scientology & celebrities

basically doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me - pretty sure it's happened a bunch of times already in scientology iirc

http://i45.tinypic.com/2jbga0.jpg

are there really people out there who don't know enough about scientology to actually be bamboozled into joining it? my sense is that they start with the most banal new-agey bromides and only commence unloading the weirder stuff once they've got you invested financially and otherwise.

it's my understanding that initially you learn to do things like stare into someone's eyes for an indefinite period of time w/o blinking or to self-induce OBE's. so you can imagine how stuff like that might be seductive to some ppl. it's sort of low-level occultic techniques that probably engender a sense of power over other ppl which is doubtlessly reinforced by the whole scientology framework of us against them + being part of this rarefied elite of ppl saving the world in the foreground of this grand cosmic scenario. plus as just1n3 mentions i guess as a celeb you get treated accordingly

w/o blinking

is this true? i know of other 'being with' exercises done in other contemporaneous encounter groups, but had nothing to do w/ not blinking. it was about looking into someone's eyes for extended period w/out having normal social mediation stuff going on. kinda like two-person meditation.

disenchantment with a church's leadership/organization while still believing in its core tenets/beliefs is common across all religions too

basically doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me - pretty sure it's happened a bunch of times already in scientology iirc

Sit back and watch the perfect storm of 2012...

I know that. but the core tenet/belief of this church is ... belief in the leadership/organization.

er xp

You're right that it wouldn't matter much if the practices didn't involve child labor, torturous detention, etc.

tell it to martin luther, shakey

can we get to heaven/clear w/o giving all our money to rome/int base?

mordy, yeah, every account i've read of the initial courses involves a thing where you have to look into someone's eyes for a given time (i think it's an hour??) w/o blinking. you have to start over anytime your trainer person catches you blinking. eventually most people end up having an out-of-body experience ("exteriorizing" in scientology jargon) while trying to do this

there's a good breakfast spot nearby where the view is the back of a large scientology building and there's all these weird identically dressed scientologists scurrying around wearing black dress pants and gray t-shirts. looks like a really boring ikea or something.

can we get to heaven/clear w/o giving all our money to rome/int base?

That's exactly what the Sea Org captain's email that started this schism is about, quoting Hubbard's own words against any kind of lavish construction or hi dues.

like why would they stalk some randomers out of nowhere? seems like a really ineffective tactic tbh!

LOL. Like ring at your door and try to make you believe there's a god.

i kinda think scientology is gonna be over within the next 50 years -- i wonder if similar religious organizations can possibly survive w/ the sort of media attention + fact checking u can do in 2012. like in 0BC, Jesus rose from the dead which is insane but in 2012 what kind of definitive proof can u give one way or another, esp if you want to believe (and double especially if your family has believed for the past 50 generations or whatever). but in 1940 or whatever Hubbard lied about getting a medal and everyone knows. it might just not be feasible.

i do think that in like 100 or 200 years scientology is going to be a super interesting case study for some enterprising graduate student. the rise and fall of an american religious cult in the 21st century. i would read it.

most similar organization I can think of is the Mormon Church. which is clearly not going anywhere but also started under different circumstances, OWNS A STATE etc.

yeah i think at first its more like amway/dale carnegie how to be a better you dianetics be fabulous and get what you want out of life (like EST) and then whammo! before you know it ten hour grillings and alien lore.

if it weren't for the fact that they're legit just evil fucking scumbags, i'd have nothing but affection for a group of cultists who believe that exorcising alien thetans from your body is the way to achieve success in the world. it's the super-evil, even by contemporary religious standards, that makes me root for their utter collapse.

Vicisti, Seaorgaee

yeah i said that upthread. i am totally for a sci-fi religion. i would even go their churches if it were just cosmik majik and cool imagery and aliens. sadly, its just a con. and a nasty one at that.

i kinda think scientology is gonna be over within the next 50 years

wow, you are being generous. i'm not sure i can even give it five

I can't even tell you how many dvds and books Scientology sends the library every year that I end up throwing away. They must have money to burn.

there isn't like something special about the way scientology recruits that is distinguishable from the way numerous other organizations, legit + otherwise, convince ppl to follow their mission and get onboard. whether it's a political party, an environmental organization, an established religious one, a fraternal or communal org, etc.

you're right but at the same time i do think there's something unique about "brainwashing"--obviously any ideology or belief system is gonna try to immunize itself against others but "brainwashing" is like an extra level of paranoia and isolation. so it's not "look how dumb and evil those Others are" but "dont even speak to or think about those Others." for that reason it's probably especially fragile too.

like it's less about convincing and persuasion as removing itself from those domains entirely.

are republicans brainwashed? like, where do you draw the line between being convinced of your opinion and unwilling to listen to alternatives and being brainwashed? i'm just skeptical of the term 'brainwashed' in general bc it assumes certain things about malleability of human mind, and mind control, and power + stuff that i think is a) not scientifically proven, b) kinda philosophically mindless, and c) better explained by other terms we already use all the time to describe the same thing. it's just that brainwashed has a special cache bc i think parents who have kids in cults like to believe that there's some kind of mind control at work, as opposed to normal human stupidity, vapidness, already existing susceptibility to terrible things, etc.

Well I don’t know if it’s brainwashing but in reality tv for example there’s something to the notion of the reality bubble, people who are cut off from everyone they know and everything else and they lose a proper perspective on things, which is why you get a dozen people freaking out over and investing a lot into some dude on ‘the bachelor’ or some girl on ‘the bachelorette’ after knowing them for two weeks. It definitely occurs and it seems scientology uses similar “tactics” for lack of a better term. It seems like it might be something they intentionally do rather than collateral damage from the very manner in which people enter into the church.

most churches brainwash people, don't they? or most religions.

well... no

i agree with you Mordy, i guess i just want to keep the term around as the extreme end of things. it's an especially powerful hermetic and self-confirming logic. Like, even rush limbaugh will play clips of an Obama speech to filter it through his worldview but i dont know if a brainwashed person even bothers to do that much. scientology doesn't seem to go out and defend itself so much as want to keep everything secret and "apart" from that media environment. maybe im talking in circles here, though.

they do if the word brainwash just means allowing yourself to be convinced of things you may have previously not believed. if you take the word at face value tho - that your brain is being washed by a second party - then no. no one has ever been brainwashed imho ever (except maybe through the use of drugs, torture, idk, but certainly not otherwise w/out participation of the washed). xxp

i guess i mean that rather than try to go out and convince and persuade the wider world, the cultish "brainwashing" stuff seeks to separate off from the wider world.

but agreed the word taken literally in the pod-people sense is silly.

how does that differ from the echo chamber critique tho? the density of the seal?

The active and enforced separation for non-believing family members.

from, that is.

^^

arent you even introduced to the doctrines of scientology gradually? it's not like you start going to church and then a year later find out about Jesus dying for your sins. They tell you right off!

i suspect that something like "brainwashing" does exist, but it isn't just the tendency of some people to cling to seemingly irrational belief. cult-like organizations often prey on emotionally fragile people in desperate circumstances. i'd say that ordinary indoctrination begins to cross over into something like "brainwashing" when such individuals are deliberately isolated from friends, family, work, familiar environments and routines, and are thus rendered completely dependent. it continues when the dependent subject is subjected to a sustained program of conditioning techniques, including: sleep deprivation, regimentation of activity, the strategic granting and withdrawl of affection and basic needs, intense and constant group pressure to conform, extremely prolonged ritual observance, deliberate infliction of "cleansing" psychological trauma, punishment for doctrinal deviance, etc.

"cult-like organizations often prey on emotionally fragile people in desperate circumstances."

yeah, they are called churches!

but okay i won't use the word brainwash when talking about most religions. mass psychosis? mass delusion?

Not only is there an element of imposed isolation to Scient - sometimes on boats out at sea, even! - but also an element of blackmail as well; extensive confession is a precept, apparently, and the church is reportedly not afraid to use it as leverage. Also, leaving or disparaging the church typically invites a vindictive reaction, and some in church can be particularly petty, as people in positions of power are wont to me. This stuff is all beyond the pale for a so-called religion, with tax exempt status, no less. The horror stories from escapees -blowers? - are predictably, well, horrific.

"sleep deprivation, regimentation of activity, the strategic granting and withdrawl of affection and basic needs, intense and constant group pressure to conform, extremely prolonged ritual observance, deliberate infliction of "cleansing" psychological trauma, punishment for doctrinal deviance, etc."

church bake sales can be brutal!

Like, imagine the Catholic church requiring confession, but then compiling that info to use against you at a later date. That's awful.

i mean that list could easily describe some regular old religions. hardcore buddhist sects, hardcore xian and islamic sects, etc.

Operative word being "hardcore," which is to say, quite rarified, which is also to say, very cult-like.

as an outsider, most churches and religions seem cult-like to me. they just do. i wish them well. i'm not anti exactly. but they scare me.

Oh, totally. Be afraid. But some are more insidious and/or conniving than others. Like, for example, profit-driven religions such as the so-called religion in question.

Bush and Gore, what's the difference?

scott seward: scared of religion, curious about ghosts

*files away for future reference*