Mad Men on AMC • Fifth Season Thread

she seems to be much kinder and considerate of her kids

......................

yeah, i'm not getting that at all. the most humanizing thing they've given betty this season are a fat suit and a dieting regimen.

yeah she was delightful to Sally this week

she seems to actually enjoy things in life (ok, so it's food that made her fat, but still!)

this comment is intended seriously?

contenderizer, my point is that we didn't know those things about Peggy in the first season of the show, just like we still don't know much about Megan after less than a season. Megan is still a mystery to us to some degree, just like she is a mystery to the characters. Joan thinks she's a trophy wife; Peggy thinks she can do anything.

compared to how she was to her a couple seasons back? When I said "more" I meant it relatively speaking.

Peggy banged Pete in the first episode! and dressed terribly

xp

xp - i don't think betty has seemed particularly evil this season at all! she seems to be much kinder and considerate of her kids; she seems to actually enjoy things in life (ok, so it's food that made her fat, but still!) she does not seem remotely beyond the pale as far as interactions with her asshole ex that repeatedly cheated and lied.

― sarahell, Tuesday, May 15, 2012 4:19 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

she used her 12-year-old daughter as a pawn in mind games with Don and Megan

adultery is bad, but this is way way way more bad. straight up horrible, childish, and evil.

she's using her child to get back at her ex. manipulating your kids like that is inexcusable, one of the worst things you can do as a spouse with joint custody.

She married a guy she barely knew.

would say this has pretty definitively been depicted as NOT being a mistake on her part. so far.

Peggy banged Pete in the first episode! and dressed terribly

yeah, and she's repeated the latter sin in almost every episode

Peggy banged Pete in the first episode!

I was responding to contenderizer. I don't dispute this. I also don't see it as a character flaw any more than Megan marrying Don.

and dressed terribly

lol

so you think neither are a mistake, but cited Megan marrying Don as a mistake anyway? okay

pete is nagl. marrying don i can understand.

she seems to actually enjoy things in life (ok, so it's food that made her fat, but still!)

this comment is intended seriously?

― Mordy, Tuesday, May 15, 2012 1:23 PM (3 minutes ago)

-- yeah, it is! It seemed the last season she was featured in she was miserable and super-depressed. I dunno, I just remember being severely depressed a few years back and taking no pleasure in anything, and being able to enjoy eating was a sign that things were turning around and there was hope.

getting pregnant by one of your already-engaged superiors/coworkers - who also happens to be a slimy asshole - seems like a pretty big flaw imo but ymmv obviously

xp

And not even -realizing- she is pregnant! That is a pretty serious flaw.

she's using her child to get back at her ex. manipulating your kids like that is inexcusable, one of the worst things you can do as a spouse with joint custody.

there are far worse things you can do. like this just seems like garden variety bad parenting that lots of people in that situation do from time to time.

i guess i see the compulsive eating as being symptomatic of the depression, not as an alleviation or bright note in it. it's hard to imagine she's getting satisfaction out of it, but other interpretations might be valid too idk

It seemed the last season she was featured in she was miserable and super-depressed. I dunno, I just remember being severely depressed a few years back and taking no pleasure in anything, and being able to enjoy eating was a sign that things were turning around and there was hope.

that's an interesting read, i guess. and she was looking forward to the pleasure that using sally against megan and don would provide, so i guess it's a bummer that didn't work out as planned.

she's using her child to get back at her ex. manipulating your kids like that is inexcusable, one of the worst things you can do as a spouse with joint custody.

there are far worse things you can do. like this just seems like garden variety bad parenting that lots of people in that situation do from time to time.

― sarahell, Tuesday, May 15, 2012 1:31 PM (15 seconds ago)

i come down somewhere between these poles. betty's manipulation of sally was shitty, but no more shitty (and arguably much less trivial) than don's mistreatment of betty. i still think that don is the show's only real villain, but this season seems to be working hard to change that impression.

there are far worse things you can do. like this just seems like garden variety bad parenting that lots of people in that situation do from time to time.

― sarahell, Tuesday, May 15, 2012 4:31 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

o_O

yeah, you don't ever do that shit with your kids, it's just wrong.

people do it all the time. sad but true

xp

I guess the qualitative moral difference is that cheating is something adults do to each other, involving the children means harming an innocent

^^^^^

so you think neither are a mistake, but cited Megan marrying Don as a mistake anyway? okay

I think both of them have made spur of the moment decisions that could have had bad results. For Peggy it did, for Megan it didn't. Judging things based entirely on the results is foolish.

Betty isn't gargamel just being evil for the thrill of it. She's reacting (poorly) to things that have happened to her. That's why she's not so much a "villain" to me.

i'm not saying it isn't wrong, just that it's not evil-wrong. It's not suggesting your ex or their current partner is an unfit parent, absconding with the kids, refusing custodial visits, trying to seduce the ex ...

fwiwI think Don's lying about his entire identity and serial cheating and general disregard for Betty as a human being is much worse than Betty's (still really bad) impulsive attempt to lob a grenade at Don through Sally.

no, manipulating a child is way more evil than trying to seduce your married ex-husband, I promise. xp

not that I really believe in comparative evil but do you seriously think that manipulating a child is run-of-the-mill bad parenting whereas flirting with an adult is evil?

having been raised by decent but flawed parents, i feel that "harming the innocent" is an unavoidable part of the process. what betty's done is shitty behavior, but not some high crime. sally will get over it.

smh

look, it's not like she was trying to get Sally to say that Don was a rapist or pedophile. This is some pretty minor manipulation.

i still think that don is the show's only real villain

http://images.wikia.com/madmen/images/a/a5/Pete-Campbell.jpg

there are far worse things you can do. like this just seems like garden variety bad parenting that lots of people in that situation do from time to time.

There's a sliding scale of that stuff. Surprising your 12 year old daughter with the fact her father had a wife she didn't know about and then sending her off to ask her new stepmother is some low down shit.

i don't think any of these things mentioned are evil, but i do think manipulating a kid like that is horrible

it's not like she was making it up though!

to me Betty's just getting worse because whereas before she could kid herself that she had some kind of perfect life and was better than everyone, now she is keenly aware that she doesn't have everything she wants, it's harder to pretend so she's filling the cracks in her dream with food, AND she's using her own children to kick back against the things that are making her unhappy...she's never not going to blame everyone else around her for robbing her of her dreams and she's never not going to punish herself and her children for it

but I have never liked her character and I will never stan for her so that's just my 2 cents

super-editorialized, lol

I mean yes Sally will get over it but that doesn't mean that manipulating your 12-year-old daughter in order to disrupt your ex-husband's new relationship and in the process undermining your daughter's relationship with her father and stepmother isn't fucked up!

I mean at least Betty didn't stab Sally, right! She's got that going for her!

i mean, yeah, it was total shit-stirring, but, at what age is it appropriate for her to be told about it?

why doesn't Betty just tell Sally about Don's real identity! No big deal!

not that I really believe in comparative evil but do you seriously think that manipulating a child is run-of-the-mill bad parenting whereas flirting with an adult is evil?

betty's behavior was worse, no question. but i think don's treatment of betty over the course of their marriage was just as bad, and way more sustained.

i don't think Betty gets to decide when Sally learns about it. you're being super obtuse.

The stuff that happens to you when you are a kid can leave scars. It doesn't have to be a crime to fuck you up.

comparative evil 101

12 is an appropriate age, but Betty knew the story and could've told her right then without leaving her hanging and having all sorts of misdirected anger.

everyone ends up scarred - that's life!