Mad Men on AMC • Fifth Season Thread

It's more fair to compare it to a prime time soap in that it's a scripted, taped one-camera, but narratively it's much more interesting that those shows. Those shows didn't really offer much beyond plot points.

a "prime time soap" is already, by most reckonings, a hybrid format.

i still think mad men's ellipticality (sp?) is something that sets it apart from an orthodox soap _and_ most things i would think of as "prime time soaps."

i wonder how matt weiner would answer this question btw

It's more fair to compare it to a prime time soap in that it's a scripted, taped one-camera,

Yes. Add to that: aired once a week, does not have a continuous production schedule (in the off-season there'd be re-runs).

but narratively it's much more interesting that those shows. Those shows didn't really offer much beyond plot points.

interesting to whom? offer much to whom? does the target audience affect the genre?

amateurist: Sirk is the go-to example. This isn't a conversation about Sirk. I agree with you, but don't take the general shorthand that has developed as some sort of all-encompassing statement that elevates his work as differentiated.

This show is also incredibly episodic.

How so?

interesting to whom? offer much to whom?

interesting to me. offer much to anyone who wants more than just plot. Mad Men has ideas ... sometimes they're kind of poorly formed but clearly the writers are trying to say something about relationships, power, office politics, etc. that didn't really happen on Dynasty or Dallas or whatever. Those shows offered archetypes and absolutes, but Mad Men's characterization is more varied.

but does that make it a different genre than Dynasty or Dallas, or just a better show?

I think it does but obviously it's up for debate. Mad Men has more in common with Thirtysomething or Hill Street Blues than with Dynasty imo

the difference between the soap opera and melodrama in formal terms is the difference between the sitcom and comedy in general. both the soap opera and the situation comedy are fixed in place. in these genres, things may happen, minor characters may come and go, events may appear "LIFE CHANGING" from moment to moment, but nothing ever really changes. the box is set and inviolable.

taxi must revolve around that garage, and regardless of whatever large scale life-arcs the various characters might see themselves as enmeshed in, so long as they're on the show, they can't move outside the garage. same is true of mad men. the characters go through all sorts of gyrations, but when the day is done, there they are at SCDP. don is dark and conflicted, peggy is ambitious but frustrated, joan is voluptuous yet lovelorn, roger is drunk and feckless, pete is a fucking dink, and so on.

if this were a real melodrama, don could abandon his family and set sail for brazil. peggy could find a second career as a novelist before settling into a loveless marriage in ohio, before chasing an old flame to san francisco. lane could return to england and oversee the slow dwindling of his once noble family while his children make reckless choices. place, cast and moment could be in constant turmoil. but it's not. mad men is a soap opera, a tiny stage on which the melodrama endlessly recycles itself, rinse and repeat.

the characters go through all sorts of gyrations, but when the day is done, there they are at SCDP.

They didn't start at SCDP!

don is dark and conflicted, peggy is ambitious but frustrated, joan is voluptuous yet lovelorn, roger is drunk and feckless, pete is a fucking dink, and so on.

Don is also charming and confident, peggy is wacky and friendly, joan is more than a body type, etc. etc. You're selling these characters short.

SCDP is Sterling Cooper 2: the Sterlinging

They didn't start at SCDP!

same place, different name. episode to episode dynamics are the same. no one's a cop, a ghost, a midwife, an ESL teacher, or anything other than what they've always been.

Thirtysomething was pretty soap-opera-y iirc

if this were a real melodrama, don could abandon his family and set sail for brazil.

This is really more of a movie vs. tv thing. A tv show is bound to its sets. But even then modern shows change locations more often than they did in the past.

Don is also charming and confident, peggy is wacky and friendly, joan is more than a body type, etc. etc. You're selling these characters short.

well, of course. i gave them each two words for the sake of economy (and comedy). they're obviously more than that, but they're all just as obviously locked into their various roles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jzk3-5GYvbE

Thirtysomething was pretty soap-opera-y iirc

No more than any other drama of that era.

but they're all just as obviously locked into their various roles

Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't.

ugh why am I not asleep, fuck me

is that why you used taxi as an example?

A tv show is bound to its sets.

this isn't necessarily true. tv shows are bound to certain formulas, but i think this has less to do with physical and economic constraints than what people (presumbably?) want of a story that is open-ended vs one with a clear beginning and end. stories on TV tend to exploit a single fixed situation, life as the reliable continuance of the here-and-now. no matter where you tune in, you're guaranteed of seeing the same face in the same places doing more or less the same thing. therefore, sitcoms and soap operas. TV values consistency.

since there's less demand that cinematic narratives be continuous, they can veer off in any direction they choose.

no one's a cop, a ghost, a midwife, an ESL teacher, or anything other than what they've always been.

Kinsey is an unemployed Hare Krishna fyi

also Joan left the office for like a year

pretty sure Pete is a ghost

good posts from amateurist

and Harry would make a hilariously awkward ESL teacher

don't really know what i think of all the spur-of-the-moment sex happening in this season, now that i think of it

― goole, Thursday, May 10, 2012 4:37 PM (2 weeks ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

srsly is this happening more often now or am i nuts

harry just got ass off a vengeful hippie cultist, this would have been unthinkable in previous seasons

spur-of-the-moment sex has happened a few times in past seasons (esp with Don, but also Sterling/Joan in the street, Joan gettin raped, etc.) but yeah this seems to be happening more for some reason. In the case of Don it's kind of obvious why, he's trying to keep the passion in his marriage going.

This show is also incredibly episodic.

― Fas Ro Duh (Gukbe), Thursday, May 24, 2012 7:57 AM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

How so?

― sarahell, Thursday, May 24, 2012 7:59 AM (7 hours ago) Bookmark

Every episode has a lot of very self-contained elements, even as you'd need to see the series as a whole to understand the characters and their motivations as well as some of the larger arcs. Last week, Paul tries to get in contact with Harry, Harry sees him, goes to Hare Krishna, has sex with Paul's girlfriend, then gives Paul money to move away to LA and start his life over. Lane's money troubles are pushed to the front, and even that has a little arc. There's also obviously a thematic connection (most, if not all, episodes tend to have a larger theme).

As for tying things in w current events, anyone think there's a chance Joan ex-husband may show up later as a protesting veteran peacenik?

I hope Joan's ex-husband shows up later in a pine box

YES I SAID IT :)

both of those seem pretty unlikely

i mean, if this were real.

Dr. Rapey gettin killed in 'Nam seems sort of obvious so I doubt they'll go there. maybe he'll come back missing a leg or something.

he's a surgeon and an officer, there's a better chance of him coming home with the clap or a heroin addiction. or a kid. or being just fine. jesus, you people.

nm I was trying to be funny

*sigh*

Dr. Rapey comin home as a junkie would be pretty funny

guys, it's a romcom

Kinsey is an unemployed Hare Krishna fyi

...also Joan left the office for like a year

― Roger Barfing (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, May 24, 2012 9:00 AM (1 hour ago)

kinsey was always a minor character, and i doubt we'll see much more of him. joan's life never really developed outside the office, was limited to her apartment and her interactions with two minor characters. she left for a while, and now she's back.

constant, melodramatic churning in place is one of the defining characteristics of most soap operas. there's lots of interpersonal drama, secrets and schemes, the sense that some major upheaval or revelation is around the corner, but very little real change from episode to episode. that's what keeps people tuning back in: familiar characters and situations, always simmering suspensefully.

I am confused by your association of a change in locale with "real change"

like I can throw out a whole bunch of ways characters have changed but I suspect you'll just dismiss them because they're all bound to the central location of an advertising office

familiar characters and situations, always simmering suspensefully.

this sounds like most people's lives tbh

isn't the mark of these highbrow dramas that have emerged after The Sopranos (or however far back you wanna go) distinguished by a more, say, linear sense of time/plot? even in some cases having a set amount of seasons, a larger arc or story to tell over an entire series, etc.

like somewhere between a serial novel and an episodic tv show.

a sense of history is important, sure. you don't want to hit the reset button at the end of every episode.

none of these shows started with a planned multi-season story arc. TV doesn't work that way.

feel like that's exactly what's at issue here, though. and what's "different" (if anything) about these shows, whether premeditated or not.