Mad Men on AMC • Fifth Season Thread

i guess i see the compulsive eating as being symptomatic of the depression, not as an alleviation or bright note in it. it's hard to imagine she's getting satisfaction out of it, but other interpretations might be valid too idk

It seemed the last season she was featured in she was miserable and super-depressed. I dunno, I just remember being severely depressed a few years back and taking no pleasure in anything, and being able to enjoy eating was a sign that things were turning around and there was hope.

that's an interesting read, i guess. and she was looking forward to the pleasure that using sally against megan and don would provide, so i guess it's a bummer that didn't work out as planned.

she's using her child to get back at her ex. manipulating your kids like that is inexcusable, one of the worst things you can do as a spouse with joint custody.

there are far worse things you can do. like this just seems like garden variety bad parenting that lots of people in that situation do from time to time.

― sarahell, Tuesday, May 15, 2012 1:31 PM (15 seconds ago)

i come down somewhere between these poles. betty's manipulation of sally was shitty, but no more shitty (and arguably much less trivial) than don's mistreatment of betty. i still think that don is the show's only real villain, but this season seems to be working hard to change that impression.

there are far worse things you can do. like this just seems like garden variety bad parenting that lots of people in that situation do from time to time.

― sarahell, Tuesday, May 15, 2012 4:31 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

o_O

yeah, you don't ever do that shit with your kids, it's just wrong.

people do it all the time. sad but true

xp

I guess the qualitative moral difference is that cheating is something adults do to each other, involving the children means harming an innocent

^^^^^

so you think neither are a mistake, but cited Megan marrying Don as a mistake anyway? okay

I think both of them have made spur of the moment decisions that could have had bad results. For Peggy it did, for Megan it didn't. Judging things based entirely on the results is foolish.

Betty isn't gargamel just being evil for the thrill of it. She's reacting (poorly) to things that have happened to her. That's why she's not so much a "villain" to me.

i'm not saying it isn't wrong, just that it's not evil-wrong. It's not suggesting your ex or their current partner is an unfit parent, absconding with the kids, refusing custodial visits, trying to seduce the ex ...

fwiwI think Don's lying about his entire identity and serial cheating and general disregard for Betty as a human being is much worse than Betty's (still really bad) impulsive attempt to lob a grenade at Don through Sally.

no, manipulating a child is way more evil than trying to seduce your married ex-husband, I promise. xp

not that I really believe in comparative evil but do you seriously think that manipulating a child is run-of-the-mill bad parenting whereas flirting with an adult is evil?

having been raised by decent but flawed parents, i feel that "harming the innocent" is an unavoidable part of the process. what betty's done is shitty behavior, but not some high crime. sally will get over it.

smh

look, it's not like she was trying to get Sally to say that Don was a rapist or pedophile. This is some pretty minor manipulation.

i still think that don is the show's only real villain

http://images.wikia.com/madmen/images/a/a5/Pete-Campbell.jpg

there are far worse things you can do. like this just seems like garden variety bad parenting that lots of people in that situation do from time to time.

There's a sliding scale of that stuff. Surprising your 12 year old daughter with the fact her father had a wife she didn't know about and then sending her off to ask her new stepmother is some low down shit.

i don't think any of these things mentioned are evil, but i do think manipulating a kid like that is horrible

it's not like she was making it up though!

to me Betty's just getting worse because whereas before she could kid herself that she had some kind of perfect life and was better than everyone, now she is keenly aware that she doesn't have everything she wants, it's harder to pretend so she's filling the cracks in her dream with food, AND she's using her own children to kick back against the things that are making her unhappy...she's never not going to blame everyone else around her for robbing her of her dreams and she's never not going to punish herself and her children for it

but I have never liked her character and I will never stan for her so that's just my 2 cents

super-editorialized, lol

I mean yes Sally will get over it but that doesn't mean that manipulating your 12-year-old daughter in order to disrupt your ex-husband's new relationship and in the process undermining your daughter's relationship with her father and stepmother isn't fucked up!

I mean at least Betty didn't stab Sally, right! She's got that going for her!

i mean, yeah, it was total shit-stirring, but, at what age is it appropriate for her to be told about it?

why doesn't Betty just tell Sally about Don's real identity! No big deal!

not that I really believe in comparative evil but do you seriously think that manipulating a child is run-of-the-mill bad parenting whereas flirting with an adult is evil?

betty's behavior was worse, no question. but i think don's treatment of betty over the course of their marriage was just as bad, and way more sustained.

i don't think Betty gets to decide when Sally learns about it. you're being super obtuse.

The stuff that happens to you when you are a kid can leave scars. It doesn't have to be a crime to fuck you up.

comparative evil 101

12 is an appropriate age, but Betty knew the story and could've told her right then without leaving her hanging and having all sorts of misdirected anger.

everyone ends up scarred - that's life!

yeah it's totally obtuse to suggest that Betty's goal was to have a mature conversation with Sally about Don's family history

i don't think Betty gets to decide when Sally learns about it. you're being super obtuse.

well, i think she has just as much right to make that decision as don, frankly. my objection is to the way she went about it and her motivations for doing so. i wouldn't quibble with her "right" to tell anyone she pleases the truth about don and dick whitman.

if Betty had been motivated simply by a desire for Sally to know the truth, she could have just told her herself. instead she deliberately manufactured a situation that would disrupt Don's home/family

what's shitty is that Betty used her own jealousy over Megan and Don's life/apartment/Megan's semi naked body/whatever as the fuel to put her daughter in the middle of an issue that doesn't even INVOLVE Don's first wife.

it's not even Sally knowing. it's the motivations and the way she did it and WHY she did that's just so...Betty

Yay it's Strawman time! Whee! Nobody said "Betty's goal was to have a mature conversation with Sally about Don's family history"! Strawman time!

that's life!

(well Betty may have been involved inasmuch as Don may have technically been a bigamist I forget how that all worked)

The only shitty thing about Betty's behaviour was telling Sally to ask Megan about it, imo

it's not like she was making it up though!

― sarahell, Tuesday, May 15, 2012 4:42 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

at what age is it appropriate for her to be told about it?

― sarahell, Tuesday, May 15, 2012 4:43 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

a Strawball's chance in hell ...

and yeah, Don had to divorce Anna in order to marry Betty.

anyway clearly the depravity of this situation is up for grabs for some of you I know longer care

Except Don didn't actually tell Sally the story. Is Sally going to be more or less fucked up thinking Don 'had to marry Anna' vs if BEtty had told her he switched dog tags to run from his family etc

My parents lobbed shit through me alll the time when I was a child. Fuck, they still do. I am 29 years old and I still have to tell my family not to insult the absent person to me. This is a thing.

That was about 30 xposts but y'all are typing too quickly today

The only shitty thing about Betty's behaviour was telling Sally to ask Megan about it, imo

well, exactly. she was trying to engineer a situation that would fuck with megan and don, and didn't seem too worried about the fact that sally might get hurt in the process.

know no

My parents lobbed shit through me alll the time when I was a child. Fuck, they still do. I am 29 years old and I still have to tell my family not to insult the absent person to me. This is a thing.

^^ exactly. I'd even say it's more normal than any "Oh you simply MUST thank Megan for helping you on that project, sweetie!" like a kid doesn't understand that doublespeak (i.e. they do)

if BEtty had told her he switched dog tags to run from his family

tbh I have never really understood what Don explicitly gained from switching identities. I mean, surely he could have just run off from his family and changed his name, etc. This was not uncommon. Did he get Don's bank account and house and shit? I guess that would be a big deal.

xp

Wasn't the real Don about to end his tour? He got to go home early?