graduate, for a total of about $28,000 for a degree. If you work at a during for say 48 weeks a year, you need to earn $146 a week to graduate without tuition debt. At a minimum wage job, that's 20 hours a week. Around here it's reasonable to spend about the same amount on living expenses per year as tuition---that's room & board costs on-campus, & you can do it for less off-campus if you want to share a place with friends & eat less than the all-you-can-eat in the dining halls. I think most of our students graduate with some debt because they work 20ish hours a week during the school year & full-time only during the summer.

so yes of course private schools are ridic expensive, but if there's a sham in American higher ed it's the thought that a private education is worth it (though, hehe, all my degrees are from private universities, but I had scholarships / had a stipend in grad school, so obv ymmv).

xp haha it's helpful for me to think about these things as I am thinking about the value of what I offer students

fwiw i was given scholarships out the azz by my private liberal arts school -- there are more than a few that are basically like, if you get in, we'll make sure you can afford it. you have to do work study or w/e but \oO/ big deal

12-14 hours/semester at my flyover public research uni is $4500, without factoring in living expenses, books, etc.

Looks like resident tuition for a full year (well, just fall/spring) at the university I went to is $7,486 for undergrad. For out of state students, it's $19,357.

yeah don't really get the point that college is out of reach financially even to the lower classes

There are a lot of mechanisms in place to distribute tuition assistance/scholarships only to 'worthy' students. For instance, students who are claimed as dependents by their parents will almost always have an _expected parental contribution_ even though the parents will often be unable/unwilling to provide help. Students with interrupted schooling who have defaulted/delayed repayment of loans to one school will not be allowed to apply for loans at another school. Students who incorrectly fill out loan forms, or whose plans change during the school year – often because of work/work-study schedule shifts are unable to apply for additional loans to 'bridge' cost of living or increased course-content expenses. And $4500/semester is out of reach for a lot of people.

It's been my experience that employers will actively discriminate against those with higher degrees, either out of insecurity, to take advantage of a "better, more thankful" workforce, or because they (speciously) claim that more educated people 'wouldn't be happy' in X job.

And $4500/semester is out of reach for a lot of people.

Why? I'm actually serious: is it because they have to pay for other stuff besides their tuition & living expenses? because I explained above how much you have to work a week to avoid debt at these prices.

i would guess that a 40 hour work week would be necessary to support on-your-own living expenses for a not-so-great job and that college is, conservatively, an additional 30 hours a week of work. Money aside, that means that if you have a physical infirmity or a child, the chances that you can pull this off are both slim and none.
Sure, everybody knows somebody who does it but the barrier is fucking high.

What i'm getting at is that something's gotta give. You either have to go into debt or not have any other responsibilities at all but school and work or be independently wealthy. If you can't do any of the above, no college 4 u.

Assuming your minimum wage job clears $6.50 after taxes/FICA/etc. (which may be high or low, I haven't had a paycheck job in years), you need to work 692 hours or 17 full-time work weeks just to pay tuition, no other living expenses.

I couldn't really go to school at all until I was no longer a 'dependent' per FAFSA (which was 24-25, IIRC).

Because there's frequently debt going into a degree, and it isn't just a flat -$4500 every semester, it's an _additional_ $4500/semester. My BIL works 60 hours/week for $950 to support his family. If he stops working to go to school, the family isn't just adding an additional $4500/semester, it's also losing its only source of income, the schedule he's worked out for childcare, the health and benefits he gets for the family through his employment, the WIC payments and food/fuel assistance that mandates 20+ hours week (not work-study) for distribution.

euler, while there are some public u's that are 'relatively cheap', they're:

a. not options for people who don't live in those states
b. depending on what you're going to do, they will sometimes limit your options post-graduation.
c. generally raising tuition way faster than inflation

I mean I don't know where you teach but look up what the tuition was in 1980 and 1990

forks I did the math above & you're wrong; 20 hours a week at minimum wage at $7000 tuition a year is all you need to graduate without tuition debt, & you can expect living expenses to be at most the same cost at tuition, unless you're going to school in a ridiculous place in which case lol you.

milo z: 17 full-time work weeks just to pay tuition doesn't seem out of reach

I say this having worked through college (wanted the experience) & knowing that most of our students here do the same & do just fine

it's true that having a kid while you're in college fucks this up royally, but I'm hesitant to say that's a reason to university costs are too high

xp not $4500 a semester; at my uni $7000 a year

Frankly, college is also out of reach for a number of people because it's still not even on the radar. In a larger high school, you almost need at least one counselor doing full-time college application work, talking with students about how to apply for scholarships, doing workshops on how financial aid works and what options are. If the kids' parents aren't really there, or don't know anything about this stuff because they're busy working and they didn't go to college, then you have a lot of inertia keeping these kids in a place where college doesn't even seem like an option.

iatee: a degree from a public u might "sometimes limit your options post-graduation" but so does $120,000 in debt.

yes I agree, I went to a public u and I think (almost) everyone should! but it can limit peoples' options if you're intent on grad school, various high-paying careers etc.

and again, as far as $ goes - you're for the most part limited to the schools in your state, many of which are getting quite expensive so the fact that your school is (relatively!) cheap doesn't help anyone who doesn't live in that state

maybe we should take this to a new thread?

which states are known for having shitty public u's? alabama?

20 hours a week at minimum wage at $7000 tuition a year is all you need to graduate without tuition debt, & you can expect living expenses to be at most the same cost at tuition

hopefully this isn't you but I decided to google a random, probably comparable school, and went w/ the university of nebraska - this was their tuition per unit (before the recession! now it's 208)

1997 $78.50 4.7%
1998 $82.75 5.4%
1999 $87.25 5.4%
2000 $92.00 5.4%
2001 $101.25 10.1%
2002 $111.50 10.1%
2003 $128.25 15.0%
2004 $143.75 12.1%
2005 $151.00 5.0%
2006 $160.00 6.0%
2007 $169.50 5.9%

not too far off!

SUNY Albany (the flagship public uni of NY iirc) has tuition the same as my state, about $7000 per year.

binghamton is usually considered the flagship iirc

the article i posted scares the shit out of me btw because it hits a little too close to home

WHAT!@??!? That cost DOUBLED in 10 years!! I'm pretty sure wages have, by some measure, actually declined in that same time so it's MORE than doubled.

Does anyone want to argue that it was artificially low to begin with and this increase is somehow warranted?

it's only artificially low if you believe that the public shouldn't invest in education

d's right tho this should be a new thread

I will start it one sec

ok Binghamton's pretty much the same

xp ok will go there

There's a bigger issue than the cost, though - the lack (or, often, perceived lack) of academic/writing/social/disability/ELL support and outreach for first-gen college attendees.

generation limbo: 20-somethings today, debt, unemployment, the questionable value of a college education

oaky

talking about rich people only itt

milo z: 17 full-time work weeks just to pay tuition doesn't seem out of reach

last post, then other thread:
The math is all sorts of nonsense (it doesn't factor in Pell Grants or other aid, many students who will be waiters who average more like $12 after taxes in flyover land, etc.), but it does highlight that a self-funded public university education isn't a piece of cake.

Working students still considered dependents for FAFSA are the most fucked - IIRC half of my income as an 18-year old was expected to go to my school. I only made $24k busting my ass waiting tables, but that effectively denied me any kind of aid without taking into consideration the EFC.

It's been my experience that employers will actively discriminate against those with higher degrees, either out of insecurity, to take advantage of a "better, more thankful" workforce, or because they (speciously) claim that more educated people 'wouldn't be happy' in X job.

many law school grads have found this out the hard way.

well you want someone whos gonna stay at a job, and people w/higher degrees/aspirations will only stay until they get that better job

i have trouble getting jobs because interviewers think "he's so fucking handsome, he'll just go somewhere else because ppl love him so"

at least that's what my mom says

ive had that trouble too, suxx

hard being pretty *sighs*

mookieproof's mom thinks I'm handsome, too!

then you can be the one to explain to her what her 'wipe out santorum' badge really means