http://www.wbez.org/episode-segments/2011-09-20/metro-inmate-highlights-chicagos-connection-mexican-drug-cartels-92217
discussion of chicago's role in mexican drug trade, p essential listening imo
― some lady (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 September 2011 23:46 (twelve years ago) link
sorry for dbl post from facebook
http://gawker.com/5842370/masked-gunmen-dump-35-bodies-on-busy-street
― ice cr?m, Wednesday, 21 September 2011 13:07 (twelve years ago) link
god my sister told me about that this morning. fucking nuts
― forced to change display name (gbx), Wednesday, 21 September 2011 14:10 (twelve years ago) link
a newspaper employee decapitated for a web posting:
http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2011/09/woman-decapitated-in-mexico-for-web.html
i realize that for some there is little choice since they're terribly addicted, but one would think this sort of thing would indeed put people off the casual, recreational use of drugs coming from this region. i realize this is the more "conservative" argument and drugs in an ideal world would be legal so people who do things like this could run out of money and starve to death, but in the meantime, i dunno man.
― omar little, Sunday, 25 September 2011 16:24 (twelve years ago) link
this is one where you might not want to look at the pictures. file it under the usual heading of "the drug cartels as terrorists."
http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2011/09/execution-of-two-chapos.html
― omar little, Sunday, 25 September 2011 16:26 (twelve years ago) link
good lord
― (♯`∧´) (gbx), Sunday, 25 September 2011 16:42 (twelve years ago) link
How does it end? The U.S. will neither legalize nor stop buying drugs. How else will the violence stop?
Only way I can see it is if starts really spilling over the border, not just isolated jetski incidents.
― Pleasant Plains, Sunday, 25 September 2011 16:46 (twelve years ago) link
When the government starts to leave drug dealers alone to conduct their bajillion dollar business in peace and quiet instead of pretending to wage a "war" on them? I wish I knew the answer to "how does the violence stop".
I also think there has been considerable spillage beyond isolated jetski accidents, but it's not always stuff you can see, not splashy like beheadings or w/e.
Also, don't forget about the profitable prison system.
― some lady (La Lechera), Sunday, 25 September 2011 16:53 (twelve years ago) link
if everyone who paid attention to this kinda news + considered themselves a 'kinda ethical consumer' stopped doing coke, would that be enough to change the market dynamic in any meaningful way? I'm gonna say probably not but I don't know how you'd even attempt to measure something like that.
this is like recycling your bottles or making sure you don't waste electricity or whatever - all things I endorse but I don't pretend like they're really 'making a difference'...real change can only come via national policy. but I mean, if you are someone who bothers to recycle your bottles, turn off the lights etc. and you still do drugs w/o really considering where they come from...well, that seems like a weird way to go through life.
― iatee, Sunday, 25 September 2011 16:55 (twelve years ago) link
I realize that in the grand history of absolutely sick, despicable awful inhumane evil things humans have done to each other, beheading someone with a chainsaw is maybe only halfway up the list, but goddamn I didn't need to see pictures. jesus.
― dayo, Sunday, 25 September 2011 16:55 (twelve years ago) link
Anonymous said...I've seen a lot of things on various blogs, but this may be the worst. The individuals working for the cartels are heartless serial killers. These individuals need to be hunted down and executed on site! Forget giving a trial to people like this, as it would be a waste of time to allow them to breathe another moment on earth. You wouldn't slaughter an animal in this fashion, let alone a human being.
...
― iatee, Sunday, 25 September 2011 17:03 (twelve years ago) link
Again, I recommend Charles Bowden's Murder City. I didn't click on the pictures. Honestly, splashy violence/news makes the conflict feel more dramatic/vital/urgent, but it doesn't really do much beyond that. Certainly doesn't solve any problems to look at hacked up people.
― some lady (La Lechera), Sunday, 25 September 2011 17:06 (twelve years ago) link
Yeah, I know about shootings on the U.S. side, just nothing that comes close to the degree of violence in Mexico.
U.S. troops would have to find a "reason" to go in like Panama 1989 or something. Seems weird that there's this huge uncorrupted force amassed on the border doing nothing because the chainsaw executions are happening outside of their jurisdiction.
― Pleasant Plains, Sunday, 25 September 2011 17:08 (twelve years ago) link
it seems to me that what we can do personally is choose not to be part of any kind of larger problem, cf what you mentioned iatee. like it's pretty easy for me to not do drugs and remove myself from that clusterfuck and i'm sure there are plenty of other people who have chosen to do the same for similar reasons. it's not enough to actively change things for the better, but i don't even want to bear the most infinitesimal amount of responsibility for that mess. kinda the same reason i stick to fair trade goods as much as possible and ditch things when i find out they're coming from sketchy sources.
― omar little, Sunday, 25 September 2011 17:09 (twelve years ago) link
i also recommend(ed?) "the daughters of jaurez" by teresa rodriguez, which grimly ties in with the drug war even though the overwhelming number of murders committed against women in juarez during the period depicted may not have to do entirely with drug cartels. it gives a sense of the environment in which those murders were allowed to occur with seemingly little law enforcement intervention and how such violence can be happening today.
― omar little, Sunday, 25 September 2011 17:12 (twelve years ago) link
The worst part is that you have no idea -- most citizens can't have any idea -- where the tentacles of this vast criminal organization go because it is an underwater monster. It's easy to say that you don't want to have anything to do with it, but harder, perhaps impossible, to truly extract yourself from the possibility of contributing when no one knows exactly where the flow of money begins and ends.
That's part of what makes this so disturbing, for me at least.
― some lady (La Lechera), Sunday, 25 September 2011 17:13 (twelve years ago) link
xp, the cartels deliberately keep things quiet on the US side in order not to provoke the police. It's apparently common for people to be kidnapped in Texas, or wherever, and taken back across the border to be executed. Perhaps the lack of intervention on the US side might be down, in part, to a fear of provoking the kind of retribution the Mexican army has seen.
omar little otm regarding recreational drug use.
― A little bit like Peter Crouch but with more mobility (ShariVari), Sunday, 25 September 2011 17:15 (twelve years ago) link
la lechera otm. we really have no idea.
what's disturbing also about some of these recent stories about bloggers getting hunted down and killed is that the cartels must be actively tracking down people speaking out against them, and since those folks in all likelihood tried to cover their tracks you wonder how they were found out.
― omar little, Sunday, 25 September 2011 17:18 (twelve years ago) link
yeah I mean I guess there is still a line between this and fair trade or whatever, cause I mean buying folgers might indirectly make some peoples' lives worse but it's hard to imagine that you could buy coke without, on some level, contributing money to an organization that commits brutal murders on the reg. I'm not defending rec drug use just mentioning that I don't think we could make a real difference on the demand side even w/ some coordinated campaign.
― iatee, Sunday, 25 September 2011 17:24 (twelve years ago) link
Yeah, I know about shootings on the U.S. side, just nothing that comes close to the degree of violence in Mexico.U.S. troops would have to find a "reason" to go in like Panama 1989 or something. Seems weird that there's this huge uncorrupted force amassed on the border doing nothing because the chainsaw executions are happening outside of their jurisdiction.
just declare them to be what they actually are: terrorists.
― (♯`∧´) (gbx), Sunday, 25 September 2011 17:25 (twelve years ago) link
When you snort cocaine, you snort terrorism.
― The Reverend, Sunday, 25 September 2011 22:05 (twelve years ago) link
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/26/world/americas/mexican-teachers-push-back-against-gangs-extortion-attempts.html
scared as shit for them. but godspeed.
― dayo, Monday, 26 September 2011 11:47 (twelve years ago) link
The popular revulsion over extortion has become so powerful that the New People gang, a rival battling the Zetas, took pains during a recent display of grisly hubris to distance itself from the practice. The gang dumped 35 bodies, believed to be Zetas, on a main road near the port city of Veracruz on Tuesday with a sign saying, “People of Veracruz, don’t let yourselves be extorted. Don’t pay any more ‘quotas.’ ”
what am I supposed to do here? cheer?
― dayo, Monday, 26 September 2011 11:48 (twelve years ago) link
here are no due dates or late fees – ever! Try New People for FREE...
― My hetfield very root with me what can I lou? (rustic italian flatbread), Monday, 26 September 2011 12:52 (twelve years ago) link
is coke still huge? i knew a bunch of ppl who snorted it/smoked crack in 2001-02, but afaict I know very very few habitual users these days...
― i'm hearing Bowie sing this, and it's the best single of 1985 (Drugs A. Money), Monday, 26 September 2011 15:37 (twelve years ago) link
(of course I'm a lot less in touch w/ the drug scene these days...)
I don't think there really is an answer. Really the only thing they can do is invade Mexico which obviously isn't going to happen. The Mexicans in power need to stop their war against the drug lords but to be honest I can't imagine their goverment being competant at all, from what I've heard the election/hiring process is ridiculously corrupt. It seems the criteria to get hired are like 1) Who you know, 2) What you look like, 3) Who you'll sleep with, and then like 1000) If you're actually qualified for the job. I don't see how things can get worse.
― frogbs, Monday, 26 September 2011 15:44 (twelve years ago) link
OUT
― i'm hearing Bowie sing this, and it's the best single of 1985 (Drugs A. Money), Monday, 26 September 2011 15:51 (twelve years ago) link
I've been to Ciudad Juarez. When I was about 10 years old my parents drove me and my sister across the border to it from El Paso. It made a strong impression. The INSTANT we were out of our big old, banged-up, no-air-con Ford LTD, we were surrounded by children selling Chiclets. We got an offer from a guy to "watch our car" in exchange for cash. We wandered around an ancient covered market full of dirt-cheap tourist tat. One woman begging for money was carrying what looked like a mummified baby. It was fucking horrific and depressing and I was on edge the entire time. And that was in the late 1980s. I would imagine my parents wouldn't do it again today.
― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Monday, 26 September 2011 15:57 (twelve years ago) link
is coke still huge?
yes coke is still huge
― I saw Mike Love walk by a computer once (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 26 September 2011 16:02 (twelve years ago) link
Right now it's really unsafe to even drive into there, I've heard plenty of stories of cars/buses just randomly getting shot up on the street, it's one of the worst places in the world to be right now. On the plus side, property there is practically free. It's surprising that all this stuff is happening primarily on border towns. The scary thing is that previously 'safe' areas down south are now getting all this violence. I'd heard that Merida was mostly free of drug violence, because that was where the drug dealers families lived! Last time I was there, armored tanks filled the streets with enough ammunition to destroy an entire city block. It's terrifying getting interrogated by a police officer in a language you don't fully understand when the guy is holding an assault rifle and is almost certainly corrupt.
― frogbs, Monday, 26 September 2011 16:02 (twelve years ago) link
― i'm hearing Bowie sing this, and it's the best single of 1985 (Drugs A. Money), Monday, September 26, 2011 11:37 AM (38 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
― i'm hearing Bowie sing this, and it's the best single of 1985 (Drugs A. Money), Monday, September 26, 2011 11:37 AM (37 minutes ago) Bookmark
A few years back, when I was 25 or so, my roommate and I were both ex-potheads. We were talking about the old days when we were 18, lol. I remember telling her something like "yeah, but I guess once you get to be our age people don't smoke pot anymore." WRONG. Just talking about observations you might have if you're out-of-touch with the drug scene.
― My hetfield very root with me what can I lou? (rustic italian flatbread), Monday, 26 September 2011 16:20 (twelve years ago) link
I know lots of people who still smoke pot; a (not-quite-so-overwhelming-anymore) majority of the people I know still smoke pot. Some of them are on pills too, maybe even a few are still on meth...I mean, most of the folks I associated with are the working poor, so that probably explains a lot.
Just seemed like you guys know people irl who still do coke pretty regularly, whereas I don't (or if they do, I don't know about it).
― i'm hearing Bowie sing this, and it's the best single of 1985 (Drugs A. Money), Monday, 26 September 2011 16:39 (twelve years ago) link
Oh yeah, I know what you were saying. I have no idea who does what among most of my friends and acquaintances, just because I really don't party at all anymore. But if there's one thing I'm pretty sure of, it's that coke has not gone away.
― My hetfield very root with me what can I lou? (rustic italian flatbread), Monday, 26 September 2011 16:57 (twelve years ago) link
look at any line outside any club, those people are coked to the gills
― Air Supply dwarf belts helpless Packers fan (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 26 September 2011 17:04 (twelve years ago) link
here's some ILX0rs that love cocaine
― Air Supply dwarf belts helpless Packers fan (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 26 September 2011 17:11 (twelve years ago) link
yeah i dont go to clubs Shakey; but still, good to know.
― i'm hearing Bowie sing this, and it's the best single of 1985 (Drugs A. Money), Monday, 26 September 2011 17:19 (twelve years ago) link
I dont know how much coke there is in the Midwest but I always assumed it was more of a southern thing. Here it's mostly prescription drugs that everyone is obsessed with.
― frogbs, Monday, 26 September 2011 17:23 (twelve years ago) link
it's so deeply ingrained in the culture now I kinda don't know how you would ever get rid of it - it's one of those things that codes as "glamorous"/"dangerous"/something you do if you're "young" and "wild" and "rich"
xp
― Air Supply dwarf belts helpless Packers fan (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 26 September 2011 17:23 (twelve years ago) link
much love for aerosmith as always but serious lolz at his "don't get all super-judgmental about cocaine when i am sure you have blood on your hands from SOMETHING in your life" stance on that thread. like i am pretty okay with "drawing distinctions" between the coke industry the shady and indefensible practices of certain aspects of food production because i have to eat to fucking stay alive, though i am not always happy with the choices available to me food-wise thanks to location or finances or hell just laziness, which makes me complicit, sure, but otoh i am pretty sure everyone who pays for a completely inessential-to-life mild powder-based buzz is helping to fund the mass murder of children for their fleeting pleasure, including me, back in the days when i did coke.
― strongo hulkington's ghost dad, Monday, 26 September 2011 17:34 (twelve years ago) link
otoh i'd be pretty okay if humanity dried up and blew right off the planet, just for anyone who wants to beat me to the "well you dont HAVE to eat, either" zing. what can i say, life much like cocain use, a habit's a habit's a habit.
― strongo hulkington's ghost dad, Monday, 26 September 2011 17:35 (twelve years ago) link
cokehead would say you're just addicted to food
― Air Supply dwarf belts helpless Packers fan (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 26 September 2011 17:40 (twelve years ago) link
learn to photosynthesize, asshole
― dayo, Monday, 26 September 2011 17:43 (twelve years ago) link
I couldn't read Bowden's book. I hated the way it was written, or at least how the first few dozen pages were written.
One of the (naive?) best ways to help Mexico is to vacation there and help underscore that tourism dollars come easier than drug war money. There are vast hunks of the country relatively unaffected by the violence, at least for now.
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 26 September 2011 17:47 (twelve years ago) link
strongo otm.
― omar little, Monday, 26 September 2011 19:02 (twelve years ago) link
exactly where are the safe parts right now?
― frogbs, Monday, 26 September 2011 20:59 (twelve years ago) link
yeah, I had a similar experience but got about halfway through. writing style doesn't change drastically.
of course, I was hoping for a more historical breakdown and that just wasn't what the book was going for.
― original bgm, Monday, 26 September 2011 21:21 (twelve years ago) link
xpost It's a really big country, so the safe parts would be, I presume, most of Mexico. The worst stuff is by the border. But the Yucatan Peninsula is super safe, for example.
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 26 September 2011 21:44 (twelve years ago) link
I dunno if you read my post upthread, but the Yucatan is definitely starting to get some of this. I was there last year for my now-wife's graduation and the party was cut short b/c there were threats to capture and kill people there. Some of her family members have been followed and have been threatened kidnapping if they haven't come up with some ridiculous sum of money. Most of it is just, threats but there have been a number of murders there and my wife fears that things are getting worse. As I mentioned, when I was there they were putting tanks on the streets and had a bunch of armed checkpoints on the highways. Merida was supposed to be a "safe haven" because apparently some gangs had families there, but I don't know how true that is now.
― frogbs, Monday, 26 September 2011 21:48 (twelve years ago) link