Mad Men on AMC • Fifth Season Thread

I didn't see that as a rape scene at all.

i didn't mean rape, btw. in saying "rape-sex", i just meant sex that plays with force and refusal. she pretended to resist him, and he physically overpowered her resistance.

x-post couldn't see don killing someone, he's too repressed to ever get that angry or conspicuous.

that was my point. he'd never allow it to come to that, but if for whatever reason it did, it wouldn't ruffle him overmuch, except in the pragmatic "how do i deal with this problem?" sense.

just say dom/sub or something. "rape sex" isn't a kind of sex.

i dunno, i think he'd be horrified. he is not a violent person to me. i think he is fundamentally a good person, but struggling under the weight of some severe identity problems and mental problems, which the show has only scratched the surface of. i think it's why he's such a believable character, tons of people are like this and prob way moreso in that era, but it will be a major challenge if they ever try to unpick him more. i mean, even the viewers can't be too sure of what lies beneath with don.

just say dom/sub or something. "rape sex" isn't a kind of sex.

ookey, fair enuf. do think a fair number of folks like to play at exactly that sort of thing, though this wasn't an example.

i feel this push and pull as to whether or not to try to understand "fifth season don draper" in terms of what "first season don draper," etc. experienced and did. you could argue that one of the nice things about television is that characters have these long histories that could be brought to bear (in the show itself or in viewers' imaginations) in terms of understanding their actions in recent episodes. and certainly mad men makes use of that. (though i'm not always sure how often we are actually being consciously cued to recall a particular interaction from several seasons ago vs. we choose as an audience to recall that interaction in the process of trying to understand/anticipate the current episode/season.)

but at the same time both creators and audiences don't generally have long, very accurate memories and it's equally true that the don draper character we watch in this season is not, and doesn't have to be, the same don draper as we watched in earlier seasons. his character has changed not just because of some implied or explicitly stated process of internal development, but because the interests of the writers, the contours of the drama, and in some sense the demands/needs of the audience have demanded that change. in other words the shifts in don draper's character--the seeming inconsistencies--don't have to "code" as realistic because TV drama is not a fundamentally realistic form. we don't engage with it exactly or even nearly as we would with a person IRL, even if there are inevitable, useful, and innneresting ways that the two types of engagement overlap.

all this to say that there are two, not necessarily incompatible options:

A) the apparent shift in the way don relates to the world that transpires over the course of (and between) seasons can be explained "realistically," as the kind of drift and complexity that "normal" humans can be said to undergo/have in the context of this ever changing world in which we live in.

B) the shift cannot really be explained realistically, but we go with it (or not) b/c we enjoy (or don't) the way the drama in its present form engages us.

i think that the artistic prestige that's conferred upon people like matt weiner makes it somewhat necessary for them to explain things in terms of (A) (since "artistic quality" is traditionally cast in terms of formal coherence/consistency and indeed consistency of authorial vision). and much of the audience is likely to go along with that. but i think it's just as likely that (B) is what's happening. it's interesting how more "low-brow" shows will actually make these shifts more baldly ("yeah, we got rid of that character because audiences hated her"/"we decided to make john more likable this season") because they are under less (internal and external) pressure to provide high-minded justifications for their artistic choices.

anyhow.

many xposts to *tera: I have a vague hope that Megan is the new hot-chick with the crazy eyes, who eventually burns down Sterling Cooper or runs down Betty Draper in a car or something.

I doubt it. She's too mild and it's not like her emotional fluctuations last episode were any big woop given what a PIA Don Draper is on a day to day basis, but still. I can dream.

i dunno, i think he'd be horrified. he is not a violent person to me

I remember him being pretty unpleasantly physical to Bobbie Barrett that time in the restaurant. Like, he didn't just put his hand where it didn't belong, he hurt her. I could see him doing major damage to someone if he had to.

and only Don Draper would have an awesome party in an amazing apartment and be all hate parties lemme eat worms I hate u

Maybe now when I tell ppl i hate birthdays they will just think i'm sexy.

i think he is fundamentally a good person, but struggling under the weight of some severe identity problems and mental problems, which the show has only scratched the surface of.

agree that he's not violent by nature, but this doesn't mean that he lacks the capacity. i do think that don's fundamental identity is very much in question, though. he's shown signs of decency and concern for his fellow man, but also of a kind of creepily adaptable moral vacancy. agree, too, that this isn't terribly unusual, that if don really is a "low level sociopath", then an awful lot of people share the affliction.

it's interesting how more "low-brow" shows will actually make these shifts more baldly ("yeah, we got rid of that character because audiences hated her"/"we decided to make john more likable this season") because they are under less (internal and external) pressure to provide high-minded justifications for their artistic choices.

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, March 27, 2012 3:26 PM (4 minutes ago)

for ex, the distinct nicening of steve carell's michael scott after the first season of the american version of the office. no explanation needed or given.

wrt Don/Peggy, I don't think it really humanized Peggy to him overall

yeah I think this is debatable. what that episode really did was humanize Don for PEGGY. Don spends most of the episode treating her like shit/being a complete asshole, then breaks down, cries, passes out in her lap. Wakes up, tells her to go home, then gets back to work like nothing happened.

actually I had horrible flashbacks to highschool with Don's I Hate Birthdays steez -- I called my friend to wish her a happy birthday and she hung up on me, and wouldn't answer the phone when I tried to call back. I got mad at her the next day, and she was all HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU PEOPLE THAT I HATE BIRTHDAYS FOR YOU TO STOP MAKING A BIG DEAL OUT OF MY BIRTHDAY
and I felt really terrible.

didn't lead to any dom-sexytimes resolution though :/

people who regularly make a super big deal out of HATING STUFF, entirely refusing to engage on any positive level w the HATED THING, and making sure that other people are at all time 100% fully aware of the INTENSE HATE are just the worst

i hate them

At first I was like, yes but we like you and we like that you were born! don't u see?
she didn't see.

The signs were there for Megan to see, though. His children bought him a nice, low-key present and said happy birthday and he was fine with that and not at all insistent on any kind of celebration (beyong going out for cheesecake in lieu of birthday cake), and Peggy warned Megan that he wouldn't like the party. It was her own fault.

Roger ruining the surprise was awes

just have his little line about "pranks" or whatever to acknowledge that it had happened

Nah – when Pete had his giraffe secretary put the fake meeting down I was shouting “c’mon make it believable, Roger’s not THAT dumb” – if they hadn’t shown Roger getting up, then the “prank” line would have read like him smacking Pete for so clumsily trying to pwn him, not him wryly acknowledging “ok Campbell you win this one, quality pwning lil homie”

Also I very much liked that it showed that the harsh punishment consisted of making Roger get up at the same time one day that Pete has to every day, to commute in from his hated suburban lovenest.

I remember him being pretty unpleasantly physical to Bobbie Barrett that time in the restaurant. Like, he didn't just put his hand where it didn't belong, he hurt her. I could see him doing major damage to someone if he had to.

No way, Bobbie was mega into it, not in pain.

I assumed Roger just wouldn't bother cos it was at 6am

“c’mon make it believable, Roger’s not THAT dumb”

i dunno. he obviously once had hella game, but his brain's been pickling for years.

last year i was living in NYC and commuting to Greenwich, CT every day for work. i drove, which was bad enough (~hour commute if traffic was heavy), but ten or twenty times i had to take the train, and even with 2012 trains + scheduling (lulz, this is public transportation we're talking about - trains - probably the same exact technology as in the 60s tbh) it could be a grueling 2+ hour trip door to door.

i think the fact that pete obviously pines to be living in the city again makes him much more sympathetic

also there is really this sense with successful people (admen, doctors, lawyers, etc.) that moving to the 'burbs is somehow something that just _has_ to happen, esp. once you have a child. so many folks i know insisted that they would stay in the city and then, sure enough, moved to winnetka or whatever as soon as they started having (or planning) children. there must be some very real pressure to do this (spoken or most likely unspoken). it adds a ton of hassle in terms of commute and having the mortgage hanging over your head means you can't take a step off of the treadmill.

really missing betty in this episode - she's the character with the most psychological depth. she's a vital hinge in the show and amazingly well acted by january jones. a lot of the characters are too "one note": i don't believe pete and i think the actor is particularly bad but it's probably not his fault that he's as bad as he is. i'm kinda surprised that they let it pass, though.

someone who loves betty and hates pete is watching a different show from me

I haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaate Betty

oh you can hate her but you can believe her. pete is just some thin pastiche and badly acted to boot.

rong
rong
rong

Pete is my new favorite character.

― *tera, Tuesday, March 27, 2012 10:11 PM (Yesterday)

Pretty much. I loved the scenes of him and his commuting buddies.

And yes, he's an excellent actor. Particularly in the last season (and this one too by the looks of things)

pete is the best.

i kinda feel like i totally understand pete. he's slimy and gross, but he's slimy and gross in a way that is incredibly relatable to me

betty is a cipher tbh

there is nothing badly acted about Pete

i think there's a fair bit of bad acting in the show though, it's not just pete.

i still like it.

there must be some very real pressure to do this (spoken or most likely unspoken).

Tbf, a lot of people do it b/c of a belief (real or imagined) in the superiority of the suburban schools. Although I suppose if you're well-off, you might also have the option of sending your kids to private school.

i kind of love betty, kind of hate her. i liked the character a great deal in the fist couple seasons, but after her break w don, i got the feeling that matthew weiner was working through some issues wr2 the way the character was written. she came to seem worse and worse as a person, which would be okay in general, but something in the way it was handled made me feel sympathetic towards what i viewed as "the real betty", as though we were only seeing her through the scrim of weiner's weird hostility.

She's well drawn but heart always sinks a bit when she comes on screen cos I know something depressing is likely to happen soon.

i would not be disappointed if january jones was never in another episode of mad men. i'm sure she'll be back next week tho :/

dunno if we'll see much at all of Betty this season what with January Jones having a kid and the character having little or no function in the show anymore

She was not very good at all in that X-Men flick.

Though I dunno if I blame Jones for that as it's really not her milieu

yeah, but she was horrible in that x-men flick

but she's awesome in mad man.

don't like Pete as a person, looooove Pete as a character and Kartheiser is a virtuoso at playing a huge range of delicate variances on his weaseliness and entitlement

can very happily see no more of Betty than that porch light all year

Betty is the poop in the punchbowl

she was good in The Three Burials of Melquiades Estrada but that role basically was Betty Draper by any other name

i think there's a problem of register in the show where some of the people are acting natural and others are acting like in the old movies.

the (older) secretary (the one who took the $50 off cooper to buy a hat) was awesome.