The Cronenberg Thread

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Haha... I just saw that you fingered The Fly this morning and was heartened by it.

(I originally wanted the "overall" line to read "Better than A History of Violence," but that was just as a joke.)

Eric H. (Eric H.), Thursday, 20 October 2005 22:21 (eighteen years ago) link

i really, really liked this.

latebloomer (latebloomer), Friday, 21 October 2005 08:23 (eighteen years ago) link

Well, the theme is obvious, the violence that underlies everyday life, etc. But most themes are obvious. I thought he nibbled at it in some interesting ways, most interesting being the movie's fundamental ambivalence toward violence and its acknowledgment of its ambivalence. Zeitz criticizes the violence for generally producing good rather than bad results -- the motel massacre at the beginning aside, bad guys are always on the losing end. But that was deliberate, clearly. The whole movie is set up in that tension between the knowledge that violence breeds violence etc. and the actual events of the story in which violence puts an end to violence. I thought the point of the dining table scene at the end was that the whole family is now sort of in on what Tom/Joey has known all along, which is that domestic security is inevitably built on some kind of blood sacrifice. Like suburban housing developments on old battlefields, etc. Not an original insight, OK, but I thought it was handled with some elegance and a fair amount of black comedy.

-- gypsy mothra (meetm...), October 18th, 2005.

otm. generally i think this movie sits well with the rest of cronenberg's ouevre, in that it's theme of 'violence underlies human behavior' is part of the greater theme in his work: that human beings are essentially fragile biological machines.

latebloomer (latebloomer), Friday, 21 October 2005 08:32 (eighteen years ago) link

i really loved this film. i wasn't expecting it to be so...silly, in places. i didn't expect that one of the genres mashed up in it would be a healthy dose of "oooh! he's BEHIND YOU!" pantomime action, and i didn't expect william hurt to be so hammy and look like sir alan sugar.

the way it veered between that (and of course the plunging into all sorts of cliché and massively obvious signposts with relish) and some really gripping intensity was unsettling: i was laughing pretty much throughout the last violent scene, when tom/joey escapes his bro's henchmen, because his knack for killing and not getting killed was somewhat ludicrous by that point (plus "how d'you fuck that one up?"), but that amusement was ruptured by the violence being just slightly more graphic than you expect, and viggo mortensen's amazing acting - his eyes switch-flicked between genial and psychotic so effectively.

also viggo mortensen was HOTT. um, as was the son. i couldn't quite decide which was hotter.

The Lex (The Lex), Friday, 21 October 2005 09:07 (eighteen years ago) link

I just want to reiterate that Viggo turned FORTY SEVEN yesterday.
Dear god I hope I look like that when I hit 47. Holy frijoles.

TOMBOT, Friday, 21 October 2005 11:55 (eighteen years ago) link

Well not exactly like that but you understand what I mean.

TOMBOT, Friday, 21 October 2005 11:59 (eighteen years ago) link

47!!!

The Lex (The Lex), Friday, 21 October 2005 12:11 (eighteen years ago) link

I understand they were probably going for blankness, but I really didn't find Viggo ... there.

I like my DC films with new orifices (or uses for them) or detachable body parts.

Some critic brought up "dreamlike" mise-en-scene, and not so much charcterizations as "role-playing." Which was my defense of Eyes Wide Shut, but too many strings were showing in this film.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 21 October 2005 12:52 (eighteen years ago) link

I liked it, both pn visual and thematic levels. My date was a little unsettled, however, but then she did choose it!

BARMS, Friday, 21 October 2005 13:27 (eighteen years ago) link

I think it worked extremely well as a satire of contemporary America, specifically underscoring how violence and lies are what really bind homes together. Family values, indeed. It can even work as a broader, more primal satire of America, period, positing that the entire country - its founding, its morality, its pride - exists as a sort of big lie.

Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Friday, 21 October 2005 15:14 (eighteen years ago) link

for me, the 'big' point which was best made was the ease with which violence seeps into 'normal' life - the son and the mother, basically, neither of whom had any previous experience of violence or any predisposition to it, being suddenly given psychological leeway to let it show in their own lives.

The Lex (The Lex), Friday, 21 October 2005 15:28 (eighteen years ago) link

positing that the entire country - its founding, its morality, its pride - exists as a sort of big lie

I see the "lie" in History of Violence in the way the straight characters continue to deny the level to which they're invigorated by their own opportunity for debasement. The son's snitfit where he makes a crack to his dad "you gonna rub me out?!" is directed so that it's clear the son's gas tank (which was filled during the school hallway scene) just got topped off.

Eric H. (Eric H.), Friday, 21 October 2005 15:36 (eighteen years ago) link

in other words, what Lex said.

Eric H. (Eric H.), Friday, 21 October 2005 15:37 (eighteen years ago) link

And then the unease of the final shot/scene, with the family together wondering "What next? do we continue to live the lie, now that it has been revealed to us? Can we?" With the daughter present as a reminder of the innocence the other three so clearly crave but know they can never have, or even pretend to have anymore.

Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Friday, 21 October 2005 17:04 (eighteen years ago) link

Viggo's "I should have killed you in Philly" is one of the most satisfying moments I can remember in the movies.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 21 October 2005 17:19 (eighteen years ago) link

And yet, I don't even remember that. When I see the line quoted I can't remember if Ed Harris said it.

If the thing had been executed (yuk yuk) with any sort of aesthetic *conviction*, I might've bought it, but it was like a schematic Brechtian thing with little verve.

And really, at no level of stylization is THAT kid kicking THOSE bullies' asses deserving of any response but WTF?!

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 21 October 2005 17:39 (eighteen years ago) link

the way it veered between that (and of course the plunging into all sorts of cliché and massively obvious signposts with relish) and some really gripping intensity was unsettling: i was laughing pretty much throughout the last violent scene, when tom/joey escapes his bro's henchmen, because his knack for killing and not getting killed was somewhat ludicrous by that point (plus "how d'you fuck that one up?"), but that amusement was ruptured by the violence being just slightly more graphic than you expect, and viggo mortensen's amazing acting - his eyes switch-flicked between genial and psychotic so effectively.

The William Hurt scenes were so smashingly effective because Cronenberg and Hurt purposely went over the top; I was laughing as hysterically as you were, as was the audience.

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Friday, 21 October 2005 17:47 (eighteen years ago) link

Morbs, it was a big deal because until that moment Viggo has been denying his past completely -- it finally confirms that he is capable of recognizing his past/that the mafiosos are not, in fact, mistaken, which Viggo's incredibly believable incomprehension of them still holds out of tiny promise of. And just the way he says it, it's like he's slipping back into a comfortable leather jacket he hasn't worn in years..

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 21 October 2005 17:56 (eighteen years ago) link

how stylish are you, Dr Morbius?

RJG (RJG), Friday, 21 October 2005 18:30 (eighteen years ago) link

here's an interesting review, from this blog.

A History of Violence
Wednesday, October 19th, 2005

I’m not sure how much I can add, belatedly, to what k-punk, girish twice, Chuck, Jodi — followed by k-punk’s reply and Jodi’s counter-reply — Jonathan Rosenbaum, and others have already said about A History of Violence. But I do think that it is David Cronenberg’s best film since at least Dead Ringers (1988). Quite some time ago, I wrote extensively about the body horror in Cronenberg’s early films: which meant a lot, and still means a lot, to me. I was a bit disappointed, however, about the way that Cronenberg’s distancing himself from genre, in order to embrace “art film,” got in the way of his adaptations of writers with whom he shared a sensibility (William Burroughs and J. G. Ballard). And I was still more disappointed, when, in his more recent films, even though sometimes with increased artistic power, Cronenberg moved away from that explosive sensibility altogether, and towards an implosive concern with the anguish of wounded white male interiority — a subject with which I have little sympathy, as I think that we (since I have to be included as part of that “we”) need to get over it, and go on to more important things than whining over our supposed (more fantasmatic than actually real) loss of privilege. (In fairness, I should note that my friend Bill Beard, in his excellent book on Cronenberg, not only gives a far less pejorative account of this progress, but also argues that such a process was in fact already the real concern of Cronenberg’s earlier films as well, despite all the posthuman exploration that I, among others, have read into them).

The editing of A History of Violence is very tight and powerful, like that of Spider. But the important thing is that A History of Violence for me is that the film is not psychological, not about interiority, in the way Spider definitely still was (and the way many of the Cronenberg films of the last fifteen years or so have been). By “not psychological”, I don’t mean not affective, but that the affect in some way is impersonal or transpersonal. In Spider, dread was tied in to the protagonist’s point of view: a POV that we know is distorted and fantasmatic, but which we cannot escape from, or get an independent perspective on, despite this knowledge. The epistemological deadlock — or better, prison — that is at the heart of that film was reinforced by the way in which the adult protagonist (Ralph Fiennes) appears in the frame as a silent observer of his own psychotically distorted childhood memories.

The editing and pacing of A History of Violence create a similar sense of dread, even when what is explicitly going on (the members of a picture-perfect nuclear family eating breakfast, pouring the dry cereal, etc.) is entirely “normal” and banal. But Viggo Mortensen, playing the protagonist, is so closed off and opaque that we can’t really read (or more accurately: feel) what he’s going through as subjective anguish. (I’m assuming anyone who has read this far has seen the movie, or at least knows the basic premise: Tom Stall, exemplary small-town family man, turns out to have a dark past as Joey Cusack, psychotic mob hit man). As Tom, Mortensen is simply too blank to “identify” with; as Joey, he doesn’t display any of the self-congratulatory feeling that even Clint Eastwood (wonderfully minimal in expression as he is) does ultimately allow himself when he is in vengeful mode. In an email exchange, Bill Beard suggested to me that Cronenberg and Mortensen are operating by subtraction: “A History of Violence produces something radical simply by subtracting standard conduits of viewer empathy from what is unmistakably a mainstream-movie framework.” So we get, for instance, generic small-town Americana such as is found in the paintings of Norman Rockwell, and in the films of Frank Capra and (more recently) Steven Spielberg; everything is literally as it is supposed to be, but some dimension of warmth (or smarminess) is unaccountably missing, and this makes it all rather creepy. I’d only add to Beard’s account that the greatness of Mortensen’s acting, in particular, lies in the way he switches from one to the other of his two ‘characters’ or personalities, so that ultimately he seems to be trapped in a no-man’s-land between them. He’s a man without qualities, which is why both of his personas seem unpsychological. The conventional way to tell this story would be to make one of the personas more basic, more in depth, revealing the other persona to be just a mask; but this is precisely what Cronenberg refuses to do.

All this is even more evident in the two extraordinary sex scenes between Mortensen’s character and his wife Edie (Maria Bello), which are at the heart of the movie. The first involves playacting, as Edie drags Mortensen-as-Tom off to a secret tryst in the course of which she dresses as a cheerleader, and they pretend to be making out while their (whose? hers, I think) parents are sleeping in the next room. The second is when Mortensen-as-Joey drags Edie down the stairs and brutally fucks her in what is at least a near-rape (she ultimately seems to consent, though it’s clear that she continues to feel loathing as much as desire). What unites these two opposed scenes is that they both seem similarly distanced and performative, except that there is no sense of any realer or truer self behind the mask of the performance. The first scene is a parody of what adolescence is supposed to be like; the second is a parody of what maturity or adulthood all too often turns out to be like. This is why I felt a bit queasy during the first scene, and found it almost as disturbing as the second one. Both scenes suggest a kind of void, and a failure of contact: the two people never really come together. (Is this what Lacan meant by declaring that “there is no sexual relation”?). It’s not a void that one can feel anguished about, however; for the selfhood, or sense of “thrownness” at least, that would allow one to feel anguish is precisely what is missing, what has been replaced by a void.

All this is to say that the split or doubling in A History of Violence is ontological, rather than existential or psychological. The split between Tom and Joey, and between the two sex scenes, of course corresponds to the two worlds of the film, both of which are themselves cinematic — and thereby social — fantasies: the wholesome, Capraesque or Spielbergesque small town (Ronald Reagan’s America, or George W. Bush’s red states) on the one hand, and the big-city-at-nighttime on the other. (I initially thought of film noir for these scenes; but on further reflection I’m reminded more of the big city in violent-revenge-fantasy films like Charles Bronson’s Death Wish, or, more recently, Robert Rodriguez and Frank Miller’s Sin City — it’s not irrelevant that A History of Violence, like Sin City, is an adaptation of material that first appeared in comic book form).

The result is that A History of Violence offers us a kind of spookily abstract modeling of cultural formations: of American fantasies about family, the good life, violence, empowerment, and self-reinvention: and in particular of how these participate in the construction of masculinity. This is very different from exploring the disintegration of masculinity — or of American culture, for that matter — from the inside. I call this ‘abstract modeling’ not just because Cronenberg’s presentation is so distanced and subtractive, but also because in a very real sense the abstraction is all that there is: the “inside” — something more personal and subjective, that would give the abstraction existential density and individual quirkiness and variability — simply doesn’t exist. This is Cronenberg’s version of postmodern flatness: the depths do not exist, everything is visible and apparent. This also explains the title of the film: this move really is a “history,” in the sense that it tracks the emergence of violence, and the different forms it takes at different times and in different circumstances. Violence is generated — almost as a autonomic effect — out of tiny rifts in the social fabric, or in the fabric of social myth (I mean, in the myth of noir as much as in the myth of wholesome “we take care of our own” Americana). This is why we get the story of Jack (Ashton Holmes), Tom’s teenage son, who erupts with violence in a parallel way to his father: as if what came back out of the past in the father’s case were generated as it were spontaneously, out of his very need to struggle, as an adolescent, with the (entirely stereotypical) problems of autonomy from the father and coming to terms with normative formations of masculinity. (I think that Jodi’s reading of the film as the son’s fantasy is valuable in the way it works out the son’s perspective; but I don’t accept it as an overall reading of the film, because it overly psychologizes the film and privileges the son’s perspective more than the film itself does, and thereby gives that perspective too much existential weight, ignoring how the film suggests it is just another social cliche, another purely superficial mode of articulating an otherwise blank subjectivity).

To say that A History of Violence is ontological and historical, rather than existential and psychological; and to say that it shows violence to be itself a surface or superficial effect of a structure or abstract model that is itself all surfaces (I’m calling it a “structure”, but the point of this is precisely that there is no underlying “deep structure” in any sense of the term): to say all this is also to say that the dichotomy or structural opposition that the film presents us with is false, and that the film ‘deconstructs’ the opposition, rather than affirming it. In other words, A History of Violence is like a Moebius strip. At any given point, it seems to have two sides; but the two sides are really the same side, each is continuous with the other, and slides imperceptibly into the other. There is no way to separate the Capra/Spielberg side from the noir/revenge nocturnal side. The common interpretive tendency in cases like this is to see the ‘dark’ side as the deep, hidden underside of the ‘bright’ side, the depths beneath the seemingly cheerful surface. But in A History of Violence, everything is what it seems. Both sides, both identities, are surfaces; both are ’superficial’; and they blends into one other almost without our noticing. The small town, with its overly ostentatious friendliness, is a vision of the good life; but brother Richie’s enormous mansion, furnished with a nouveau-riche vulgarity that almost recalls Donald Trump’s penthouse, is also a vision of the good life. In their odd vacancy, they are both quintessentially American (this could be, as Cronenberg has hinted, an allegory of America’s current cultural divide: blue states and red states, which actually are more continuous with one another than anyone on either side recognizes… this is something, perhaps, that only a Canadian could see, as it is invisible both to us Americans, who are too caught up in it, and to people from outside North America, who are too far away).

The Moebius strip would be Cronenberg’s version of the postmodern idea that there are no depths, only surfaces. Or (the same thing, to me) that there are affects, but not identities to be owners of those affects. And this two-sides-as-one would be why/how Cronenberg can be so unrelentingly grim, instead of having to resort to camp, in the ways that David Lynch and Guy Maddin both do (in the ways, I would say, that they are both forced to do, because of the extremities of their visions). K-Punk is right to assert that, for both Cronenberg and Lynch, it’s wrong to explain away the dualities and dichotomies of their films by saying that one side is the dream or fantasy or underside of the other. Rather, we have to grasp the total congruence of the film’s two halves (this comment would apply to Mulholland Drive as much as to A History of Violence. The difference is that where Lynch marks the two sides in the form of manic camp on the one hand and depressive bitterness and paranoia on the other, Cronenberg flattens both of them out, empties them both out. Lynch is thus a maximalist, Cronenberg a minimalist).

To say that Cronenberg’s vision in this film is ontological is also to say that he recognizes no hierarchy of levels. A History of Violence isn’t a film about existential male anguish, precisely because it works equally well, without privileging any one of these, as a study of the vacancy of the isolated inidividual, of the bourgeois nuclear family, of America as a fantasmatic formation or imaginary community, and of the “human condition” in the most general terms. But if it works most bitingly and corrosively on the level of family, this is because the Spielberg/revenge dichotomy-that-isn’t-one, which is Cronenberg’s largest cinematic reference point, tends to play out most overtly in terms of Family. The small town, of course, is grounded on the nuclear family, and its “family values”; Joey became Tom, in large part, by becoming a family man (which is why Edie worries, when she discovers the hidden identity, what the family really is, what their name is or could be). In Philadelphia, Richie makes a speech to Joey/Tom about why and how he never married & would never marry: it ties you down, makes difficulties, if you are married, then when you have a fling with somebody else (as you will inevitably want to do) you will have to do it with elaborate secrecy, etc. All this is a prelude to Richie’s trying to kill Joey, not in spite of, but precisely because of the fact that they are brothers (Richie never got as far in the mob as he wanted to, he says, because his family tie to his crazy brother held him back, just like getting married would). But by the end of the film — the last scene — being a married husband/father/family man is just as hollow as Richie’s life was — and retrospectively, it always was this hollow. Cronenberg rejects and undermines what is to me the one most absolutely offensive thing about all of Spielberg’s films (and about all of Spike Lee’s films too, for that matter): the absolute insistence on taking on the responsibilities of fatherhood, and thus restoration of a 1950s nuclear family, as an unquestionable and totally redemptive gesture. I hated that insistence before I had children; and now that I am a father, I hate it even more. The hollowness of the final scene of A History of Violence — the son getting out a setting for the place of the now-returned father at the dinner table — is devastating in its absolute oppressive rightness.

latebloomer (latebloomer), Friday, 21 October 2005 18:35 (eighteen years ago) link

OMG grad student alert

phew!

that'll take a while to process.

dar1a g (daria g), Friday, 21 October 2005 19:23 (eighteen years ago) link

If the thing had been executed (yuk yuk) with any sort of aesthetic *conviction*, I might've bought it, but it was like a schematic Brechtian thing with little verve.
Doc ain't wrong.

Are You Nomar? (miloaukerman), Friday, 21 October 2005 19:26 (eighteen years ago) link

too long, didn't read
-- latebloomer (posercore24...), October 21st, 2005.

fixed it for you, Friday, 21 October 2005 19:49 (eighteen years ago) link

I think True Believers in this film are unlikely to convince others, prraps like those of us who think "Fight Club" is a far more original, funny, sharp treatment of identity/ social roles/ violence (although it's more about the Absence of Family, and Fincher's resume is far spottier and shorter than Cronenberg's).

Didn't buy Viggo as smalltown diner guy or Philly thug.

If "In the Bedroom" was a revenge flick for the NPR crowd, AHOV is one for _________?

btw, the grosses aren't all that great ($25 M or so), and this was supposed to be DC's first 'broad appeal' project in years. Can the masses tell his heart wasn't really in it, or do they just find it airless?

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 21 October 2005 20:22 (eighteen years ago) link

If "In the Bedroom" was a revenge flick for the NPR crowd, AHOV is one for anyone who didn't know what the fuck was going on it "Lost Highway."

I like the way people keep referring to Cronenberg's idea of small town life as "generic," when in fact it seemed quite real to me. People driving around blasting hip-hop. Kids smoking pot on the corner. Hardly Capra, very contemporary. That was my first real clue that I was in for something far deeper than the usual "darkness lurks beneath the surface of small town life" trope.

Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Saturday, 22 October 2005 12:09 (eighteen years ago) link

Here's David Thomson's Guardian review:

On September 23, a great American movie opened in the US, and New Line, the distributor, revealed it at just 14 theatres. I am not complaining - I love and respect old-fashioned opening plans where just a few cities get a picture at first and then the word goes out. And New Line had their arguments: it wasn't that David Cronenberg was prepared to have this movie called Recoil! or The Last Day in Tom Stall's Life. No, this movie has a chilling edge of academic authority or analytic dread. It's called A History of Violence. And it's the first unmistakably great American film since Mulholland Dr., even if it is made by a Canadian.

Cronenberg is 62 now. Born and raised in Toronto, he still lives there, and his work is followed at an international level, but without the solid, financial reward that can change a man, or an artist. When he made Spider a few years ago, an uncompromisingly bleak study of schizophrenia in which Ralph Fiennes had hardly a word of dialogue, Cronenberg's determination to follow his own vision nearly destroyed the enterprise for lack of funds. And there will be some viewers now inclined to see A History of Violence as a sell-out, a desperate excursion into full-blooded film noir about the kind of things that happen - notoriously - not in Canada but in the United States.

Tom Stall is a gaunt-looking fellow with a dreamy smile on his face and an easy manner that fits in to the small Indiana town where he owns a diner called Stall's. He looks a lot like Viggo Mortensen. He has a wife, Maria Bello, and two decent kids. The teenage boy is mocked at school for not being as male as Indiana prefers. But Tom and his wife still have a wild, tender sex life of the kind that might not be owned up to in all towns in Indiana. But even though this is "sleepy" Indiana, the air is as taut as an old wire ready to snap. Something terrible is coming, and we know after just a few minutes that Cronenberg has devised and outfitted the terror in keeping with the "Let's do an experiment" tone of the title.

In the past, Cronenberg has been one of the world's most creative experimenters with the horror genre. I suspect that was because he felt able to push that genre towards his own necessary economy plus the quite startling dismemberment or parasitic possession of his vision. This was evident in They Came From Within, Rabid, The Brood, The Dead Zone and even The Fly, which was the first glorious blooming of his special sense of humour. But still, there was something very deliberate in Cronenberg that felt unable to get into what you might call popular genre. But like many ascetics, familiarity with his own medium has made his search for formal beauty more fundamental. And that is what is so American: for nearly always, I think, the most radical departures in American come with the telling of the old, old stories.

So this is a myth composed by a master that operates at the level of pulp fiction, or graphic novel - its actual source material. Ed Harris and later William Hurt take a huge exultant pleasure in knowing that they are playing stock figures from that tradition. And they know that we are loving hating them. But beyond that this is a superb story of a marriage, in which a great lie has been told, but guessed at? And even hoped for? The interaction of Mortensen and Maria Bello is actually the core to what the title is about, and their two love and sex scenes are the essence of this stunning movie. And when the family next sits down to dinner together the air is still taut with new discoveries and the affirmation of very old truths. By letting himself make a simpler kind of picture, Cronenberg has left us not so much with his glittering intelligence as a kind of question that the US has to ask itself.

Quite deliberately, I am not telling you the story of A History of Violence. That's because it employs a formula you've seen before, but gives it a radically new rhythm, one in which the atmosphere of the title is not just the energy that renews the country and which makes it safe and dangerous again. This film is a preparation for the uncertainty of the last few shots.

Just as with the close of The Deer Hunter, where survivors sing softly, "America the Beautiful", we are left to weight the balance of irony and forgiveness.

Those two films are ideal material to be shown to soldiers just returned from a war where the ordeal of survival eclipsed all thought of what the war was about.

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Saturday, 22 October 2005 12:25 (eighteen years ago) link

x-post "eXistenZ" is great, if only because it's one of the few films outside of "Mulholland Drive" (and, perhaps, "Starship Troopers") to make poor acting a plot point. In fact, I think one of the reasons Naomi Watts still gets kind of overlooked all these years later for her massive, massive performance in "MD" is that her bad-acting acting is simply too good! Likewise, all the corny bad accents and whatnot in "eXistenz" are distracting until the final revelation of what is/was and what is/was not "real."

Thomson is OTM about the "new rhythm" of "AHOV."

Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Saturday, 22 October 2005 12:28 (eighteen years ago) link

Josh, you're right about Watts' "bad-acting acting" in MD - except for the audition scene, in which she stuns the sunburned Bob Barker-esque lech and the audience with her intensity and sincerity.

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Saturday, 22 October 2005 12:40 (eighteen years ago) link

Thomson had me until he brought up The Deer Hunter.

Eric H. (Eric H.), Saturday, 22 October 2005 13:46 (eighteen years ago) link

Yeah, The Deer Hunter also got a lot of Rorschachian praise for things that weren't on the screen, and COULD have been adapted from a pretentious comic book: "Terry & The Pirates Go to Vietnam."

"radical new rhythm" -- just ridiculous!

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 22 October 2005 16:24 (eighteen years ago) link

Well, it's only "radical" in the sense that anyone going to "AHOV" looking for your typical action/vengeance film will find something else. That's, I think, part of what makes it so subversive. Also why so many people (including many at the screening I saw) seem to be laughing a lot. Everyone I've talked with has said the same thing, namely that people were laughing at odds moments all throughout. I'd say much of this has to do with the film's "rhythm," since it sure isn't due to the film's hilarious script.

Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Sunday, 23 October 2005 01:15 (eighteen years ago) link

Well, it's only "radical" in the sense that anyone going to "AHOV" looking for your typical action/vengeance film will find something else. That's, I think, part of what makes it so subversive.
Howso? Who went to AHOV expecting a 'typical action/vengeance film'?

It wasn't released as one (it got a slow roll-out, per usual for mainstreamish arthouse fare), every review focused on the Cronenberg connection, it wasn't advertised as standard action/vengeance flick.

You could make that statement for something like Starship Troopers - and the fact that wasn't a typical action/vengeance movie led to some bad feeling from the audience - but AHOV was released as an artsy Cronenberg film. If there was subversion attempted, it was a failure.

Are You Nomar? (miloaukerman), Sunday, 23 October 2005 01:29 (eighteen years ago) link

my friend Sean jokingly called this movie The Ass of Aragorn. he loved it, by the way.

latebloomer (latebloomer), Sunday, 23 October 2005 07:08 (eighteen years ago) link

The Fly pretty much peaks with the President's abortion nightmare and then tails off after there, doesn't it? The effects get worse, it's not as scary in general.

Are You Nomar? (miloaukerman), Sunday, 30 October 2005 06:02 (eighteen years ago) link

Thomson's right about this: This film is a preparation for the uncertainty of the last few shots. The ending's basically a question -- now that you know this...what? That last scene is what made the movie make sense to me.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Sunday, 30 October 2005 06:26 (eighteen years ago) link

i just bought the new "Collector's Edition" DVD of The Fly. haven't sifted through all the extras yet. classic movie though!

latebloomer (latebloomer), Sunday, 30 October 2005 15:36 (eighteen years ago) link

Looks like Cronenberg is going to adapt Dead Ringers as a miniseries for HBO..!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/film/4426386.stm

dar1a g (daria g), Friday, 11 November 2005 20:44 (eighteen years ago) link

A friend emailed me about that. As a longish series, it MIGHT work, but I doubt it (esp w/ Wesley Strick).

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 11 November 2005 20:58 (eighteen years ago) link

i'm more interested to see his take on London Fields

kyle (akmonday), Friday, 11 November 2005 21:02 (eighteen years ago) link

Cronenberg will co-produce and direct the adaptation, which is being written by Doom writer Wesley Strick.

THE HEAVENS WEEP :-(

latebloomer (latebloomer), Friday, 11 November 2005 23:34 (eighteen years ago) link

Oh, it'll be OK, he'll just rewrite it as he goes.

I wonder if it'll be even better than Nip/Tuck..

dar1a g (daria g), Saturday, 12 November 2005 17:57 (eighteen years ago) link

More "presold" bullshit brought to you by Conglomerate-Run Showbiz Inc. (and YES, it was more creative and chancy in the classic studio period)

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 12 November 2005 17:58 (eighteen years ago) link

more like dr whorebius

Skelewhore, Saturday, 12 November 2005 18:00 (eighteen years ago) link

four months pass...
saw History of Violence last night - very impressed, even tho I felt like I knew what was coming at every turn. Oddly one of the few Cronenberg films that doesn't have anything to do with technology or the supernatural - really just a stripped down, weirdly compelling morality play.

(Also, my main reaction was: that was the most violentest violence that was every violented. jeeeeezUS!)

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 17 March 2006 22:02 (eighteen years ago) link

oh man, i really really want to watch this again now.

rrrobyn (rrrobyn), Friday, 17 March 2006 22:45 (eighteen years ago) link

Watch an honest B movie instead.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 17 March 2006 22:54 (eighteen years ago) link

so Morbs I take it you didn't like it...

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 17 March 2006 22:55 (eighteen years ago) link

Little boxes on the hillside, Little boxes made of tickytacky
Little boxes on the hillside, little boxes all the same
There's a green one and a pink one and a blue one and a yellow one
And they're all made out of ticky tacky and they all look just the same.

And the people in the houses all went to the university
Where they were put in boxes and they came out all the same,
And there's doctors and there's lawyers, and business executives
And they're all made out of ticky tacky and they all look just the same.

And they all play on the golf course and drink their martinis dry,
And they all have pretty children and the children go to school
And the children go to summer camp and then to the university
Where they are put in boxes and they come out all the same.

And the boys go into business and marry and raise a family
In boxes made of ticky tacky and they all look just the same.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 17 March 2006 22:57 (eighteen years ago) link

Yeah apparently it was no Munich.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 17 March 2006 22:57 (eighteen years ago) link

dood - where does that ticky tacky houses song come from!?? My grandpa (a prof at Berkeley) used to sing it to me when I was little...

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 17 March 2006 22:59 (eighteen years ago) link


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