Artists that have used samplers as a creative compositional tool

Samples or samplers? You can make samples in multiple different ways, but if you're discounting tape loops then you must also be discounting vinyl drops and computer manipulation, yes?

The question's absurd imo. What does this even mean? "So not looping sections of music just to sing over, and not dropping random crap in everywhere to add colour." It's an utterly bogus distinction. A ton of acts use samplers "to create narrative".

ilm is mad stupid lately

"Artists that have used guitar, bass and drums as a compositional tool"

Somehow, the thread premise reminds me of this "classic" thread:

Hip Hop taken to new levels.

i couldn't make it through that thread

Tune-Yards

Amazing thread, the new levels one. "God, I seriously don't think i'll ever post here again. I get more useful responses out of users on average metal music boards- anbd that's saying a lot. Or maybe I'll just stick to more obscure shit in the future instead of bringing up some contentious topic that everyone has a pre-formulated opinion on." OK bye now.

How 'Jingle Bells' by the Singing Dogs Changed Music Forever

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hip-hop_DJ%27s_and_producers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Reich

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music

thanks so much for that link Abbott. So cool that the author of the Singing Dogs was a bird recordist! I even found an archive of some of his earliest recordings online here: http://sounds.bl.uk/Environment/Early-wildlife-recordings

Danish field recordist Carl Weismann was one of the pioneers of wildlife sound recording. His great passion was birds… and his great nemesis was dogs. Back in the 50’s, while attempting to recorded clear uninterrupted birdsong, he found his efforts continually hampered by the interjections of barking canines. As they would wouldn’t go away when the tape was rolling, he was forced to get around this by becoming a master at locating these barks on the recorded tape then cutting them out with a scalpel. This naturally left him with a whole library of snippets of recorded dog barks. Instead of throwing them out, Carl decided to have some fun with them.

http://eastereverywhere.tumblr.com/post/281678037/danish-field-recordist-carl-weismann-was-one-of

the person who started the thread should check out what is commonly referred to as "rap" music. lots of examples there.

sampling in rap is generally more editorial than compositional. i don't think the ability to create narratives is the distinction, though, because anyone who has made a mixtape is creating a narrative, and that's almost a purely editorial/curatorial endeavor.

lol what the fuck ever

rev otm

you guys don't think mixtapes tell a story?

wtf this thread

*places self in same category as Primo because that 1996 post-rock cassette I made for my bro had really nice transitions on it*

Grandmaster Flash
DJ Quik
Dust Brothers
Dr. Dre (I refer you to "We're All in the Same Gang" for "narrative")
Prince Paul
The Bomb Squad
etc etc

They fought the longest war in american history (x2)

In 1965 Vietnam seemed like just another foreign war,
but it wasn't.
It was different in many ways, as so were those that did the fighting.
In World War II the average age of the combat soldier was 26...
In Vietnam he was 19.
In inininininin Vietnam he was 19.

(TV announcer's voice)
The shooting and fighting of the past two weeks continued today
25 miles west of Saigon
I really wasn't sure what was going on (Vet's Voice)

Nininini Nineteen, 19, Ni-nineteen 19
19,19,19,19

In Vietnam the combat soldier typically served a twelve month tour of duty but
was exposed to hostile fire almost everyday
Ninininininininininin 19 nininininninin 19

Hundreds of Thousands of men who saw heavy combat in Vietnam were arrested
since discharge
Their arrest rate is almost twice that of non-veterans of the same age.
There are no accurate figures of how many of these men have been incarcerated.
But, a Veterans Administration study concludes that the greater of Vets
exposure to combat could more likely affect his chances of being arrested or
convicted.

This is one legacy of the Vietnam War

(Singing Girls)
All those who remember the war
They won't forget what they've seen..
Destruction of men in their prime
whose average was 19
Dedededededede-Destruction
Dedededededede-Destruction
War, War
Dededede-Destruction, wa-wa-War, wa-War, War
Dedededededede-Destruction
War, War

After World War II the Men came home together on troop ships, but the Vietnam
Vet often arrived home within 48 hours of jungle combat
Perhaps the most dramatic difference between World War II and Vietnam was
coming home.. .none of them received a hero's welcome
None of them received a heroes welcome, none of them, none of them
Nenene Nenene None of them, none of them, none of them (etc...)
None of them received a hero's welcome
None of them received a hero's welcome

According to a Veteran's Administration study
Half of the Vietnam combat veterans suffered from what Psychiatrists call
Post-Traumatic-Stress-Disorder
Many vets complain of alienation, rage, or guilt
Some succumb to suicidal thoughts
Eight to Ten years after coming home almost eight-hundred-thousand men are
still fighting the Vietnam War

(Singing Girls)
Dedededededede-Destruction

Nininininininininin Nineteen, 19, Ni-nineteen 19
19,19,19,19
Nininininininininin Nineteen, 19, Ni-nineteen 19
19,19,19,19

(Soldiers Voice)
When we came back it was different.. Everybody wants to know "How'd it
happened to those guys over there
There's gotta be something wrong somewhere
We did what we had to do
There's gotta be something wrong somewhere
People wanted us to be ashamed of what it made us
Dad had no idea what he went to fight and he is now
All we want to do is come home
All we want to do is come home
What did we do it for
All we want to do is come home
Was it worth it?

what no one's said My Bloody Valentine yet lol

thread made me remember this, well done thread

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqVJ1UpPIjI

"that 1996 post-rock cassette I made for my bro had really nice transitions on it*"

transitions speak more to technique than narrative. what was the tracklist on this cassette?

really?

I mean

really

I didn't know there were people who still thought this way tbh

track 1. the bartman

track 2-9: The Ethel Merman Disco Album

would buy

and why no amen break? totes a creative compositional tool. and what is the etc? other breaks?

you haven't heard etc etc's groundbreaking sampling of doorbell buzzers

i think using the amen break in full is more of an editorial choice than a compositional one. like picking out a piece of carrot cake at a buffet. to be compositional, you'd have to chop it beyond recognition, like mixing that carrot cake with froyo to make some kind of carrot cake smoothie.

You mean like 99% of dnb tracks ever?

if the original artist couldn't successfully sue you for swiping a drum break because you've chopped it beyond all recognition, I'd say you're safely in the compositional zone.

lol @ appealing to legal rulings

i prefer non-creative compositional tools

if there's anyone who knows about making aesthetic judgments, it's lawyers amirite

is this the part where we get to rehash the Englebert Humperdinck vs. Biz Markie

ODB used to stand for old dirty barrister

oh man that old thread, jeezus, memory lane right there:

James may just give up at once. If you are looking for good and actually musically sophisticated hip-hop, then that is not going to happen. And the responses in this thread show why. Hip-hop are doomed to stay shit forever, because the hip-hop audience has got this sick idea that musical sophistication is "white" (=bad).

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, November 17, 2003 8:49 PM (8 years ago)

"to be compositional, you'd have to chop it beyond recognition"

yeah, philip, uhhhhhh, never mind...

to be compositional, you'd have to chop it beyond recognition

But the Amen Break IS chopped; it's a tiny drum break that has been sped up, or slowed down, and recontextualized... and that, in my mind, is a creative compositional tool. I'm not understanding this whole thread.

still think this is one of nate's finest moments:

1) Original poster James picks misleading/provocative thread title and couches what would otherwise be a harmless inquiry about experimental rap in the dangerous area of "rap on the whole is stagnant and I want the newness".
2) The usual suspects mock this. Most of us are all "ok, fine, pfhsgh" because we're familiar with these posters. ddrake initially chimes in with "instruments in rap /= progressive" and gets little if any real hostility.
3) ddrake then mistakes "progressive/experimental" for "white", flings out a "you know that's what you really mean" equivalent ("admit it") and suddenly the tone of Typical ILM Prog-Rap Mockery gets a bit weird
4) Ned sez "because instruments are white! oh wait" and ddrake fires back "U R NOT OF TEH FUNNIE"
5) ddrake: "Seriously though, unless you actually know the hip hop history, which it sounds like you don't, I'd wait to listen to "prog" hip hop. " [emphasis mine]
6) A couple more joke posts, a couple geniune attempts to steer the thread into actual topical coherence ("Dalek?"), J0hn being all "Ned OTM"
7) dd: "Oh give me a break! Dilute, my friends, dilute!" Then he goes onto some snotty "prog is unfun" jibe.
8) Jokes jokes jokes. The nate that is not me says "The twisted part is that some people actually like challenging their brains."
9) dd: "Rush! Yes! Prog stupid! Also read it, motherfuckers!"
10) not me nate: "But Braxton/Cornel/Toni Morrison..."
11) Ned to o. nate: "ddrake will get mad at you now and claim you don't understand hip-hop. You are so burned. *cue ddrake: 'Ha ha, where is your sense of humor, dork, etc.'*"
12) "you're out of your league, donnie."
13) dd shortly later: "Blues People is a more incredible work than anything anyone on ILM has accomplished...a more important work as well. That I can't believe more of you haven't read." [here is where my arrogance alarm goes off.]
14) Ned sums up the crux of the issue: "Remind me again how you've assumed you know what everyone here has read/listened to/thought again? I missed the proof of your omniscience here."
15) Some stupid bullshit ensues
16) Wooster is namedropped
17) Accusations of privacy intrusions fly
18) The thread officially becomes ridiculous
19) Everyone tries to explain to ddrake why they're mad at him
20) ddrake gets mad defensive
21) I forgot to mention, blount has a field day
22) OWNED
23) A failed attempt to return to original discussion in the thread
24) ddrake: "So "whitening" in the case in which I am using it refers to the values inherent in the musicians' musical ideas. White CULTURE rather than white PEOPLE."
25) Oh no
26) nickalicious and scott seward simmer things down somewhat
27) Perry sums everything up neatly
28) Numerous thread-locking requests go out
29) Oh yeah, there's some stuff about Amiri Baraka in here too (c/o J0hn Darn1elle)
30) Someone named "Big Boi" stomps in, says "prog rap is shit!" only in much wordier terms, resorts to name-dropping the Strokes, then eventually disappears
31) "Ned and his ethugs" are mentioned
32) People start backtracking in an attempt to recap this thread
33) This goes on for a while
34) There is a delightful Popeye intermission
35) An ugly goulash of meta-spastic he-said-he-said "no no no I'M RIGHT I WIN" nonsense and arrogant written-in-stone declarations of what various genres TRULY AND REALLY ARE AND AREN'T, DAMN IT
36) This actually goes on for a while
37)
38) more pictures, which ddrake calls "unclever"
39) see #35
40) I post this
41) I feel dirty

― nate detritus (natedetritus)

dan, i wouldn't worry about it. its all crazytalk.

"But the Amen Break IS chopped; it's a tiny drum break that has been sped up, or slowed down, and recontextualized..."

those are hallmarks of editorials. composition tends to be less dependent on source material. if a song can retain its identity by removing the source material and applying the transformations to something else, that would also be another good test, though it really fails in the case where dr. dre goes out and hires session musicians to recreate the sample because he doesn't want to pay some licensing fee.

where do you get this nonsense

everything is dependent on source material, whether you're composing for brass or a drum machine or on a laptop

At the risk of raising further ire by trying to clarify, would it help if 'compositional' was replaced with 'performative'? While the mentioned in the thread indeed used samplers, couldn't most of the suggestions made be achieved through other means, eg with tape loops or turntables?

Would it sound as good, is the key question.

That David Dunn reminds me of another really awesome sound recording...doing my head in all morning. xp

geir should check this out. just a dude sitting down with a guitar:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzK2U8ljJ4A&feature=relmfu

and as far as sampled sound compositions go paul is my go to guy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRWbbWGeeuQ

think thats just layered tape though? later he uses computers. think the 80's stuff was all hundreds of hours of music layered into single pieces of holy hell. its actually not easy to get info on his methedology on the internet. i've looked in the past. someone go interview the guy, okay?

love paul dolden! he goes into detail about his method in the liner notes, and there was a Wire interview around 2005, but he basically scores the piece with sheet music, records each instrument independently, then layers it out until it basically sounds like an orchestra of one to ten thousand people playing in a small room; no electronic processing, rarely even adds reverb, just multiplication, so it is simultaneously a very realistic, plausible, acoustic sound, and one that absolutely could not happen in the real world. Threshold of Deafening Silence and L'ivresse de la vitesse are my favorite two albums.

Why Remaster Old Works? (L’ivressse de la vitesse 1)

In the late 1970’s I started to write and produce music involving hundreds of parts or tracks. In the early days, the analogue recording medium was very noisy when bouncing (or premixing) tracks together. Things improved throughout the 1980’s and ’90’s, but a large multitrack digital tape recorder was still out of my financial reach. By the late 1990’s the new computer and hard drive speeds finally provided me with an affordable multitrack solution. For the first time in my life I was able to achieve the balance between individual voices that I had so carefully notated in the original scores. I achieved further musical clarity and a new depth of sound by using quality compression, equalisation and reverb. To remaster, I went back to the individual tracks. This was a huge undertaking. For example, a piece like Dancing on the Walls of Jericho (1990) may be only 16 minutes and 15 seconds long, but it is a large tape work comprising eighty hours of original recorded materials.

Recordings always ‘freeze’ or crystallise musical and spectral meaning for the listener. An odd sound combination that you have grown fond of in the old master may not appear in the same way in the new one. However, I think you will agree that I have stayed true to the original compositions. I changed some musical moments and transitions in Dancing on the Walls of Jericho, Beyond the Walls of Jericho, and the tape components for Physics of Seduction. Invocations #2 and Physics of Seduction. Invocations #3, all originally released on the L’ivresse de la vitesse CD in 1994. These changes were motivated by compositional concerns and were created using the musical materials from the Walls Cycle. The only new recordings made for the remastering process were the drum parts (performed by Philippe Keyser) in Physics of Seduction. Invocation #2 and Physics of Seduction. Invocation #3.

I invite you to discover many new levels of meaning and clarity in the new masters, which are much closer to my original artistic intention.

yes the liners are pretty much all the info i have.

Intoxicated By Speed, the discs [from the 1994 edition]

The music on these two discs represents two different but related compositional strategies. The first compositional strategy is represented by the creation of the four solo tape works and the second strategy is the creation of the five works for soloist and tape.

The creation of the solo tape compositions involves the composition of several hundred simultaneous musical parts or lines on large manuscript paper. Each part or line is individually performed on an acoustic instrument and recorded. Once all several hundred parts have been individually recorded, they are digitally mixed together with usually no, or very little, signal processing or electronic effects. This working method allows for new and complex polyrhythmic and microtonal tuning relationships between parts that could never be performed by a live ensemble. This compositional technique also allows for unique orchestration and density possibilities that can be constantly transformed.

The exclusive use of acoustic instruments in these recordings could be partially explained by the fact that I regularly perform on the violin, guitar and cello. Therefore I hear a richness of human expression in acoustic instrumental performance which, to me, is largely absent in any other electroacoustic production method. Indeed the sound worlds found in these recordings could not be created by current electronic synthesis techniques, which are unable to produce a large palette of convincingly different timbres or sounds. The narrowness of this range of unique timbres prevents the type of orchestration strategies that can occur for acoustic sounds in which large numbers of sound sources can be combined and the individuality of each sound is somewhat maintained while there is a contribution to the overall sound. Likewise, this music could not be produced by current sampling techniques, which cannot create convincing long musical phrase structures which develop according to the compositional language of each piece.

samples here for anyone interested:

http://www.electrocd.com/en/cat/imed_0317/

you can even sample the samples and make your own composition

http://www.electrocd.com/en/boutique/empreintesdigitales/

plus, empreintes digitales is just a rad label. they put out amazing stuff. and all their CDs now are dvd audio and they sound friggin' great. if you are into state of the art sound that is. if you are an earbud/ipod person than nevermind.

*drops acid*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHj1jY36kGk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJoto35onao&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryBVFWd-pxg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEn8Xl8Ve2U

No amen breaks etc.

etc.

Toshio Nakanishi is a hero of mine. Major Force records and his stuff as Tycoon Tosh completely influential in my life. before Major Force he had started the new wave band Plastics. in the early 80's he was doing stuff like this too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZooBeaSaGcY&feature=relmfu

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhJEGUzVjl4&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUajcyh-F6s&feature=related

and his stuff as Melon is different from all that!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5WsXWBPzmI&feature=relmfu

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZIAwC3ij-g&feature=relmfu

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh5wEcLLI-w&feature=relmfu

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0b_9X0xFYs&feature=relmfu

scott u just redeemed the existence of this idiotic thread

i dunno.... that stuff is prettttty close to "amen breaks etc" territory!

omg not an amen break! how uncreative

No mention of Public Enemy?

4 independent metions of "the bomb squad" and one quote.
walter ruttmann - weekend.
"artist" / "sampler"

mennnnnnnnnnntions.
how would christian marclay fit in?
i'm not sure i could be arsed to even begin thinking about it