New York City- classic or dud?

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

Not all messages are displayed: show all messages (580 of them)

I've got a bunch of friends here who used to live in Chicago, and they all liked it there a lot. Cold, though.

Ok, so how about the people? Everyone thinks NYC is so rude, but living in SF, I prefer New Yorkers. The average person here is passive-agressive as hell, nobody makes eye-contact with you, yet paradoxically, everyone's all full of themselves and smug. Give me a forthright New Yorker anyday. I think I'd still rather live here though.

― Sean, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

NY is Noah's Ark and SF is a petting zoo.

― Kris, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

We do pizza a damn sight better than Chicago, that's for sure. Baseball too. ;)

Anyhow, I don't like NYCers as rude people stereotype because I don't find it to be true. Fast moving, yes. Which means that they aren't going to strike up a conversation with you standing on the subway or something, unless they are insane and/or unemployed. If you look lost, they aren't going to offer help. If you ask nicely, they'll help though. I've never been to a city with people so willing to help people cross the street, give out directions (correct ones!), tell how to get to places, give advice. Everyone is very friendly. People just mistake natural defenses as being rude, generally because they are from hick towns and aren't used to having to have any defenses.

― Ally, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Someone is confusing manners with passive aggressiveness and outright agression with honestness. Rude assholes found in NY are just as passive aggressive, if not more so, than anywhere else. They are just openly so, as well.

― Nude Spock, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Hey, Ally just copped the other stereotype of NYers: "If you ain't from NY, you're from some hick town." There was a great cartoon on the net about that, but I don't remember where. People in "hick towns" are more than willing to help you cross the street. People are just so amazed that NYers will sometimes act nice that they blow it out of proportion. This reminds me of those people on talk shows that say, "I TAKE CARE OF MY KIDS" like it's something to be proud of. You're SUPPOSED to take care of your kids. And you're SUPPOSED to help someone who's lost. Big deal!

― Nude Spock, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Comparing various cities=Dud. It's boring, its irritating, and its like some kind of odd pride thing for people. I give up.......

― Ronan, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

New Yorkers are the friendliest people in the USA. Well, outside of the South, that is. Angelenos are similar to San Franciscans, except they're also insecure and vain. It's all Hollywood's fault.

Dave-Yeah, it's a little olde tavern, has something to do with Eugene O'Neill lore. I missed the whole Secret Theatre scene but I used to hang out at the El 'n' Gee when it was filled with the types of folks being discussed and dismissed on the "pub rock" thread, if there ever was one. There was also a big blooze scene when I was a teen which I found completely repulsive. Roomful of Blues at the Shaboo in Willimantic! Barf! Emo makes much more sense.

Was there really a riot at a Dave Matthews concert in CT? Awesome!

― Arthur, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

*rolls eyes* Reread what I wrote - I didn't say all non-NYers are hicks, I pointed out that I felt people who thought NYers were rude tended to be from hick towns, people who are easily lost and always in each other's business if they even talk to their neighbors at all - I've yet to meet anyone from a big city who felt the NY stereotype to be true, because they understand city life.

And having lived in a redneck asshole town - no, people in hick towns do NOT help each other as much as NYers do. It's just simply untrue.

And you are coming here again why, NS?

― Ally, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Yeah, okay "tend to be from hick towns". That's much better. Point is, NY is hick-free, right? Let me point something out: NY is full of some of the stupidest motherfuckers on the planet because the schools are terrible. But, these stupid motherfuckers STILL think of anywhere else as a "hick town".

Being defensive isn't some great thing and neither is "street smarts." I'd rather be in a "hick town" where people aren't so jumpy and "defensive" (I would also describe them as OFFENSIVE). Who is stupider, a relaxed guy or a stressed out "defensive" guy? Don't get me wrong, though. I like NY. I just don't like the whole "center of the world" thing that goes on in people's heads here. It's the "I'm better, me first" thing everywhere you go.

― Nude Spock, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Oh, and I was just pickin' on ya. I know you're not one of those people, right?

― Nude Spock, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Oh, I think it's clear she is one of those people... which is precisely why I like her!

― Sean, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Sean, you big NYer-asskissin' wannabe!!

― Nude Spock, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Wait a sec-- I gotta do this... ;-)
I said my peace, I fink. I don't want this to go back n' forth.

― Nude Spock, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Sean is lovely because he lives in SF. That's how it works, you know.

― Ally, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Experience of New York will be inevitably influenced by whether or not your building has air conditioning.

― dave q, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

And having lived in a redneck asshole town - no, people in hick towns do NOT help each other as much as NYers do. It's just simply untrue.

Ally's right about that. When I lived in Nebraska for five years, I was surprised to find how wary of strangers small-town people are. You're either "in the group" or you're not, and it's very difficult to get people to stop looking at you sideways. Certainly, living in a big city requires all sorts of skills in cooperation and trust - skills that are often taken for granted.

That said, what I did notice in Nebraska was that the cashiers and other service people were more upbeat. As a jaded city person, however, I can't say that's a good thing.

― Kerry, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

All right, so long as all other towns aren't considered "Nebraska".

― Nude Spock, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

HEY! How are you guys with the whole haggling thing? You know, I never realized it, but this even applies in big chain stores like The Wiz. When my friend was getting a digital camera, I stood right there as he said, "Nah, that's a bit high. I'll give you $350. That's the going rate on the net." The guy said, "Well, maybe you should get it from the net." and my friend said, "Alright" and turned to leave and the guy said, "Wa-wa-wait, let me get my manager." Anyway, he got it for $350. I have trouble doing it on the street. If it's too expensive, I just walk away because I get annoyed that the guy's waiting for me to haggle.

― Nude Spock, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

U will pay far too much for *anything* unless magic words "I can get this for [less] at J&R Music World" are intoned.

New York is, paradoxically, the most provincial city in the U.S -- rightest words yet, Nitsuh. But it's so easy to be provincial here. We want for nothing. And I am personally very addicted to the mash-up mix-up ethnic soundclash each and every day of my life here. Tho "which city's better" args are clearly yawnsome and akin to arguing about the dishes, I was thrown off my game 2 summers ago when I visited San Francisco. Everyone was WHITE!! It wuz like the Stepford Wives... Really unsettling. Not knowing anything about it I'd almost rather live in Oakland.

― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I'd agree with you if you had said "everyone's white or Asian", since there is a huge Asian population here. Not many blacks, 'tis true.

BTW, The Stepford Wives was filmed in part in my boyhood hometown of Darien, Ct.

― Sean, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

To add to the matter further -- every time I've been in SF recently, I see a fair amount of African-American folks, and indeed usually the bus lines I'm on go through areas of town where they seem to be the majority population (don't ask me to name specific locales, that I don't recall). So go figure, but all white it certainly is not.

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

All that my SF story proves is who I was hanging out with, I know. Maybe the fact that white friends immediately put me into Bleach City frightened me.

― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I've been here for a year, and it kicks booty. The stereotype that New Yorkers are mean and nasty: Dud. And thats coming from a midwesterner.

― bnw, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I was thrown off my game 2 summers ago when I visited San Francisco. Everyone was WHITE!! It wuz like the Stepford Wives... Really unsettling. Not knowing anything about it I'd almost rather live in Oakland.

Well, 2 summers ago SF was in the midst of dot-communism, and was completely unbearable. It's a pretty segregated city, with Chinatown, hispanic areas, black areas, gay areas, but it's also really small, so you can go from one area to another pretty quickly (not unlike Boston, really). Oakland IS a lot better place as far as I'm concerned; but I'd rather live in Sacramento than SF. There's nothing functional about SF's "charms"; most of the place feels more like a museum than a city.

― Kris, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I return to New York from four months in Tokyo next Tuesday. As someone who sees a lot of cities because of my work, I'd rank my favourites like this:

3. Berlin

2. New York

1. Tokyo

Compared with the neon glow of Shinjuku, Times Square looks positively antique. There are no cafes in New York quite as fantastic as Tokyo cafes, the cinemas and record stores in Tokyo display much more interesting stuff, magazines are better, the youth here is better educated visually, the girls are to die for. It's safe, and the Pacific Ocean (with both surfing and temples) is 45 minutes away at Kamakura. It's like SF and New York combined.

Where New York trumps Tokyo is the art world.

― Momus, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

when we talk about NY, we are talking about more than just point A to point B in Manhattan, right? If you spend your entire life in manhattan, it's pretty easy to grin and bare all the subway sardine sandwiches and the rudeness of people trying to get ahead of you for a while... but, if you're in NY for 5 to 10 years, it becomes more obvious that people really are angry and stressed. You will find yourself being one of the rude people and every now and then a little surprised. You can't visit NY or judge it on any less than 5 years, I'd say, especially if you're only cubbyholing yourself in a tiny section of it.

― Nude Spock, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

It's obvious to me that people are angry and stressed EVERYWHERE, what's the difference between everywhere else and NY? Why are you making this huge distinction? Everyone is rude now and again for some reason, even the most polite fucker, and it don't matter if you live in Shitehole, Nebraska or Tokyo or the Bronx. It's just human nature to snap every once and a while.

I mean, if you want proof, count the number of New Yorkers on the board versus the number of everywhere-elsers on the board, and note that there really isn't a huge stress/annoyance/happiness differential between the varied groups.

For the record, the entirety of New York City, not just glamourous Manhattan, is classic.

― Ally, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

You think people in NY are angry and stressed? Have you been to London or Paris recently? What about Tel Aviv?

New York is tranquility itself. The traffic is stately and placid compared to London's (is it fear of lawsuits? Why are US drivers so mandrax-calm?) and Tokyo's subway sardines make New York's look like business class. New Yorkers possibly get more upset because of their different sense of personal space ('If you can read my Times, you're too close...')

― Momus, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

No they're not! I know people and have had leisurely vacations (yes, I know, it's only a few weeks) in San Diego, Las Vegas, San Francisco, Austin, Portland, Seattle and I lived in and around CT and upstate NY for about 5 years before I moved to the city. People aren't as stressed, rude or donwright confrontational in ANY of these places. It probably has to do with the fact that NY is more crowded than it's ever been and people seem to always be getting in your way every moment of every day?? Put rats in a tiny cage and they turn on each other, ya know.

And, Momus, I didn't realize this thread was called NYC vs. Tel Aviv.

― Nude Spock, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Oh, so Momus makes a valid point (for once ;), and you're all stroppy about it? Nice.

Let's see the inherent contradiction in your statement: you first make a big deal about how you can't judge NYC on "less than 5 years" (I assume in response to the posters who have said they've only lived here for a three years or less), then pointed out that because someone had a nice vacation in another city of a few weeks, it proves people are less stressed or angry or rude in those places? Riiiiight.

None of my friends had negative, stressful vacations in NYC. Two of them moved here based entirely on week-long vacations that were so great they decided this was the place to be.

― Ally, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I was aware of the contradictions, Ally. That's why I pointed them out! I just happen to know people who live HERE that are from THOSE places who have talked in depth about this difference in behavior. That's how I took my vacations; with people who lived in these places at some point. And, Momus didn't really make a point. Maybe all overcrowded cities are simply DUD, eh? Also, I wasn't making a classic or dud evaluation of these places I've vacationed, merely noticing in San Fran or Austin, for instance, how people are civil to pedestrians and people who work at burger joints don't appear angry or depressed, people don't bump your shoulder on the sidewalk and people don't stagger around crazily talking to themselves, people move slower and are less "defensive"... Get me? It's so different it's not funny. Yes, in a very small "hick town" I can see how people would be less friendly than NYers. Still, a hick town has about a billion fewer people, so that's much fewer unfriendly people to deal with, innit?

― Nude Spock, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

People are WAAAY less stressed in NYC than in London. London has roughly the same amount of people except it's about 3,000 times the geographical size and NOTHING works and NOBODY gives a shit, except to take it out on the next poor fucker they run into. The only people in London who aren't raging bags of spite are the ones who've completely given up hope.

― dave q, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Oh, and I was only talking to the guy who's been here for ONE year. Three years is pretty long, but it's still new, so you're blocking out anything negative. Although, I do know a guy that came here and had a breakdown after 6 months living in Manhattan.

― Nude Spock, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Hey, check out the new London, C or D thread and give your side o' the story!

― Nude Spock, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Well, Spock, I could as easily lay down some arbitrary law that if you haven't beamed down into at least ten major world cities in the last year, you aren't qualified to judge how New York measures up. But I'm not that rude! New York brings out the politeness in me, y'see. Have a nice day!

― Momus, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

'Taint a comparison, really, mah friend. It's simply an argument for the idea that the prevailing belief that "new yorkers are mean and rude" is more than just an old superstition. Don't worry, I know you're all cultured and sophisticated.

― Nude Spock, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I hate to say it, but I absolutely *dread* calling New York on business. Nearly every time I call I have a bad experience. And we're not talking underpaid receptionists, either - I mean small business owners who will profit directly from doing business with me. They're condescending and abrupt, and they act as if it's my fault they have to take time out of their busy day to actually sell something.

― Kerry, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I know we deal with vendors all over America and the prevailing attitude is that anyone outside of NY is a bumbling fuckhead. Seriously. People treat them like shit and always expect them to render services cheaper and cheaper, faster and faster. It's kinda like, "Hey, I'm from NY, I'll just get it done somewhere else!" And, sadly, it works.

― Nude Spock, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I think the rudeness thing is a ruse (and my taxi drivers were quite calm) -- I can buy the view from NYC of the rest of the world as hicksville, though. Bastards. ;-)

― Ned Raggett, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

It's pretty sad when a freakshow like NYC is what the rest of the world should aspire to be.

― Nude Spock, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

You're right, Spock, these beings are quite illogical. Life, but not as we know it.

― Momus, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

It's pretty sad when someone, faced with a pile of people telling him he's full of shit, can't knock off the hate. WHY are you moving to NYC again? Is it an attempt to up the jerkiness quotient to prove yourself right or do you have an actual reason to move to place where, apparently, everyone is nasty, obnoxious, psychopathic, and trying to screw you over?

― Ally, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

New York subways: DUD
Tokyo subways: CLASSIC.
But Osaka stills beats them both. People are much friendlier and louder (also in the way they dress).

― nathalie, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

It's not hate and I'm not MOVING here, I LIVE here. It's not jerkiness and it's not bullshit. It's just what it's like. Be a widdle more defensive why don't ya? NY is obviously a freakish environment. That's all.

― Nude Spock, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Quite frankly, I think the only person who fits the awful, derogatory NY stereotype around here is you. Is it too close to home or something?

Is it true that subways in Japan have people to shove you into the trains?

― Ally, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I haven't come across'em. I think I am just too much a freak so they all run away when they see me. hah! Just kidding. Japanese do have a knack at waking up at the station they need to get off.

― nathalie, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

How so, Ally? Am I being "negative"? Read my post in the Buttfuck, Nebraska thread. I think you're just a typical NYer, after all, unable or unwilling to see it's faults. You simply want it to be "the fucking best". New York: classic. New York Classic attitude (when asked about NY problems): "Ah, yeah, but you get that everywhere... you still can't beat New York"

― Nude Spock, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I am a native of SF (well since I was nine), and I now find it cliquish and a very backroom scene. Either your in or out. There are alot of cowboys from Omaha that came in for the dot-com twitch and are now night managers at hotels. They're all very cool, all the clubs are very cool, everyone dressed to the current styles...YAWN, NYC rules! I was there the first week of August, it was very humid but I got used to it, I found people very helpful if you asked. I am encouraged by Ally's posts that I could find reasonable rent there. The scene there felt more inclusive. When people come to hear music or see art, it is that that they're there for, it seemed. Not just to be seen as it feels to me in Cali these days.

― jameslucas, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

NYC is weird. It's like everybody's great friends when they're out, but everyone's too busy to do a lot of "friend-stuff" unless you happen to live within a few blocks. It's pretty cliquey here, too. But, yeah, when you go out, people aren't all about EXcluding you. The youth scene is about getting drunk, laid and having fun. To be harsh just makes people not want to hang with you. If you go to the same clubs, your bound to make barfly friends... or starbuck's friends! Most NYC hanging out (seeing bands and such) seems to get planned through EMAIL and INTERNET, actually! (from what I've noticed in the last year).

― Nude Spock, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

James, when I lived in SF some years back I was the night-manager of a hotel. Greatest job I ever had, real kid-in-a-candy-store stuff if sex'n'drugs are your thing and you're not too discriminating.

― dave q, Saturday, 1 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Skipping 480 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

no joke, so excited to have these problems

― ENERGY FOOD (en i see kay), Friday, 6 May 2011 21:14 (twelve years ago) link

Well your first problem was being in Madison Square Park, obv.

"The best of everything" is an illusion, too.

― Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel), Friday, 6 May 2011 21:14 (twelve years ago) link

Sorry, I don't mean to be deny-y of your problems! But like, they don't need to be problems except in the situation of specific expectations that are far from universal.

Also trying to brunch in somewhere like Grammercy-area and finding lines is like being mad that you can't drive through Times Square without having to wait for tourists to cross the street. I'm not in New York to drive through Times Sq and I'm not in NY to brunch with yuppies who pay $6000 a month in rent and patronize their upscale local restaurants accordingly.

― Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel), Friday, 6 May 2011 21:18 (twelve years ago) link

I guess I just see huge parts of what people write about and talk about and desire as "the best" as being Not For Me (Or My Kind). I don't go there, I don't know about them, and I never expect to do either. I know this isn't true, it's just my perspective, but also I'm busy as it is and not exactly running out of places to go so it doesn't feel like a loss or anything.

Also, wanting to participate in things that are way beyond my financial reach or just not how I live is a really bad idea for me, because it results in such frantic unhappiness and such a horrible feeling of being shut out or left behind or perpetually failing/under-achieving compared to hypothetical others. It's much better for me to narrow my focus and be content with my lot.

― Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel), Friday, 6 May 2011 21:27 (twelve years ago) link

What is the name of this place that is supposed to be the best brunch in NYC?

Imna go neg thier yelp so next time the line isnt so long for u

― Aerosol, Friday, 6 May 2011 21:31 (twelve years ago) link

Also, everything is so damn dirty. How do New Yorkers hold on to railings in the subway then molest pizza slices before eating them without a thought? Every little thing is caked with exhaust-grime.

Venting cause I come from a wooded area so I usually miss the fresh air.

― Wacky Way Lounge (Evan), Friday, 6 May 2011 21:33 (twelve years ago) link

Anyway, back to being upset about the city having too many people.

― Wacky Way Lounge (Evan), Friday, 6 May 2011 21:35 (twelve years ago) link

settling for mediocre halal is still better than settling for taco bell or a frozen dinner from the supermarket imo.

― one dis leads to another (ian), Friday, 6 May 2011 21:40 (twelve years ago) link

Is it? Who has higher standards?

― Wacky Way Lounge (Evan), Friday, 6 May 2011 21:43 (twelve years ago) link

Actually Taco Bell in NYC is probably the lowest you can get.

― Wacky Way Lounge (Evan), Friday, 6 May 2011 21:43 (twelve years ago) link

I will wait in long lines if I have someone to talk to, RARELY... otherwise, fuhgeddabout it. I have a MoMA membership and go in the galleries about 3x a year. Too fucking crowded, ALWAYS. (they have members-only previews, which I never go to for unknown reasons)

ian, wanna go to late 1920s vaudeville shorts at the FF Monday night? (or anyone else)

http://www.filmforum.org/films/vitaphone/PDF1VitaNotes.pdf

― resistance does not require a firearm (Dr Morbius), Friday, 6 May 2011 21:44 (twelve years ago) link

Honestly I am just grouchy -- in finals and had my job offer pulled away last minute for economic reasons. I normally don't make these kind of complaints and happily just go to the seventeenth best brunch or whatever.

― bin caught laden (Hurting 2), Friday, 6 May 2011 21:45 (twelve years ago) link

Plus my neighborhood still has a relatively nice balance where you can go to really good places that AREN'T always insanely jammed, with the exception of maybe Frankies Spuntino which I haven't been able to get a reasonable wait time for yet. Also Lucali is crazy, but if you show up before they open you don't wait so long.

― bin caught laden (Hurting 2), Friday, 6 May 2011 21:47 (twelve years ago) link

I think long lines that are not equivalent to the payoff are pretty endemic of every big city!

― a board in which there is lively and fuiud debate? (dayo), Friday, 6 May 2011 23:42 (twelve years ago) link

settling for mediocre halal is still better than settling for taco bell or a frozen dinner from the supermarket imo.

― one dis leads to another (ian), Friday, May 6, 2011 5:40 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Not even a truth bomb; just fact

― Elegant Bitch (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Friday, 6 May 2011 23:55 (twelve years ago) link

the solution is just not to eat in manhattan unless you have to

― iatee, Saturday, 7 May 2011 00:06 (twelve years ago) link

Don't eat in Manhattan - brunch at least. Below 110th.

People in Brooklyn get to spend less, and avoid Euro-handbags. And there are actual food people cooking.

― paulhw, Saturday, 7 May 2011 03:41 (twelve years ago) link

four years pass...

searchable old photos of NYC from the library archives

you're welcome

http://www.oldnyc.org/

― the increasing costive borborygmi (Dr Morbius), Friday, 22 May 2015 19:15 (eight years ago) link

one year passes...

ah yes i remember it well

http://gothamist.com/2016/07/13/nyc_1976_in_8mm.php

― helpless before THRILLARY (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 13 July 2016 22:02 (seven years ago) link

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.