Going To Law School

What's the best thing I can do to start preparing myself considering I've been out of school five years and working kind of an easy job?

(1)learn and practice how to take law school exams.

(2) drop some money on a few emmanuels for the first-year classes -- and actually READING them -- so that you aren't befuddled by all of the Socratic hide-the-ball crap you will be exposed to during the next 3 years of yer life.

ugh, I applied to Cardozo and al lthat shit - unfortuantely one of my schools kept losing my transcripts, so my app won't be complete until next week. Waitlist 4 me : { : { : [[[[[ :{;

also, is yer cardozo scholarship conditioned on maintaining a certain GPA/class rank? i was offered a deal like that from seton hall -- essentially, 1st year totally paid for (except living expenses) -- but i passed on it.

that, and the fact that the typical Seton Hall student = EVERY bad stereotype about north jersey in the flesh. but that's just me!

yeah, conditional - a little over half tuition paid first year, second year have to stay in about top 40% of class to maintain full scholarship, and there's a sliding scale after that.

I'm hoping to get offered money at another school to give me some bargaining leverage.

congrats on Cardozo at least. I think my chances are a bit slim at this point with apps in so late :[ ]

I'm hoping to get offered money at another school to give me some bargaining leverage.

ha -- i tried that shit w/ both RU-Newark and Fordham. both told me to go pound sand (fordham b/c they think that their shit doesn't stink b/c they get all the folks who REALLY wanna be @ Columbia or NYU; rutgers-newark b/c they were already super-cheap and don't have as much money to throw around as seton hall had).

doesn't hurt to try, but you may not succeed.

Don't despair. First, you still have a shot. Second, you can always go somewhere lower on your list, work hard and transfer. I met a girl who (in spite of obviously being very bright) got a 143 on her LSAT and could only get into Widener. She kept in close touch with the Temple admissions office, did well her first semester, and was able to transfer second year.

So considering you have better numbers than that to begin with, you probably have options.

My friend at Fordham Law said like 90% of the people there are embarrassed and ashamed that they're at Fordham; Columbia and NYU were their real schools of choice.

fuk I'll be really happy if I get into Fordham.

That description makes it sound kind of like Rutgers undergrad - it's a good school with a lousy atmosphere because everyone there wanted to go somewhere better.

I only applied to the 5 schools I really want to go to; I don't want to gamble my current financial freedom on a school I'm lukewarm about for a chance to transfer somewhere else. If all else fails I can apply next year, but I'll by 26 by Fall 2009

I met a girl who (in spite of obviously being very bright) got a 143 on her LSAT and could only get into Widener. She kept in close touch with the Temple admissions office, did well her first semester, and was able to transfer second year.

that's especially impressive, considering that widener has a C-curve (which TOTALLY fucks up the chances of a lot of that school's graduates).

From the sound of it, it was her continued show of interest in Temple that made the difference. Numbers aren't everything.

What's the best thing I can do to start preparing myself considering I've been out of school five years and working kind of an easy job?

Take the next statement to heart:

Law school is about four letters - I-R-A-C. Issue, rule, application, and conclusion. You spot the issue, you recite the relevant rule or rules, you apply those rules to the facts, and arrive at your conclusion. Your grades will depend - to the tune of 95% - on your ability to adhere to and succesfully manipulate this formula for your exam answers. So, from day one, do the following: Fuck all the inter-personal bullshit, don't try to score points with the professors or engage in any of the petty, middle school level assholery. Learn the rules, practice applying them to facts, and repeat.

That description makes it sound kind of like Rutgers undergrad - it's a good school with a lousy atmosphere because everyone there wanted to go somewhere better.

Man, if I had a nickle for EVERY time I thought to myself "Assholes. I CHOSE to go to Rutgers. Stop pissing in my coffee"....Those over-entitled jerks didn't realize the huge value or just objective quality that Rutgers offers as a university.

i chose it too, btw

add BLAM's advice to mine -- when you learn and practice taking law school exams, apply IRAC. there are definitely books out there (and probably webpages) if you are puzzled about it.

I have some experience with appellate opinions in my work so I essentially know what you're talking about.

I have some experience with appellate opinions in my work so I essentially know what you're talking about.

This is going to sound SO condescending and shitty, but here goes -

Forget everything about the PRACTICE of law prior to your first year in law school. You can remember and reconnect therewith once you score a great summer associate job. All you need to do is learn the IRAC method, drill it into your brane, and make it so EVERY SINGLE ANSWER YOU GIVE TO ANYTHING is in the form of the IRAC.

I am not kidding.

The actual PRACTICE of law is SO much cooler - you actually get to use some imagination, you get to collaborate with others, you get to learn from others who aren't trying to hide things from you all the time, you get a paycheck instead of an interest-incurring loan check once a semester.

LAW SCHOOL is really about learning 1) the rules and where they come from and 2) how to apply them to facts. There is no magic formula and prior experience, while helpful as a source of perspective on things, won't help you when you get your first multiple hearsay question on your Evidence exam.

They really are two entirely different worlds - and thank god.

The extra years you have will help - you will automatically be more mature, able to separate school and life-otherwise, and will most likely be more adept at relating to the professors and others at the school, which will help.

But it will not help you in exams, and thus will not help you with your grades.

Treat it as a 10 hour a day job for three years, and you'll do well.

o yeah I know, the only sense in which I meant my experience might help me is that I already know what issue, rule, application and conclusion are and have read a whole bunch of appellate decisions where those concepts are (obviously) used. Like I have a basic idea of how these opinions proceed from I to R to A to C.

Word. Didn't mean to break pedantic on you.

I just got wait-listed at Penn -- does anyone have a good handle on how the wait=listing thing works and whether I can really help my chances by submitting additional materials?

dunno about law school, but my experience with wait listing involves waiting, sadly. i'm assuming they gave you a date when you will find out again and you basically just have to wait until then, and i guess they judge upon space issues and merit, but i don't they would accept stuff you sent them and/or consider them

they said in the e-mail that I could submit additional materials such as updated transcripts/resumes (which doesn't really apply to me) or an additional essay.

They also didn't give me a date >:(

then i would probably submit something and hope it worked but you never really know

yikes re: date, that's kind of harsh

i guess that means that they are waiting too see how many people actually enroll? but that wouldn't be fair to the waitlisted people really

Penn. is fantastic! Good luck with the wait-listing process.

uhg, my last transcript -finally- processed today--my schools have been waiting for weeks after requesting my report to get it.

I only had the money to apply to 4 schools, so ... I'm not sure what chances I have at this point.

Yeah, the processing took weeks for me too.

hmmm... having been laid off, if I don't get into a shcool this year, what then?

Is 26 too old to start law school?

fuk no I'll be almost 29

You could still probably get another application in to a surefire safety school if you're really worried, work your ass off, and transfer. Do it at CUNY or some other cheap public school if you don't want the financial burden.

Anyway I wouldn't give up on getting in yet. I think I heard from Cardozo like one day after going into deep despair that no one was going to accept me.

Cool. I applied to Cardozo, but my other recommender (who promised to send the thing forever ago), said he'd fax it last week, but has yet to do so. It's like one crazy thing after another.

Are you going to go to Cardozo?

Good chance of it. I'll wait to hear from Fordham at least or maybe see if I get a full ride at any lesser schools.

Goo luck. It'd be awesome to get into Fordham (even if it's the "lesser" school to most of the people who go there); I'd be happy with a Cardozo at this point ... they did give me a fee waiver. I just need that one other recommendation.

congrats on getting wait-listed @ penn -- hopefully you'll get in (if that's where you really want to go & any of yer other top schools don't let you in).

i also started l-school @ age 29. that age is SO not "too old" (our class valedictorian was a 40-something).

Good luck to you both. Just remember that being a lawyer isn't as glamorous as it may appear.

don't worry, it doesn't appear even slightly glamorous to me

Yeah, same here. I'm hoping it's a (slightly) more fulfilling trade than permalance writing, especially since the mix of postgrad life + freelance + ultra competitive, anti-creative NYC has made a stable, normal life pretty hard

My point -- obvious as it is -- is that you should go to law school only if you really want to be a lawyer. Too many people go because they don't know what else to do or because others around them are going. And too many of those people end up as competent-to-exceptionally skilled attorneys, but stuck in a long career drift and often terribly unhappy.

I like being an attorney, and I've seen several sides of it, as an associate in a 500-lawyer old-world firm and as a partner in a small firm. But I know many lawyers who aren't happy or just seem lost. And your life, and your happiness, are too valuable to trifle with.

But as I say, I like being a lawyer, and aspects of the job can be very satisfying and creative. So, again, best of luck in law school and beyond.

And too many of those people end up as competent-to-exceptionally skilled attorneys, but stuck in a long career drift and often terribly unhappy.

I have a bad feeling I'm going to end up in this category, but I think I'd probably wind up like that whatever I do and I don't have any better ideas.

And of course I am hoping that I turn out to be wrong about that.

Then consider using the degree as a springboard into another career. Some of my law school friends went off to write showtunes. Law degrees help you in lots of fields. Bottom line: Be happy and satisfied. Life's too short.

Is 26 too old to start law school?

no

(xpost) Yeah that's actually a strong possibility for me and one of the ideas that first got me to consider law school - I thought I might use it as a springboard into an arts-related career that actually had some legs and wasn't something flimsy like P.R.

Oh yeah, I got WL at GW (I'm writing them a letter of continued interest), and in at American with scholarship money. Still waiting from Cardozo and Fordham, etc. :S

A friend of mine graduated from American magna cum laude, and he thought it was a great law school. Are you going to go to Cardozo or Fordham over American, if you get into either/both of them?

Fordham and GW probably, Cardozo it'd be a split ... my life is in NYC, but American might draw me to DC.

go to Fordham

actually don't go anywhere