I don't think the law/code absence made it exist, it's just such an interesting study in those things.
Nobody wants that place to exist in the US! I think people are in awe, but I have never heard of anyone advocating it as a model of anything other than a place that seems fictional but existed due to weird politics.
― valleys of your mind (mh), Monday, 5 March 2012 20:41 (twelve years ago) link
i want it to exist, in new hampshire
― max, Monday, 5 March 2012 20:42 (twelve years ago) link
well it's not really 'natural growth' as it's an ex-military fort, favelas are prob a better example.
― iatee, Monday, 5 March 2012 20:45 (twelve years ago) link
Then again, areas that require fewer building permits and less review in the US tend to have some really bizarre issues. I could totally picture the suburbs of the future having few government building codes, strong residential association codes, and absolutely horrible internal construction standards.
A coworker who's lived in pretty much the middle of nowhere explained once that his friend had briefly lived in a house with mediocre water pressure. The guy after him realized the main water shutoff valve in the basement wasn't all the way open, so he fixed it. Suddenly, he had a sopping wet wall upstairs between the living room and bathroom because some genius had run out of pipe and used garden hose to run water to the sink. Inside the wall. Coworker's friend was nearly sued, but he was able to point the finger to the house's original occupant...
― valleys of your mind (mh), Monday, 5 March 2012 20:46 (twelve years ago) link
okay mh but "Kowloon's walled city is/was such a great obsession because it's what happens when growth occurs unchecked by laws and building codes." seems to imply the opposite of what you said!
fwiw 'growth unchecked by laws/building codes' usually results in shantytowns which are not super-dense. hong kong is super-dense even when checked by laws and building codes, as I'm sure you're aware.
― flagp∞st (dayo), Monday, 5 March 2012 20:46 (twelve years ago) link
shantytowns are pretty dense!
― iatee, Monday, 5 March 2012 20:47 (twelve years ago) link
yeah but not kowloon walled city dense!
― flagp∞st (dayo), Monday, 5 March 2012 20:48 (twelve years ago) link
no but denser than like, san francisco
― iatee, Monday, 5 March 2012 20:48 (twelve years ago) link
the density that happens in hk only happens because growth happens vertically, not horizontally
― flagp∞st (dayo), Monday, 5 March 2012 20:49 (twelve years ago) link
yeah for sure, but that's not the only factor. like mumbai and kolkatta are denser iirc and not particularly 'tall' because people live 300 to a room.
― iatee, Monday, 5 March 2012 20:55 (twelve years ago) link
but yeah kowloon sorta was the best of both worlds, poverty and height
― iatee, Monday, 5 March 2012 20:56 (twelve years ago) link
india also has a billion people
I think HK's population density is under-calculated because the majority of land in HK is actually undeveloped, mountainous terrain. forget the exact number but I think something like only 10% of the total territory of HK is actually inhabited.
― flagp∞st (dayo), Monday, 5 March 2012 20:58 (twelve years ago) link
walled city was 3.25 million people per square mile. perfect density imo.
― iatee, Monday, 5 March 2012 20:59 (twelve years ago) link
By "of the future", you mean "1986", right?
― pplains, Monday, 5 March 2012 21:01 (twelve years ago) link
like the official density figure for HK as a whole is 16,000/mi^2 but I think that for the urban areas where people actually live, it's closer to the neighborhood of mong kok which is 340,000/mi^2* (and not particularly tall compared to most modern housing estates that have been built)
*holds the guinness world record for area w/ highest population density in the world
― flagp∞st (dayo), Monday, 5 March 2012 21:02 (twelve years ago) link
haha you are competitive about this. I'm trying to find a figure that adjusts for the green space.
― iatee, Monday, 5 March 2012 21:03 (twelve years ago) link
I want people itt to know that my opinion counts
― flagp∞st (dayo), Monday, 5 March 2012 21:05 (twelve years ago) link
okay I calculated it myself using the wikipedia numbers and the densities of the individual districts of hong kong:
12995.9433 sq/km...which is about twice the regular density. still less than mumbai's regular density tho.
― iatee, Monday, 5 March 2012 21:17 (twelve years ago) link
you have to remember there are like piles of 100s of poor people in mumbai, they don't need a skyscraper, they are like a human skyscraper
― iatee, Monday, 5 March 2012 21:18 (twelve years ago) link
oops it was actually 20,805.77913, I fucked up some cells.
― iatee, Monday, 5 March 2012 21:33 (twelve years ago) link
finally we're identifying some healthy density targets
― lou reed scott walker monks niagra (chinavision!), Monday, 5 March 2012 21:36 (twelve years ago) link
To be fair, part of the reason Kowloon walled city thrived where it did was that for a number of years local authorities didn't police it, and by the time they did it was pretty difficult to do so. I've seen numbers indicating that there were thousands of police raids, but really no day-to-day police action. Some of the people there were crowding into this area because it wasn't regulated -- hence all the dentists and organized crime.
― valleys of your mind (mh), Monday, 5 March 2012 21:37 (twelve years ago) link
― iatee, Monday, March 5, 2012 4:33 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark
HK would def make this list then
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_proper_by_population_density
― flagp∞st (dayo), Monday, 5 March 2012 21:38 (twelve years ago) link
― valleys of your mind (mh), Monday, March 5, 2012 4:37 PM (49 seconds ago) Bookmark
this is all true, but by far the biggest reason was the population pressure of HK. absence of the rule of law doesn't by itself lead to the most densely populated area in recorded human history, it would just lead to a shantytown.
― flagp∞st (dayo), Monday, 5 March 2012 21:42 (twelve years ago) link
yeah those examples in france are basically just neighborhoods in paris and paris' perceived density is lower than hk so xp
― iatee, Monday, 5 March 2012 21:44 (twelve years ago) link
related: http://www.popsci.com/cars/article/2011-06/nevada-passes-driverless-car-legislation-paving-way-autonomous-autos― iatee, Monday, March 5, 2012 1:39 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
06/23/11 at 4:49 pm I personaly don't see the need for this because in the end all machines can be hacked,damaged,and be injected with a bad viris. this is just my opinion but if people actualy paid attention to the road and did not drink 5 pints of alchol and then decide to drive home, accidents like this would never happen. i feel the same way to the proposition of inserting machines in the body. instead we should be geneticaly enchced it will feel more natural and wont need a power system.
― simulation and similac (Hurting 2), Monday, 5 March 2012 21:53 (twelve years ago) link
otm
― flagp∞st (dayo), Monday, 5 March 2012 21:54 (twelve years ago) link
the man makes a solid point
― goole, Monday, 5 March 2012 21:55 (twelve years ago) link
There's a bunch of open space around where that was though, dayo! If it weren't for the bizarre lack of ownership or whatever, it would have spread horizontally as well as vertically.
― valleys of your mind (mh), Monday, 5 March 2012 21:56 (twelve years ago) link
right - but because of the historically unique circumstances it couldn't. so I"m not sure what point, if you have one at all good sir, you are trying to make.
― flagp∞st (dayo), Monday, 5 March 2012 21:58 (twelve years ago) link
I never said it was absence of rule of law by itself! Just that those were two factors. Sorry, I just kind of misread it as you taking me literally that it was just those two things. There were a shitload of things, I was just throwing out a couple that people fixate one
― valleys of your mind (mh), Monday, 5 March 2012 22:00 (twelve years ago) link
*on
― valleys of your mind (mh), Monday, 5 March 2012 22:01 (twelve years ago) link
oh I didn't see this in the times article kinda cool
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/images/newsgraphics/2012/0301-crowded/0304-web-CROWDED.png
― iatee, Tuesday, 6 March 2012 01:53 (twelve years ago) link
errr guess not
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/03/01/realestate/manhattans-population-density-past-and-present.html?ref=realestate
― iatee, Tuesday, 6 March 2012 01:54 (twelve years ago) link
lol la
― iatee, Tuesday, 6 March 2012 01:55 (twelve years ago) link
Matt Yglesias has a new e-book "The Rent Is Too Damn High" - I haven't read it but apparently he argues that building codes that prevent vertical growth in urban areas are harmful to the economy:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2012/03/06/the_rent_is_too_damn_high_available_today.html
― o. nate, Tuesday, 6 March 2012 18:34 (twelve years ago) link
yeah I prob won't read it cause duh but everything in the book is probably true
another pov: http://www.forbes.com/sites/markbergen/2012/03/05/the-stagnant-city-how-urban-politics-are-pushing-rents-up/
― iatee, Tuesday, 6 March 2012 18:40 (twelve years ago) link
more on that: http://www.forbes.com/sites/markbergen/2012/03/06/why-a-city-needs-a-nafta-and-a-nader/
― iatee, Tuesday, 6 March 2012 19:11 (twelve years ago) link
the breitbartians have gone to the review section, incidentally...
http://www.amazon.com/Rent-Too-Damn-High-ebook/product-reviews/B0078XGJXO/ref=cm_cr_pr_hist_1?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&filterBy=addOneStar
― goole, Tuesday, 6 March 2012 19:14 (twelve years ago) link
By Ben - See all my reviews This review is from: The Rent Is Too Damn High (Kindle Edition)
I'll be honest. I was completely blown away by all the male nudity in this book. I wasn't expecting 20 pages filled with naked pictures of the author in various poses. I found the photos that included animals to be in extremely poor taste.
― iatee, Tuesday, 6 March 2012 19:16 (twelve years ago) link
small-time (former?) big government contrib really goes in
1.0 out of 5 stars A boy should never forgive his cheating father, March 6, 2012By Morgan WarstlerThis review is from: The Rent Is Too Damn High (Kindle Edition)One has to forgive Matt for the circumstances that he grew up in.... as soon as he admits he is guilty. His father, Rafael Yglesias, was a serial cheater who documents in auto-biographical form how little respect he had for Matt's mom Margaret Joskow.
Growing up in that, needing to normalize and privately even "valorize" it, leads a young man's brain to create neural networks that make socialization antithetical to identity.
So we end up with a sociopath who covers his tracks with high-minded technocrat caring, whose policies and opinions lash out at any and all who'd look down their nose at his family life (ie the majority of rock ribbed Americans).
Forgiveness is a basic human trait, one that most world religions preach. But forgiveness comes after admission of true guilt.
Matt's life work to date is about trying to weaken the bonds of American values, because according to those values, he's not from high quality stock.
― goole, Tuesday, 6 March 2012 19:27 (twelve years ago) link
ugh
― horseshoe, Tuesday, 6 March 2012 19:29 (twelve years ago) link
what does "rock ribbed" mean?
― horseshoe, Tuesday, 6 March 2012 19:30 (twelve years ago) link
people who talk seriously about other people being from deficient "stock" are the creepiest people
― horseshoe, Tuesday, 6 March 2012 19:31 (twelve years ago) link
That Warstler guy is an idiot. He's a regular commenter on Scott Sumner's blog, where I quickly learned to ignore him.
― o. nate, Tuesday, 6 March 2012 19:42 (twelve years ago) link
for whatever reason yglesias seems to attract some of the top trolls working today
― iatee, Tuesday, 6 March 2012 19:42 (twelve years ago) link
i apparently still feel very cap'n save an yglesias all the time, even though i don't remember to read him much anymore
― horseshoe, Tuesday, 6 March 2012 19:42 (twelve years ago) link
Especially from people who insist the US is a meritocracy. bootstraps, etc.
If they believe both things, then their reaction to people from poor "stock" not being able to make it must be "sucks to be them," huh?
― valleys of your mind (mh), Tuesday, 6 March 2012 19:46 (twelve years ago) link
I sorta resent yglesias in the way that you resent people you meet who remind you of yourself but are a little more annoying. his worldview and my worldview have enough overlap that I don't really feel like I'm getting that much from reading him.
― iatee, Tuesday, 6 March 2012 20:09 (twelve years ago) link
You're setting yourself up there.
― marissa explains it all (The Reverend), Tuesday, 6 March 2012 22:00 (twelve years ago) link