Buddhism

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I don't know about evil Buddhism, but the Tibetan tradition of Chöd encounters some of the dark stuff with a willing spirit:

http://www.dharmafellowship.org/library/essays/chod.htm

― moley, Monday, 14 May 2007 10:22 (sixteen years ago) link

...incidentally, this tradition was founded by a woman - much rispek to our female butt kicking travellers on the path, because Chöd is hardcore.

― moley, Monday, 14 May 2007 10:24 (sixteen years ago) link

hobart paving: spokesperson for the core of buddhism.

ok first of all, for its first 200 hundred years buddhism was taught completely verbally, nothing was written down. then some things were written down, probably not everything. so it's impossible to say what was added on later or whatever. all of that, of course, is irrelevant, there have been many buddhas, not just one. there are many living today. that's the whole point - we are all simply recognizing our own buddha nature, our own potential buddhahood.

teachers will offer teachings that are appropriate and helpful to the students that they are teaching at a particular time and place. the zen koan tradition was certainly added on later, but does that make it fraudulent?

as for the common longing many westerners have to find simplicity in the dharma, that's fine, you could say the dharma is simple; you could say it's complex. if your motivation is to cultivate compassion and wisdom in order to alleviate the suffering of sentient beings - i doubt you'd care whether it was simple or complex. and certainly this distinction will be totally lost when rock meet bone and you are left without defense or distraction to confront your own confusion.

there are many zen students who after years of practice have developed a nice warm feeling towards walking slow and eating tofu. likewise there are many from the tibetan tradition who are crazy religious fanatics. as i mentioned upthread, it's not the means - clean simple lines and upright posture or deity visualization - that make something buddhist, it's the view and motivation. which, of course, zen and tantric buddhism share.

hobart, your faux-historical reading of the origins of tantric dharma is so ignorant and mean-spirited as to be completely unconscionable, particularly coming from someone who considers himself to be some sort of buddhist practitioner, particularly in a setting where there are people who are curious about the dharma.

― jhøshea, Monday, 14 May 2007 14:21 (sixteen years ago) link

goodness me!

you don't think your response is a little mean-spirited? I do feel rather like I've been attacked and then lectured on Buddhism. I'm not really interested in a more-Buddhist-than-thou conversation, but I'd consider that someone who claims the knowledge and compassion that you appear to be claiming might have answered my post with a little more compassion, or at least offered a more gentle challenge rather than an outright condemnation.

Looking back at my post, it is rather cynical, and I regret that. I didn't mean to suggest that any one aspect of the religion is somehow less "real" than another, which is perhaps what I did.

I'm aware of how Buddhism was taught, and that there is no universally accepted core. Trying to take a step back from this, and answer your post objectively, rather than in the angry manner it seems designed to provoke, my attempt to suggest my own perspective as some sort of core is actually rather offensive. However, I wasn't suggesting my truth as the only truth, "I've heard it said" doesn't imply that I know the answers to life, the universe and everything.

I DO think simplicity is important here. Although obviously any attempt to impose such a label is less than perfect, and there can be tremendous complexity within that simplicity. It IS my opinion that some aspects of Buddhism have been made needlessly complicated, or even inaccessible. This would not be unique to Buddhism, but would be true of many religions, and I believe that, in some aspects, this has been done for power-related reasons.

Okay, your post offers some room for reflection, and I'm going to try and be thankful for that, rather than react in the manner you might be expecting, and possibly wanting. I don't have time or energy to get into an argument with you over this, on this subject of all things. I regret that what I said gave offence, and was insensitive. I acknowledge your objections. Thank you for the lesson.

Yours
"some sort of Buddhist practitioner"

Actually, I quite like that.

― hobart paving, Monday, 14 May 2007 19:39 (sixteen years ago) link

By the way, in the extremely unlikely event that I've PUT ANYONE OFF BEING A BUDDHIST NO WAIT, COME BACK, ITS NICE REALLY!!!

But I don't suppose I have - do you?

― hobart paving, Monday, 14 May 2007 19:40 (sixteen years ago) link

well i'll leave it up to you to decide whether my response was intended to provoke anger or motivated by compassion or whatever. your implication that straight forward communication must naturally be based in aggression seemed a little questionable - not that i would hold myself up to be any sort of paragon of compassion or anything. i'm sure anything i say will be tinged with all sorts of confusion and your post most definitely did piss me off.

still, i wasn't trying to pick a fight, just attempting an honest uncouched response - really it was, from my point of view, a simple refutation of your ridiculous assertion that tantric buddhism was the creation of power mad brahmins - which your I've heard it said disclaimer did little to soften. likewise, just because you doubt that your comments could possibly have any effect on anyone doesn't mean you should regard your speech as unimportant or inconsequential.

as for the oft employed complaint that tantric buddhism is too complex or symbolic or esoteric - these things are only true until you try to understand what it's talking about. once you have a basic understanding, the straightforward clarity of dzogchen language might be the simplest thing there is.

― jhøshea, Monday, 14 May 2007 20:37 (sixteen years ago) link

I'm unsure of how to answer you without sparking off further argument, and I genuinely don't have any interest in that. I did apologise for the manner of my post.

I do feel the need to answer a couple of your points. I made no assertion that straight forward communication must naturally be tinged in aggression, and find this rather a willful mis-reading of my post.

My feeling that you intended to provoke aggression was evoked more by the fact that, rather than engaging me on the matter in hand, you chose to personalise it, and to use terms such as "unconscionable", with all the implications that entails. Your response was "honest" in the same kind of way that punching me in the face might have been. Whilst that might be very honest, I'm not sure you could claim it was pacifist.

I have struggled with Buddhism, and with some Buddhists, over the years. That doesn't excuse the dismissal of certain aspects of it in my post which was, to some degree, slightly flip and off-the-cuff rather than as thought through as it should have been, in particular the dismissal of anything esoteric or complex. My personal experience has been that its easy to get lost in the esoteric, and lose sight of the bare bones, which is why, I suppose, I gave the response I did.

I don't believe tantric Buddhism was the creation of power-mad brahmins, to use your terminology. I DO feel, as I said earlier, that there should be a simplicity at the core of practice, which can easily be sidelined (again, from personal experience) by elements of the religion with more mystical overtones. I'm not sure whether you're actually arguing that Buddhism has never been used in the exercise of power, so I won't follow that argument any further.

I think its time I stepped back from this dialogue. I do genuinely regret giving offence, although I'm still a little angry at your response. I don't believe for a second, as you suggest I might, that my comments have no effect on people. I do believe that an off-the-cuff remark is unlikely to drive people away from Buddhism, particularly on a forum such as ILX where accepting a wide diversity of viewpoints is pretty much a given. What might be more likely to put people off is the sort of exchange we've just had, which doesn't reflect particularly well on us either as people or as representatives of a religion.

For what its worth, I am "some kind of pracitioner". If we were to get competitive about this (which would be some kind of irony in itself), I'm quite sure you'd be able to offer more knowledge of scripture and possibly more experience of practice - I've only been doing this for the past 5 years and have always "felt" it rather than read it - although that doesn't necessarily devalue my experience as I've always felt the things that mattered most to me, without necessarily grasping them intellectually, so I certainly don't claim to be any sort of expert. There are points you made upthread I'd like to engage with, but now really isn't the time.

Right, I'll read the rest of the thread with interest. Obviously, I acknowledge your right of response, but I feel that this conversation between us should be drawn to a conclusion, preferably an amicable one. So, with a bit more sincerity than last time, thank you for your response, and the thought provoked. Peace.

― hobart paving, Monday, 14 May 2007 21:26 (sixteen years ago) link

hmmm....hobart and jhoshea

“When two Zen Masters meet on the road, they need no introduction; thieves and rogues recognize one another immediately.”

Dharma Combat

― Bob Six, Monday, 14 May 2007 21:38 (sixteen years ago) link

love it.

Being a rogue would be fun. That's some motivation towards mastery.

― hobart paving, Monday, 14 May 2007 22:00 (sixteen years ago) link

alright, cheers hobart, my apologies for any unkind or inaccurate words. may the dharma continue to flourish here in the virtual plain text realm of ilx.

― jhøshea, Monday, 14 May 2007 22:13 (sixteen years ago) link

btw i've heard that kalu rinpoche story many times. not that it's not hilarious, it just always seemed, not so real. eh?

― jhøshea, Monday, 14 May 2007 22:14 (sixteen years ago) link

http://www.nndb.com/people/569/000087308/william-james-3-sized.jpg

SAME OCEAN DIFFERENT SHORES

PRACTICE SOME MAYAHANA COMPASSION

K THNX

― remy bean, Monday, 14 May 2007 22:15 (sixteen years ago) link

Anyway, moving on... I see Brad Warner, author of Hardcore Zen, has a new book out this month.

Does anyone have any views on him (or his music come to that)? I quite liked the Hardcore Zen book.

― Bob Six, Monday, 14 May 2007 22:19 (sixteen years ago) link

I like Watts' writing but I wouldn't really consider him an authority - d.t. suzuki perhaps a better starting point

― Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 14 May 2007 22:22 (sixteen years ago) link

I read "Zen Mind Beginners Mind" some years ago and was a little put off by (what I saw at the time as) a degree of esoterism. I suppose I should come back to it, though, with the same degree of open-mindedness with which I'm approaching the rest of this material.

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Monday, 14 May 2007 22:56 (sixteen years ago) link

A student said to the chief monk, "Help me to pacify my mind!"
The chief monk said, "Bring your mind over here and I will pacify it."
The student said, "But I don't know where my mind is!"
The monk replied, "Then I have already pacified it."
The student said, "Explain to me in detail what you have just done."
The chief monk was silent.
The student said, "Well?"
The monk hung his head, saying, "I tried to confuse you so that you would go away."

― Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 14 May 2007 23:00 (sixteen years ago) link

I didn't know there was such a thing as Evil Buddhism!

That story is GREAT, Shakey M.C.

― Abbott, Monday, 14 May 2007 23:08 (sixteen years ago) link

Hahaha xpost

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Monday, 14 May 2007 23:09 (sixteen years ago) link

remy are you just baiting me or what

― jhøshea, Monday, 14 May 2007 23:24 (sixteen years ago) link

I'd assume so, yes.

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Monday, 14 May 2007 23:27 (sixteen years ago) link

frankly, i just wanted to post a picture of william james.

― remy bean, Monday, 14 May 2007 23:44 (sixteen years ago) link

but don't get your shenpa in a bunch

― remy bean, Monday, 14 May 2007 23:44 (sixteen years ago) link

oh stop u r horrible

― jhøshea, Monday, 14 May 2007 23:49 (sixteen years ago) link

hee. funny time to check ilx again. i really got into buddhism via robert thurman. and perhaps pema chodron and cheri huber. they relate it to everyday life very well. especially for people who are depressed and stuck and think they're fucked up and find western ideas, psychotherapy, and saccharine concepts of self-esteem dead ends.

i guess i left ilx cuz it felt like it brought out some of my more neurotic tendencies (BIG HOOS revival post otm). sure a lot of people out there never think about what they're doing, but some people like me think way too much. over-analyzation as escape. lapping up every last morsel on a thought or feeling or subject. like overeating or drug addiction. but it never satisfies.

i never really think about dogmas or old stories or histories or levels of hell. buddhism to me is just about training your mind via meditation to not indulge in stupid things that keep you upset and stuck and depressed and aspiring to be present, smart, genuine, and kind. on that note i found 'train your mind, change your brain' by Sharon Begley interesting.

― lolita corpus, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 00:12 (sixteen years ago) link

Since Zen Buddhism has become a central topic of this thread, I will chime in quietly and share some of my few biases.

For westerners, reading about Zen is a good inital approach to buddhism, since Zen attempts to cut straight to the heart of the matter, without words, without teachings, like a finger pointing at the moon. This earthy quality appeals to westerners more often than the more fanciful and figurative language of the Pali Canon, or the Tibetan Book of the Dead. So, Zen makes a good baited hook to capture one's attention for buddhist thought.

There are many decent collections of writings on Zen in English. Alan Watts's Way of Zen is fine. Better would be Paul Reps's Zen Flesh, Zen Bones. For a more scholarly entry point D. T. Suzuki's essays are quite fine.

I would not recommend Kapleau's Three Pillars of Zen as one's first book. It is better for someone whose interest is strong enough that they wish to begin to practise, not just read. Zen is not Zen unless you can breathe Zen, eat Zen, walk Zen, blink Zen. You don't get there by just reading koans. You have to meditate. Sitting zazen happens to be a proved method for effective meditation. There are others. Whatever works.

Watts privately dismissed Kapleau as a dull and uninspired proponent of "sitting on your ass zen"

Meditation doesn't require sitting on your ass, but Alan Watts should have known better than this. Sitting zazen isn't just "sitting on your ass" by a long chalk. That's like calling tai-chi-chu'an "hopping from one foot to the other and waving your hands".

― Aimless, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 00:58 (sixteen years ago) link

yeah practice goes beyond reading, you don't really get much out of it beyond intellectual excercise if you don't engage in some form of meditation, which is the key act.

[url=[Removed Illegal Link] personal favorite zen writings[url]

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 02:06 (sixteen years ago) link

[url=[Removed Illegal Link] try that again: ladies and gennelman the collected wisdom of Layman P'ang[url]

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 02:07 (sixteen years ago) link

AARGHGHGHGHGHGH
http://www.amazon.com/Man-Zen-Recorded-Sayings-Inklings/dp/0834802589

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 02:07 (sixteen years ago) link

you don't really get much out of it beyond intellectual excercise if you don't engage in some form of meditation, which is the key act.

My residence in the boonies made the Kapleau book, with its various diagrams and specific instructions, pretty valuable in this regard. I live just a few minutes from a Zen Center these days, and I'm looking forward to in-person instruction.

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 02:59 (sixteen years ago) link

Everyday Zen: Love and Work and Nothing Special: Living Zen by Charlotte Joko Beck are great books about meditation and being an American Zen person.

I also like very much Zen and the Ways by Trevor Leggett, The Iron Cow of Zen by Albert Low, That's Funny, You Don't Look Buddhist by Sylvia Boorstein, and a bunch more that I've collected over the years. The one that has taught me the most, though, is the Japanese poetry anthology From the Country of Eight Islands. It's all right there for the taking.

― Dimension 5ive, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 03:48 (sixteen years ago) link

T/S: How long should one sit in zazen?

I haven't been to my Zen Center yet to ask in person and I can't find any books or online resources to advise me. I presume it's some sort of stunningly obvious/intuitive "you just know when you're done" kind of thing, but I'd like to do it properly.

In my practice I've been timing via the burning of a stick of incense, which I figure is as good and unobtrusive a method of timing as any.

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, 18 May 2007 03:12 (sixteen years ago) link

Once a horse and a cat had a discussion about what happiness is.
I hear that they could not reach a conclusion.
--Kodo Sawaki Roshi

xpost

― luriqua, Friday, 18 May 2007 03:18 (sixteen years ago) link

How long? Just long enough. Seriously, if you have a teacher, follow what they recommend. If you have no teacher, follow your heart. That's as close to the right answer as you could get.

The point of meditation is not to sit anyway, but to acquire the benefits of meditation (focus, balance, presence and so on) and to carry those into your life. Sitting just seems to be a good place to start.

― Aimless, Friday, 18 May 2007 17:15 (sixteen years ago) link

you don't have to sit to meditate even (although I've always found the idea of stuff like "walking meditation" inherently silly)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 18 May 2007 17:20 (sixteen years ago) link

http://www.drbackman.com/piriformis-standing-lgb.jpg

― Aimless, Friday, 18 May 2007 17:28 (sixteen years ago) link

I didn't know there was such a thing as Evil Buddhism!

-- Abbott, Monday, May 14, 2007 7:08 PM (3 days ago)

http://www.mugshots.com/IMAGES/P__Shoko-Asahara.jpg

― and what, Friday, 18 May 2007 17:31 (sixteen years ago) link

arhg no!

― jhøshea, Friday, 18 May 2007 17:55 (sixteen years ago) link

Aum Shinrikyo's Buddhist credentials are debatable. They cobbled together stuff from a bunch of disciplines (including Buddhism, Hinduism, and Christianity)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 18 May 2007 18:00 (sixteen years ago) link

i thought that was damo suzuki!

― daria-g, Friday, 18 May 2007 20:31 (sixteen years ago) link

that would be an interesting twist

― jhøshea, Friday, 18 May 2007 20:40 (sixteen years ago) link

two weeks pass...

I see that Bob Six asked about Brad Warner upthread: I picked up Warner's new book yesterday. I'm learning from it, and I must say it's VERY refreshing and eye-opening (having only been familiar with Kapleau, Watts & "the two Suzukis") to read someone whose metaphors illuminate a point for me rather than disguise it. I've always had a level of difficulty with the naturalistic metaphors born of a monastery-dweller's mind, but Warner's reference points are accessible and clear.

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Monday, 4 June 2007 00:49 (sixteen years ago) link

i went to a temple with my mum and a friend. i am very much non-spiritual (and atheist) but i started crying when they were praying ( is that how you call it)? really weird.

― stevienixed, Monday, 4 June 2007 00:52 (sixteen years ago) link

You can be Athiest, Buddhist, and spiritual too.

― humansuit, Monday, 4 June 2007 01:10 (sixteen years ago) link

i thought pregnant ladies cried basically all the time, though

― river wolf, Monday, 4 June 2007 01:18 (sixteen years ago) link

Sometimes they don't. When they're beating on you.

― humansuit, Monday, 4 June 2007 01:20 (sixteen years ago) link

KASUNG REPRESENT

― HPSCHD, Monday, 4 June 2007 01:49 (sixteen years ago) link

humansuit otm both times

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Monday, 4 June 2007 02:03 (sixteen years ago) link

anyone ever tried the kind of buddhism where you chant out loud? whats that called?

― artdamages, Monday, 4 June 2007 02:06 (sixteen years ago) link

chantric buddhism

― latebloomer, Monday, 4 June 2007 02:52 (sixteen years ago) link

thanks, i'll be here all night. and in the next life.

― latebloomer, Monday, 4 June 2007 02:52 (sixteen years ago) link

Skipping 758 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

There is some dancind and tiptoing around that I have never even gotten near to so I don't have much to say.

― Cry for a Shadowgraph (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 27 January 2023 23:01 (one year ago) link

Dancind and tiptoing = the Buddha's reindeer.

― Shard-borne Beatles with their drowsy hums (Chinaski), Friday, 27 January 2023 23:04 (one year ago) link

Hahaha!

― Cry for a Shadowgraph (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 27 January 2023 23:04 (one year ago) link

But do you recall
The greatest bodhisattva of all?

― Cry for a Shadowgraph (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 27 January 2023 23:05 (one year ago) link

lol

― Shard-borne Beatles with their drowsy hums (Chinaski), Friday, 27 January 2023 23:08 (one year ago) link

this dude seems pretty hardcore:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9W4SUepWOQ

― Andy the Grasshopper, Friday, 27 January 2023 23:21 (one year ago) link

it's one path, but it's not a requirement

― more difficult than I look (Aimless), Friday, 27 January 2023 23:27 (one year ago) link

A few years ago I read this book with the perhaps cheesy title of Without Buddha I Could Not Be a Christian, by Paul F. Knitter. One thing I remember about it is that he seemed to make an interesting argument for why certain things could be meaningful even if one did not believe in reincarnation or any kind of afterlife at all.

― Cry for a Shadowgraph (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 27 January 2023 23:33 (one year ago) link

I also came to the conclusion at some point that Aimless’s screenname was derived from Buddhism but I don’t know if he is cool with me saying that.

― Cry for a Shadowgraph (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 27 January 2023 23:36 (one year ago) link

my screen name's buddhist derivation is quite indirect and was mostly unconscious when it happened, but I've kept it over the decades largely to honor those hidden roots. it's ok to peg it to that.

― more difficult than I look (Aimless), Friday, 27 January 2023 23:42 (one year ago) link

Ever since 1978 or so I've had a hard time deciding whether I'm a bad taoist or an easily sidetracked buddhist, so I oscillate between them, depending on which is easiest to impersonate.

― more difficult than I look (Aimless), Friday, 27 January 2023 23:44 (one year ago) link

bad taoist = several old roommates of mine

Why wash the dishes piling up in the sink? Let the water flow around them

― Andy the Grasshopper, Friday, 27 January 2023 23:52 (one year ago) link

That reminds me the terrible book Zen Guitar ~~for Assholes~~ where the guy recommends doing everything “100%, all out, all the time” or something like that, including doing the dishes. Not realizing that maybe, just maybe such a white knuckle attitude might actually lead somebody to think “Right now I don’t really feel like I can the dishes 100% so I will postpone that task until I feel up to it” instead of some more, say, self-aware approaches to handling the task with minimum wear and tear on the psyche.

― Cry for a Shadowgraph (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 28 January 2023 00:27 (one year ago) link

"Reducing non-western culture to western paradigms - also dud" I've been wondering if the terms in English that are used to describe things like Duḥkha in the way intended or if they just make people think kof them in unintended ways.

You should totally check out this article by Carine Defoort:Is There Such A Thing As Chinese Philosophy?

Link is to a pdf file

― The field divisions are fastened with felicitations. (Deflatormouse), Saturday, 28 January 2023 02:59 (one year ago) link

Today’s Daily Dharma is apropos.
https://tricycle.org/magazine/special-transmission/

― The Big Candy-O (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 28 January 2023 13:03 (one year ago) link

I guess philosophy is philosophy and even that doesnt exist

― | (Latham Green), Saturday, 28 January 2023 17:44 (one year ago) link

thx for that link, from the chan/zen-zone

― normal AI yankovic (Hunt3r), Saturday, 28 January 2023 18:42 (one year ago) link

Sure. That was intense.

― The Big Candy-O (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 28 January 2023 18:52 (one year ago) link

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