generation limbo: 20-somethings today, debt, unemployment, the questionable value of a college education

my hs had it, I didn't take it

^^^we did and I managed to studiously avoid all of them

we also had an auto-repair type class, I think

the stuff I learned in my hs journalism class - particularly how to write, use a computer, and lay things out - came in much handier professionally than anything I learned in college, really. but liberal arts degrees/colleges are not really about learning a specific subject matter imho, they're about training your mind to think critically and work in different contexts.

I would definitely be making more money in the same industry I'm in now if I'd gotten an engineering degree, but I always hated math.

school is awful - full of false promises and useless work
memorization and paper achievements
any kind of real sense of desires to learn or create are put to the side

yeah 'critical thinking' is the rote response to people who question the value of a liberal arts education

I'm still trying to think through the true value of the ability to 'think critically' in the job market

dayo it was called the vocational wing in my hs

also folks, this is my line of work and i have a lot of relevant things to say, but i would really rather not discuss it publicly for a variety of reasons

xp - critical thinking is REALLY IMPORTANT esp if you don't have very good critical thinking skills

did anybody actually have 'shop class' in high school?

Was v sad when I had to give up woodshop b/c there was no room for it in the college-prep curriculum. It was down to shop or band, and marching band won.

Just think, I could have grown up to be a stoner!

I tend to take Dewey's line about the value of a liberal-arts-education in creating & nourishing a populace able to handle democracy

+ DFW's take in his Kenyon graduation address

oh I totally agree that critical thinking is implicitly and in and of itself a valuable skill, LL - but that's not how all employers see it

ps - i had shop class in middle school

it's an important skill to have as a human being, not as an employee

I think that the american liberal arts education actually contributes substantial economic value to this country - overall we had a much more adaptable job market in the late 20th century than most of the world. more engineers would be good too, but an economy can't be 50% engineers (and really would anyone want to live in a dystopia like that?) most contemporary jobs don't require specific training and in better economic times can be learned on-the-job.

said it in the other thread but the bigger problems are:
a. jobs! (I know underemployed engineers from good schools!)
b. cost

i do not work at a liberal arts school btw

liberal arts school can't really be blamed for 0 net job growth this month

last month, rather

schools

gonna put that one on the Ivies, as usual

wanna get some class resentment going on this thread also

ime the critical thinking tends to be "i wish i hadn't done a useless humanities degree"

The public university at which I work has increased tuition and enrollment geometrically in the last two years to compensate for evaporating state funding, with no commensurate strengthening of infrastructure.

The quality of students haven't changed much except I'm seeing more examples of mediocrities: girls getting psych degrees as a time killer before marriage because their parents press on them the importance of a college education, guys getting business degrees because, well, they want to start their own franchises, and journalism majors who don't realize how useless that degree is and always was.

true everywhere

an economy can't be 50% engineers (and really would anyone want to live in a dystopia like that?)

Would it be like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHXBL6bzAR4

working nights did not come in handy today. someone called me about an hour into my sleep (10? 11am?) and I gave off the just the most generic dozed pitch, can't even remember what company they were calling from.

lol @ 50% engineer economy; welcome to China :(

gonna put that one on the Ivies, as usual

wanna get some class resentment going on this thread also

― Euler, Friday, September 2, 2011 1:22 PM

ultimately we're being fucked by people in dc and wall street, lots of them went to ivies, all of them are rich, it's not completely hors-sujet

all we needs are farmers and abstract artists

problem with america is not enough grant woods

"school is awful - full of false promises and useless work
memorization and paper achievements
any kind of real sense of desires to learn or create are put to the side"

i really view this as a positive when applied to the evil ambitions of... a lot of people frankly. what other civilizing institutions do we have other than compulsory education? I agree with Thiel in the sense that a lot of motivated people would be personally, selfishly better off not pursuing advanced degrees and doing startups straight from high school, but I disagree that it's a net positive for society.

it seems weird that so mnay people spend so much money on rent/mortgage - seems like just money going to rich banker types instead of food, healthfcare etc

food and health care $ is also mostly going to evil rich people

Nunez - that was just my individual experience - I did however enjoy doodling in the margins of notebooks and dyadreamin

we all dreamed of dyao in school

really Mr Spock, cant we have a spciaety where people dont have to pay fuckin mortgages!

otm xp

btw just so you guys know -- the hammer is coming down on higher ed w/r/t assessment and accountability for their claims. the HLC has issued a whole new system of criteria for accreditation that is designed to force institutions to account for how their time and money is being spent.

fyi

that's mostly w/r/t for-profit schools, which isn't what this thread is really about (tho it is a pretty important subject)

no it's not
it's all schools that want to be accredited

"no it's not
it's all schools that want to be accredited"

are we to accept this wholly as a truth!

the new accreditation process will apply to all schools that wish to be accredited by the HLC (mine is not for profit)

I'll belive it when I see it - mind the menace of such schools!

fwiw philosophy majors rank in the top three nationally on the LSAT, GMAT and GRE pretty much yearly; our only competition is physics & math iirc

lool

i'm interested in your 'just go to a state school argument' because how much does that then start closing doors to possible future careers? or at least certain career paths? i mean the % of ppl who are ever going to sit on the supreme court or be an svp of an investment bank or write for the simpsons or w/e is negligible already but the idea that anyone who cant afford/doesnt want to risk huge debt to pay for a private school shldn't even dream of it is p dispiriting

i mean 'private colleges are really expensive so don't go to them' is reasonable advice except: public schools are getting more expensive, only have so many spaces and is at odds w/ the idea that at least certain private schools are the 'only way' to make it certain professions. also at my large public university the % of tenured professors who did not attend an elite private college is hanging right around 15% w/ most of the coming from oxbridge/my own school. so, yknow...

you don't really have a choice about believing it -- the new accreditation process was released at the 2011 HLC conference, so i can confirm that it's real

the lengths to which some schools will go to conceal their poor job placement numbers/career services? that i can't really say. but reporting it is a part of institutional assessment, and everyone has to do it.

i still dont understand this 'private schools are too expensive' thing -- it was much MORE affordable for me to go to a private liberal arts school than a public one

"you don't really have a choice about believing it -- the new accreditation process was released at the 2011 HLC conference, so i can confirm that it's real"

these things are always a red herring

there's also a gap growing w/r/t private schools in that the best schools can all pretty much give full-rides to the poor/middle class kids they admit. I think going to a no-name local private school is prob the worst deal you can get right now tho. xp

well that's if you go to a good private liberal arts school with a generous financial need policy xp to deej

a lot of third, fourth tier 'private liberal arts' colleges out there that will provide you w/ the same experience but for which you will probably have to finance your entire experience with loan money if you can't pay it upfront

yeah deej is point in case that this can really depend on someone's situation, which makes it even harder to talk about. but *overall* private schools are considerably more expensive.

haha basically what iatee said

"Creating the Climate for Continuous Learning is a distinct Strategy Forum intended specifically for institutions already experienced with AQIP. This Strategy Forum requires an institution to have submitted a Systems Portfolio to AQIP, undergone a Systems Appraisal, and received and analyzed its Systems Appraisal Feedback Report. Registration is open."

listen to this - lifted RIGHT OFF THEIR SITE

did you c/p that randomly or what