LAY OFF NATALIE MERCHANT

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you couldn't tear 7-year-old me away from my cassette copy of our time in eden (which, along with the 10k maniacs unplugged disc, is the only recording of theirs i've ever owned) with the jaws of life. were you not a fan of that one, nitsuh?

― joseph (joseph), Sunday, 7 August 2005 20:18 (eighteen years ago) link

(also, not having heard the early stuff, i wonder if AMG's comparison of them to gang of four is at all warranted)

― joseph (joseph), Sunday, 7 August 2005 20:19 (eighteen years ago) link

Bimble, were they remixed? I wonder. I saw original copies of those records for the first evah recently and they are cool looking.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 7 August 2005 20:19 (eighteen years ago) link

Listening to Hope Chest I keep thinking that if Rob Buck were in some sort of critically-credible band he'd be considered one of the great guitar players of the 80s.

haha he's a terrible guitar player though! there are bum notes on unplugged that even the usual "live album" post-production sleight of hand couldn't sweep under the rug.

― my favorite cover band, crystal shit (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 7 August 2005 20:24 (eighteen years ago) link

re the gang of four comparision... ehhh, a little. i'd throw the specials in there somewhere. and there's some cocteau twins/siouxsie in natalie's high-tea euro-affectations, maybe even a little mark e. smith in her awkward verbal attack.

― my favorite cover band, crystal shit (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 7 August 2005 20:38 (eighteen years ago) link

I really can't stand their stuff anymore, but during my sophomore year of high school ('89) they were the first college "alternative" band I loved, but, man, except for Peter Murphy, no other adolescent infatuation has been so rejected so soundly by yours truly.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 7 August 2005 20:42 (eighteen years ago) link

they're a difficult band to love, that's for sure.

― my favorite cover band, crystal shit (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 7 August 2005 20:46 (eighteen years ago) link

If you guys haven't heard the early records, though, they are a different ball of wax.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 7 August 2005 21:00 (eighteen years ago) link

I have heard them, and the wax is still sticky and not very tasty. (Much love to "My Mother The War" and "Planned Obsolescence" though.)

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 7 August 2005 21:07 (eighteen years ago) link

i love how she keeps mispronouncing the big words.

― my favorite cover band, crystal shit (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 7 August 2005 21:08 (eighteen years ago) link

I haven't heard Hope Chest in many years but I remember liking "Tension" and "Orange" the best?

― Aaron A., Sunday, 7 August 2005 21:40 (eighteen years ago) link

Not only does Natalie inflect the English language as if she grew up speaking some Polynesian tongue, but she writes lyrics to match, lyrics which from the crib sheet I'd adjudge the most sophomoric poetry-of-pretension to hit pop music since lysergic acid was in flower. Random stanza: "Patrons in attendance/To disarm a common myth/Homage paid to the victor of immortality/Cloaked in bold tones." Jesus.

― BEST DESCRIPTION EVER (M Matos), Sunday, 7 August 2005 21:58 (eighteen years ago) link

People see me I'm a challenge to your balance
I'm over your heads how I confound you
And astound you
To know I must be one of the wonders...

See, she WAS singing about herself!

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 7 August 2005 21:59 (eighteen years ago) link

That Christgau review, one of the first I'd read, made me realize that it was love at first sight.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 7 August 2005 22:01 (eighteen years ago) link

Though it kind of reaffirms that I wish he didn't put a grade next to that sum-up. Cuz some people see those lyrics and go 'OMG that's MY kind of sopoforic, where's my wallet?!' while others will appreciate the warning. He's got such a descriptive knack that the quantitative part is just unnecessary.

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 7 August 2005 22:05 (eighteen years ago) link

His review is cloaked in bold tones.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 7 August 2005 22:06 (eighteen years ago) link

oh come on the grade is the f'ing PUNCH LINE!

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Sunday, 7 August 2005 22:08 (eighteen years ago) link

(thinks a minute more) but yeah point taken, actually. hataz don't realize what they're missing, he's as good a yardstick against as for

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Sunday, 7 August 2005 22:10 (eighteen years ago) link

more like the "ba-dum CRASH!"

btw 'sopoforic' is sophomoric and soporific put together, I just invented it.

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 7 August 2005 22:11 (eighteen years ago) link

To describe Low?

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 7 August 2005 22:18 (eighteen years ago) link

sopoforic is french for spork

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 7 August 2005 22:29 (eighteen years ago) link

sofrito porridge

― my favorite cover band, crystal shit (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 7 August 2005 22:55 (eighteen years ago) link

Christgau is too quick with the cynical "oh, it's like sophomoric college student poetry" line there. I mean, they're just song lyrics. Too easy to just ASSUME that someone writing extended abstract lyrics like Natalie was doing then (as opposed to hip, chic, minimalist abstract lyrics) is taking themselves really seriously and is pretentious.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:14 (eighteen years ago) link

or to FIGURE IT OUT

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:17 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't know what you mean, Michaelangelo.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:21 (eighteen years ago) link

TS: easy to ASSUME vs. easy to FIGURE OUT these things

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:22 (eighteen years ago) link

I see. But do you see my point? Why are Natalie's abstract lyrics viewed as pretentious because they're lengthy whereas Oh-OK's abstract lyrics are not pretentious because they're cool and minimal?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:24 (eighteen years ago) link

uh because Oh-OK's lyrics mean something concrete maybe?

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:25 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't know. I was thinking of the song "Choukoutien." Maybe they're not a great example. Christgau dislikes all abstract lyrics?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:28 (eighteen years ago) link

Sorry, Tim. You gotta be, as Xgau said, an acid casualty to look for any kind of sense in the excerpted lyrics. And it's a context thing: I know the song in which you'll find them! It's crap!

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:28 (eighteen years ago) link

no one who likes "Solar Prestige a Gammon" as much as Christgau does could be said to dislike abstract lyrics. so I suspect it's something else. (xpost)

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:29 (eighteen years ago) link

Natalie's lyrics in that song are pretentious because they're a failed attempt at poetry. It's pretty obvious.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:29 (eighteen years ago) link

Looking at it now, that song's actually not very abstract at all. It's about a famous Spanish bullfighter named Manolete. I maintain that if Oh-OK had written a song about Manolete and it had hip minimalist lyrics Christgau mighta loved it.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:36 (eighteen years ago) link

Where's Billy Mackenzie when you need him.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:40 (eighteen years ago) link

"hip minimalist lyrics"--what does this even mean?

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:41 (eighteen years ago) link

Recitations of the alphabet. Which, in fact, Mackenzie did once, so my cri du coeur has a relevance I now realize.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:42 (eighteen years ago) link

"Homage paid to the victor of immortality/Cloaked in bold tones."

Dude, what's fuckin' minimalist about this? It works in as verse, not as song lyrics.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:43 (eighteen years ago) link

And combined with Merchant's high-pitched, ethereal voice it was well nigh unbearable.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:45 (eighteen years ago) link

no, he's saying that isn't minimalist, and that if something equally completely sophomoric and nonsensical and pretentious had, I guess, been written by a CBGB's habitue that Christgau would've loved it. there are loads of negative reviews of just those kinds of things that blow this theory out of the water.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:46 (eighteen years ago) link

But I doubt Christgau would have defended them anyway. Tom Verlaine wrote some goddamn abstract lyrics, but they didn't use thesaurus verbs like "clothed."

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:48 (eighteen years ago) link

Ah, but he loved Oh-OK (who are actually a pretty decent band with whom to compare early 10,000 Maniacs). I SUSPECT that people could not (and still cannot) tolerate Natalie because of the Romantic connotations of her lyrics. It was so obvious that she was trying to be Lord Byron!

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:49 (eighteen years ago) link

I doubt Christgau's purported aversion to Byron, Shelley, and Keats is to blame for his Maniacs hate.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:50 (eighteen years ago) link

after all, he liked Kate Bush and Bryan Ferry.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:50 (eighteen years ago) link

that must be why he hated Patti Smith and Joni Mitchell so much, then, eh? (xpost)

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:51 (eighteen years ago) link

haha "thesaurus verbs"! can I steal this Alfred?

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:52 (eighteen years ago) link

Right, but Kate Bush is goofier maybe? And so doesn't lend herself to these assumptions of pretentiousness.

x-post

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:52 (eighteen years ago) link

um, no one in their right mind would call Kate Bush unpretentious!

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:53 (eighteen years ago) link

If I'm feeling persnickety I could pretend to wince at "Marquee Moon"'s opening line ("I remember how the darkness doubled"); but the twin guitar interplay is so compelling that by the time those lyrics come around I'm in their sway.

With my blessing, Matos.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:53 (eighteen years ago) link

also no one in their right mind would call Patti Smith "goofy" either

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:55 (eighteen years ago) link

But she is goofy! She's fuckin' daft! We love her because she's full of shit (and hate her for the same reasons).

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:57 (eighteen years ago) link

Skipping 356 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

I will add that In My Tribe was one of the 10 tapes that I had when I had a 10-cassette container and I don't think I could listen to it today. Being reminded of the period of my life when 10K Maniacs was a full 1/10 of my listening (beyond radio) honestly scares me, do not wish to revisit middle school. Even thinking about "Peace Train" makes my stomach turn.

― Piggy Lepton (La Lechera), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 17:05 (four months ago) link

I revisited Blind Man's Zoo y'day; my sense/recollection was that it would be kind of a drag (due to the heavy-handed lyrics), but the songs are good!! (especially in the first half). Great melodies & performances, as usual. "Hateful Hate" is a definite skip – but other than that, it's not an LP to sleep on... I think its bad rep is somewhat unjustified.

― This field is required (morrisp), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 17:20 (four months ago) link

Not only does Nat lay all her cards on the table in "Headstrong" (re: the pointlessness of trying to change her mind about anything), the "rock anthem" guitar sound on that song is pretty remarkable / unique for the band.

― This field is required (morrisp), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 18:04 (four months ago) link

It's been sitting on my shelf pretty much neglected since 1987. I'll give it another try, but my interest in them post-Wishing Chair wanes considerably.

― Large, Complex, Detailed but Irrefutable POST (Dan Peterson), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 19:03 (four months ago) link

"Hateful Hate" is a stupid song, though.

― stuffing your suit pockets with cold, stale chicken tende (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 19:07 (four months ago) link

Well I said it's a skip!

― This field is required (morrisp), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 19:10 (four months ago) link

(Dan P. – if you limited tolerance for even In My Tribe, I doubt a revisit of these albums will really move the needle for you...)

― This field is required (morrisp), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 19:11 (four months ago) link

Well I said it's a skip!

― This field is required (morrisp),

Looks liked I skipped your post!

― stuffing your suit pockets with cold, stale chicken tende (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 19:14 (four months ago) link

that early maniacs vibe is like a stoned altered images. good stuff

― J Edgar Noothgrush (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 19:23 (four months ago) link

make it stop make it stop make it stop 😭

― Deflatormouse, Wednesday, 29 November 2023 20:31 (four months ago) link

God's own creation

― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 21:16 (four months ago) link

Stoned Altered Images OTM

― Large, Complex, Detailed but Irrefutable POST (Dan Peterson), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 23:46 (four months ago) link

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