The new rolling ILX parenting thread, since the other one was getting unwieldy

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Argh naps are becoming more and more of a nightmare. This afternoon I spent a difficult hour trying to get an exhausted and tearful Howie to nap in his crib. Eventually he conked out and slept peacefully... for 15 minutes. Then woke up screaming and refused to be resettled, or even cuddled back to sleep. He is obviously still tired as he's yawning and rubbing his eyes, but what am I supposed to do? So I've just put him in his bouncy chair and hoping he'll drop off from sheer knackeredness (before I do!).

There, moan over. Of course he is still a little darling but I just wish he'd sleep better in the day - we'd both be happier!

― Meg Busset, Sunday, 22 April 2007 13:08 (seventeen years ago) link

Oh meg, tell me about it! :(

Alice has always struggled against daytime sleep, even when exhausted. Some techniques we used:
1) music (obviously you have to experiment but Alice responds particularly well to yodelling CDs!)
2) swaddling
3) shushing noises
4) last resort - dummy. This almost always works with A. but it's controversial I guess. My reasoning has been that as she can't comfort feed from the breast as other babies might, I should give her a chance to suck something if she wants to. And boy does she want to!

The swaddling can be especially good at stopping babies from waking themselves up by flailing around etc, although if Howie is waking up screaming it could be wind troubling him?

― Archel, Monday, 23 April 2007 10:01 (seventeen years ago) link

I think he screams 'cause he's still tired - when he's had a longer sleep he wakes all smiley and happy. He usually wakes after exactly 30 mins so I think he's having trouble switching through stages of his sleep cycle without waking. Some days he will have 4/5 30-min catnaps but they barely seem to keep him going.

Shushing/patting works fine to get him to sleep in his bouncy chair or on me (most of the time, anyway) but it's keeping him asleep past 30 mins (without pushing him round the streets for 2 hours) that is a challenge! Have decided to give up on daytime crib sleep as he doesn't sleep any better there, and in fact it's harder to get him to drop off there. I don't want him associating crib with crying as he sleeps so well there at night!

As for swaddling, he doesn't like having his arms by his sides (they are permanently being waved above his head) so not sure he'd like this - we try to do it with a towel when washing his hair over the bath, and within seconds there are limbs escaping all over the place.

The dummy is a slightly contentious issue in this house. My husband is all for it but I really, really don't want to end up with a baby that needs it to sleep (and parents that have to put it back in his gob 10 times a night). So I use it only if we're out in the pram and he kicks off a long way from home or somewhere he can be fed. He has started sucking his fingers a lot so hopefully soon he'll find his thumb, then he can settle himself with that.

Having said all that, after yesterday's dreadful nap day, this morning he fell asleep in his pram without me even getting it out the door, and is still asleep 45 mins later. So just goes to show, you never can tell what a baby's gonna do.

― Meg Busset, Monday, 23 April 2007 10:17 (seventeen years ago) link

Ophelia didn't (and still doesn't) like swaddling. She prefers to keep her arms above her head and move around.

I can understand you would prefer the daytime naps, but if they are anything like Ophelia: they will learn the difference between day- and nighttime much quicker. Well, she did anyway. I understand you would like a bit of rest but, alas, the baby decides. ;-) THe only thing that really helped for Ophelia: going for a walk with the pram/buggy. Now it doesn't anymore, but when she was a baby she fell asleep the minute we hit the pavement.:-)

― nathalie, Monday, 23 April 2007 10:31 (seventeen years ago) link

Also, one week to the next: One week will be easy, next one difficult. Especially when they go through *jumps* or teething, expect less sleep. :-)

― nathalie, Monday, 23 April 2007 10:32 (seventeen years ago) link

meg, archel and nath; beats does the same thing in the day. i can get her to sleep for 15 minutes MAX in the crib. she'll sleep for hours while im holding her though. actually, she sleeps all day at daycare and all afternoon when i bring her home. i wonder what they do?

hey, lets find and post cute and helpful kid stuff!

if beats could fit into this id buy it in a second. yay, interactive t-shirts!
Interactive pirate t-shirt

also, do you think these would work?
Plush pacifiers

― sunny successor, Monday, 23 April 2007 17:34 (seventeen years ago) link

http://www.babydagny.com/file.aspx?id=1061&w=300&h=300

Or we could just have the orange tabby cat bite on one of the pacifiers and save sixty-five bucks.

― Pleasant Plains, Monday, 23 April 2007 17:54 (seventeen years ago) link

I posted this (the Miracle Blanket) before, but since people are talking about swaddling again...

We also have found that these sleep positioners are good for keeping the babies from rolling all over the place. They won't stop a determined baby, but they help ease them into their first sleep cycle.

That plush pacifier seems a little ridiculously big. It does seem that our boys spend their midnights rolling around their cribs trying (fruitlessly) to aim their mouths at their pacifiers, however.

The boys are now both sleeping "through the night," which means they both wake up at 4am. Ugh. Still, we can't complain... On the nap front, they like about 45 minutes of nap before they get sick of it. Sometimes we can coax them into another 45 minutes, but we have to catch them quickly and stuff the pacifier into their mouth.

― schwantz, Monday, 23 April 2007 17:55 (seventeen years ago) link

Ooo, and speaking of CUTE, we use these for naps and nighttime. They also can be found in super-cute sheep-ish varieties:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/155/331222961_f7acbbf084.jpg

― schwantz, Monday, 23 April 2007 18:00 (seventeen years ago) link

Oooh, sleeping bags, I'm really keen to use them, but I can't find that many that are tog 1, which is recommended for high summer, and seeing as Squirrel is due in august.... or are cotton blankets best for newborns anyway, and start using sleeping bags later?

I bought some cute babygrows from www.greenbaby.co.uk last night, from the vegetable range, surprise surprise!

― Vicky, Monday, 23 April 2007 18:13 (seventeen years ago) link

that link was weird, no idea whether this will work www.greenbaby.co.uk

― Vicky, Monday, 23 April 2007 18:14 (seventeen years ago) link

I hope I am not alone in cooing to this thread. Like, thank god I am at home as I squeal and coo at the babies.

― aimurchie, Monday, 23 April 2007 18:45 (seventeen years ago) link

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/207/470241631_8e2f5de973.jpg

10 seconds before she trashed the keyboard onto the floor :)

― onimo, Monday, 23 April 2007 18:51 (seventeen years ago) link

awwwww

― sunny successor, Monday, 23 April 2007 18:56 (seventeen years ago) link

"I saY Dora iz gRebt and you sayin dRAGonball iz more good is DUMB!"

― Pleasant Plains, Monday, 23 April 2007 19:28 (seventeen years ago) link

Vicky, I think Mothercare do tog 1 sleeping bags. We got one for H but haven't used it (it's tog 2.5 so too warm now), he just has a sheet and (on cooler nights) cellular blanket. Our bedroom stays warm even with no heating and window open, so he doesn't need anything else. He does sometimes kick sheets off but it doesn't seem to bother him.

― Meg Busset, Monday, 23 April 2007 19:38 (seventeen years ago) link

Owen thinking about fish:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/218/467953775_44bc74b9b9.jpg

― schwantz, Monday, 23 April 2007 21:36 (seventeen years ago) link

Not only are your twins adorable but they have fantastic expressions. I was out to dinner with some friends tonight and we kept seeing great toddlers around 1 - 2 years old who were stumbling around like little drunken sailors. So classic.

― ENBB, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 01:54 (seventeen years ago) link

Meg and Archel, can you get someone to drive Howie and Alice around while YOU nap? Usually they drop right off in a moving car.
Someone should make a virtual carseat for fussy babies. It would vibrate slightly to the sound of engine noises while a passing-scenery video played.

― Beth Parker, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 02:08 (seventeen years ago) link

All you new parents have recalled to me the complete visceral joy of napping in the nursing chair with my tiny daughter asleep against my chest.

Which, if I remember the rest of it, was the only way I got to nap for several months.

― Jaq, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 02:13 (seventeen years ago) link

Haha, Onimo, that picture is definitely convincing evidence for Megan's Daddy's-little-girl-ness. You should make her post to this thread.

― ailsa, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 06:12 (seventeen years ago) link

i wonder what they do?

Let'em cry for a bit. Trust me, it doesn't harm the baby. I mean, not if you let'em cry for hours. But they make sure that right after a feed, they usually put'em in the crib and if they cry, it usually stops after a few minutes. That's what I notice in the daycare when I pass the baby section: they don't RUN to the baby when s/he cries. Instinctively I would go for the baby when I pass it by but now I notice that it's actually alright. :-)

― stevienixed, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 06:24 (seventeen years ago) link

Vicky, I am pretty sure that Meg's right & mothercare do 1-tog sleeping bags. I was wondering whether to get one for a July baby but am not sure whether to wait & see how sheets/blankets do. Finally started buying baby clothes and sorting out the nursery at the weekend, which makes it all seem frighteningly close.

― liz, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 08:57 (seventeen years ago) link

I wish I had used sleeping bags right from the start. But then I didn't realize OPhelia would be so anti-swaddling.

― nathalie, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 09:53 (seventeen years ago) link

nath, i kind of fear the 'let them cry it out' strategy, mostly because im afraid she'll go from crying to hysteria. Does/did anyone here use this method with their kids?

me and little miss hold-me-or-ill-cry! :

http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/115/bandmenn6.jpg

― sunny successor, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 19:26 (seventeen years ago) link

also: beeps had her first school picture day today. so cute!

― sunny successor, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 19:27 (seventeen years ago) link

Today we drove to Norwich for Howie to meet his Nanny for the first time. He slept like a log for two hours there and two hours back - and was an angel in between. Which goes to prove Beth's point!

The crying it out method is definitely not for me (though I do know some people swear by it), but I have started to learn to distinguish between a cry that means "Wah! I'm about to fall asleep but not sure how...zzzzzzzzzzzz" and "Wah! I need my mum" - and let him get through the former without rushing in and waking him up trying to help.

― Meg Busset, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 19:39 (seventeen years ago) link

We were all set to let them CIO last night if they woke up before 5am. So, of course, they woke up at 5:05...

― schwantz, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 20:20 (seventeen years ago) link

Schwantz, have you got a big enough bed to co-sleep? We often bring H into bed with us if he wakes around 5 and won't settle, and it works wonders in getting him through til a reasonable hour (ie 7 or later).

― Meg Busset, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 20:25 (seventeen years ago) link

Once we feed them, we can put them back to bed and they'll sleep for another couple hours. We're just trying to get to the next step, where they will sleep until 7 or so, without needing to eat. Owen did it for a while, but now they both seem to want to get up at 5.

It's another case of "if it was just ONE baby..." If it was just one, sleeping until 5 would be no big deal at all - my wife could feed him, and go back to bed. With TWO, she has to feed one, then we put him back to bed and grab the other one (who hopefully isn't fully freaking out by then), feed HIM, and then put him back to bed. All-in-all a 30-45 minute deal at 5am. With this scenario, we are trying to rapidly move them toward sleeping all the way until 7.

When you have two babies, crying-it-out just happens. It's unavoidable, especially when my wife is home alone with them. She can't pick them up both at once, so there are plenty of times where one just has to work it out. So far it hasn't seemed to permanently affect their moods, as you can see from the pictures in this thread.

― schwantz, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 20:52 (seventeen years ago) link

Recent shot of Family in NYC

http://vassifer.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/04/02/museumsubway_2.jpg

― Alex in NYC, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 00:02 (seventeen years ago) link

wow! i remember seeing pics of charlotte(?) when i first started looking at ilx. she's grown so much. they're both insanely beautiful children.

― sunny successor, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 06:31 (seventeen years ago) link

nath, i kind of fear the 'let them cry it out' strategy, mostly because im afraid she'll go from crying to hysteria. Does/did anyone here use this method with their kids?

I think if you have your first (and single) baby, and especially as a mother, you just can't. I think there's some *gene* that yells at you: "GO TO BABY NOW." :-) Now? Well, I'm more relaxed about it. I don't rush towards O. I know this is because once she hit six months she just seemed *stronger*. I think with a second baby, you're bound to be more *relaxed* and know that a little bit of crying won't harm your child at all. That said, I didn't really have to ferberize (until a couple of weeks ago). I did stick to my guns once she was past chickenpox a few weeks ago: she woke up at four am and decided she wanted to have a good ole cry fest. I went to her, firmly said it was sleepy time and put her on her matras (?). She didn't budge. She got the message. But with babies it's a different story. Also in the beginning you don't really know the difference between moaning, FEED ME crying and just plaintive I wanna go sleep crying. But you quickly learn.

Alex, stop overcuting us all. You know you win every time. Well, everyone does here. :-) Seriously, you guys have all such cuties! And, this is so not done, but I don't care, but at the crèche there are some not so cute babies, so I'm not this crazy mother who considers all babies cute. ;-)

― stevienixed, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 06:32 (seventeen years ago) link

thanks, nath. i tried it a little last night but only held out for 5 minutes. beside wanting her to be comforted and happy, just the sound and pitch of the crying can be really upsetting when you're super tired, which we pretty much always are at this point. i might give it another try this afternoon.

― sunny successor, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 12:31 (seventeen years ago) link

i remember seeing pics of charlotte(?) when i first started looking at ilx. she's grown so much. they're both insanely beautiful children.

Yeah, it's funny - I was still thinking of Charlotte as a baby because that's the last time I saw pictures of her posted.

― Nicole, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 15:10 (seventeen years ago) link

Well, the boys woke up at 4:30, and we tried to let them CIO. By 5:15 Owen was WAILING and sniffling, so we gave in, fed them, and put them back to bed. When I left for work at 7:30 they were still sleeping... We're thinking we'll try and give them their pacifiers next time this happens. It's hard to be harsh with them when they sleep from 6:30pm to 4am...

― schwantz, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 16:01 (seventeen years ago) link

9 1/2 hours?? im jealous. beeps has only slept that in the miracle blanket. are you using yours?

schwantz, you must buy your babies these!

https://www.pandapark.com/products/wondertwinpowers_full.jpg

― sunny successor, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 16:27 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm not an expert, but from what I have read about it, 'crying it out' / Ferberising should only be used on older babies (if at all, but that's another debate). Ferber himself recently revised his advice from 6 months to 12 months as the youngest a baby should be before considering this option.

― Meg Busset, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 16:30 (seventeen years ago) link

We stopped swaddling a few weeks ago. It didn't seem to make that big a difference - maybe swaddling gets them used to sleeping and then you can stop? Where did you find those sweet onesies?

My wife has been a total taskmistress with sleep training them, which I think is the key to our ongoing (semi) sanity. We have a strict routine in the evening, and we get them to bed at the same time every night. A lot of it has got to just be luck, though. That, and the 7 ounce bottles of formula they guzzle down before bed each night!

xpost - Meg - I will bring that up with my wife. However, I don't know if Mr Ferber ever had to deal with twins!

― schwantz, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 16:36 (seventeen years ago) link

http://www.pandapark.com/item/Urban-Smalls-Wonder-Twin-Powers-Activate-Retro-Ringer-Onesies/643/c1

they have some cute stuff there but its kind of expensive.

here i am complaining when reports have just come in that beeps slept 8 hours sans swaddle last night.

― sunny successor, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 16:42 (seventeen years ago) link

we try to get 6OZ into her before bed but she rarely makes it through

― sunny successor, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 16:42 (seventeen years ago) link

How old are your twins, Schwantz?

Sunny: eight hours! That's amazing. The longest H has managed so far is about 5 1/2. Is she formula fed? Apparently they often sleep through sooner than breastfed babes.

Would recommend 'The No-Cry Sleep Solution' by Elizabeth Pantley for lots of useful hints & tips on encouraging good sleep habits without leaving them to cry it out.

― Meg Busset, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 16:47 (seventeen years ago) link

shes a formula baby but, i dont know how she knows at this age, she seems to be able to tell the diff between night and day in that she doesnt sleep in the day for more than 10-15 minutes at a time but is really good at night. she'll hit at least 6 hours most nights, sometimes 8 or 9, but that has been with the miracle blanket. last night is surprising to me because its the first time she slept unswaddled since we left the hospital.

― sunny successor, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 17:06 (seventeen years ago) link

I swaddled Spencer for as long as he'd let me, and iirc, that was until about 7 months when there was NOTHING that would stop him from getting one arm free, and if you've ever swaddled a baby, you know that once that first arm is free, you've had it.

I wasn't ever a big advocate of letting him cry it out, and didn't start even really trying it seriously until he was at least 9 months - I got good at figuring out what it was he wanted and so didn't feel that it was ever wholly necessary.

I think you sorta have to figure out what works for you and your baby and do that - people will give you advice until it's coming out your ears, but each baby will do what it's going to do, the end.

― luna, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 20:13 (seventeen years ago) link

re: the wubbanubs posted above; our friends daughter loved hers, and we were really wanting one while ian was going through colic and unconsolable crying; alas, they were out of stock everywhere, going for big money on ebay, and we just never got one. he never wound up taking to pacifiers as a result, and now doesn't need one, thank god.

ferberizing: we did this, basically, at 6 months. it worked. took three weeks though. I think we'd have gone insane if we hadn't. also, moving him out of our bedroom into his own room was key; he actually slept much better in there, I think we're noisy sleepers.

― akm, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 22:22 (seventeen years ago) link

also, that pantley book didn't work for us or anyone we know, but it was psycholigically comforting for us and helped us segue into ferberizing. i hadn't heard he adjusted the age to 12 months; our pediatrician recommended we do it before 9 months; if we'd waited this long we would all be dead, surely.

― akm, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 22:26 (seventeen years ago) link

Another recent one of Charlotte.... looking somewhat Cold War-ish

http://vassifer.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/04/01/img_5565.jpg

― Alex in NYC, Thursday, 26 April 2007 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

Meg - the twins are coming up on 6 months old. I think it's very true that everyone should just follow their instincts a bit with this stuff.

― schwantz, Thursday, 26 April 2007 02:03 (seventeen years ago) link

In keeping with Alex's monochrome theme (and Charlotte is a wonder, btw):

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/200/473255895_9bb5f07827.jpg

― Michael Jones, Thursday, 26 April 2007 06:27 (seventeen years ago) link

shes a formula baby but, i dont know how she knows at this age,

formula is *heavier* whereas breast milk digests much quicker than formula, hence the difference in sleep pattern.

we moved ophelia to her own room at four months: she slept through the night almost immediately (read: second night). i highly recommend it. i did feel a bit guilty but on the other hand it just felt right. guilty because noone i knew had done it at that age and friends/family said: KEEP HER WHILE LONGER. but like i said, it just worked.

― nathalie, Thursday, 26 April 2007 07:59 (seventeen years ago) link

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