Brave -- Pixar's 2012 release

i suppose i shouldn't be surprised theres no ilx consensus on this, but i thought there was one and only one conclusion to make after watching this movie: disney has taken over pixars animation infrastructure for their own megamarketing purposes, and replaced pixar's excellent writers their own lame princess-story-factory hack department. ugh, and those lame songs they kept randomly inserting for no good reason except to sell cd's of the stupid soundtrack! i mean, how exactly was this movie any different from every other 90's-and-on disney princess movie ever made? do we really need to turn pixar into disney II?

i mean, ok ok, brave wasn't the worst movie i've ever seen. i liked the queen-trapped-in-a-bears-body stuff at least. but this seemed sub-sub-par for pixar, even compared to cars 2. sigh. pixar films have been a yearly dose of awesome for like a decade now, and i'm v sad to think it's all shot to hell now

:_:

1000% how i felt

eh i think the problem with brave had more to do with problems at the top wrt shifting roles and direction? the director got canned halfway thru right

also 50% of the complaints would've been calmed by keeping the original title (the bear and the bow) and NOT hiding the fact that the movie is about a bunch of fucking bears in the commercials

Yeah it's nothing to do with Disney. Change in directors was quite a shift. I liked that they kept the bear bits out of the trailer!

the fact that Brave isn't universally liked makes me wonder about the Animated Feature Oscar category this year. I enjoyed Brave and really liked the mother/daughter emphasis, but at the same time I'd love to see ParaNorman win and Laika get some recognition + prestige boost.

and replaced pixar's excellent writers their own lame princess-story-factory hack department. ugh, and those lame songs they kept randomly inserting for no good reason except to sell cd's of the stupid soundtrack! i mean, how exactly was this movie any different from every other 90's-and-on disney princess movie ever made?

i like how the word "princess" is repeated twice here

i must admit i haven't seen much pixar but since I've seen Toy Story, Up and most of the Incredibles - supposed highpoints the more mouth-foaming "WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH MY PIXAR?" complaints seem really dubious.

like, is there someone who doesn't like brave compared to other mother/daughter movies? or is it just dudes who are like WHAT'S A PRINCESS DOING IN MY MAGICAL SEMI-SILENT CHILDHOOD SHIT?

if you're going to clown on this for being a re-tread of old disneys, the princess comparison is hardly the one to make -- disney has literally already done a movie where someone gets turned into a bear!

Xp nah, because Tangled was actually really good as Disney princess stuff goes, much better than Brave.

"not as good as tangled" is possible, never seen it.

though that's one of those "old witch hates young beauty, young beauty teams up with action dude" movies, right? mom dies in the first reel?

again, i feel like most of the people mad at brave couldn't give half a fuck about the aspect fans seem to like the most

forks upthread actually sheds a tear for the wasted mother/daughter story, but he seems disappointed with every aspect of brave to a ridiculous extreme, i.e.

stupidly predictable plot twists. one of the best things about pixar is that they always step to the table smarter and more considered of their story than you are.

toy story ended with the moral that you have to be nice to your toys, basically equating an irreverent but creative kid with dr mengele. up ended with a character being made into a threatening murderer just so they could have an action climax. it's a credit to these films that i didn't predict how they'd end, because they were shitty endings.

i'm also under the impression that most people like the first half of wall-e way more than the second

tangled has its own weird mother/daughter issues, as the witch is pretending to be rapunzel's mother and has raised her from infancy, but is of course selfish and evil and doesn't have her best interests at heart. but the witch's selfishness is played for laughs at the beginning (she's modeled after a broadway diva), and rapunzel is frustrated by her life but pretty tolerant of her mother as a person, so it's kind of jarring when the end of the movie gets all traditional and trope-y -- kidnapped princess realizes she's been kidnapped, "defeats" evil fake mother, lovingly reunites with parents she's never known, etc. a friend of mine hated the movie because she thought the message was irresponsible, like "defy your overbearing mother because she's probably evil and entrust your safety to strange dudes."

croup i get where you're going with this but imo the real tragedy of brave is that there is a genuine and powerful mother/daughter story buried under a pile of cheap hackwork, and the final cut seems to genuinely believe that the hack crap is the Important Part.

but "cheap hackwork" compared to what? there's definitely a lot of broad comedy (and i personally like how every dude in this movie is an obnoxious but well-intentioned oaf) and familiar climax, but christ, how "tragic" is that?

i'll admit i'm a pixar agnostic but i really don't see how the sillier aspects of this make it such a horror compared to the movie where a rat teaches a critic that you can't judge art

comparison would be stronger if you'd gone with the second half of up or wall-e. ratatouille is a masterpiece and the lack of any distinctive vision is exactly what's wrong with brave.

(nb i'm a brad bird stan tho i'd also concede he's never topped the iron giant and i'd grudgingly take brave over his sole venture into live action)

alright i admit i haven't seen ratatouille (though i already ref'd up and wall-e), in part because the message seems gross. in general i'd rather see a kid's movie that lacks "distinctive vision" if it's funny, touching and doesn't have a weird agenda

cool just sayin' the princess angle is not the problem bravewise and history will judge it only slightly more kindly than Cars 2

may not be your problem, but dude there are PLENTY of reviews that suggest many a guy's unsympathetic reaction to brave has something to do with not being able to tell the difference between an affecting mother/daughter story and the "princess angle" - just a little up this thread even - i mean, how exactly was this movie any different from every other 90's-and-on disney princess movie ever made?

hrmph that is a bit damning. i stand corrected :p

croup, you seem kinda focused on the plots and MORALS (which are basically where pixar plays to the kids) as opposed to the craftwork, turns of emotion (the mom in incredibles telling her kids they could be killed, the first ten minutes of up, the moment of joined community before the inferno in toy story 3) and occasional worthwhilesubtext

"princess" is shorthand in some ways for "underdeveloped and unrealized character aspirations masquerading as empowered heroines"; it's a disney hallmark and not unrealistic to want to lump this in with those many, many character driven animated films. I have no issue with strong female protagonists in cartoons; kiki and totoro jump to mind immediately. this is, again, wasted opportunity caked with multilayered bullshit when the company is capable of much better. frankly, you don't seem to much care for the studio or, to a lesser extent, the form so i'm curious why you're arguing your point so forcedly

brave's most meaningful "mother daughter relationship" moments actually happen when mom is a bear, so not sure how meaningful that really is.

anyways, i really disliked this film on a gut level.

it's ironic you're asking why i'm arguing so forcedly when you're throwing a million absurdities (brave's most meaningful "mother daughter relationship" moments actually happen when mom is a bear, so not sure how meaningful that really is - why would her form matter?) out and then copping to some "gut level" distaste for it. I really enjoyed the movie and it's getting a lot of bile that feels absurd and misguided.

also are you really arguing there's no "turns of emotion" in Brave, when plenty of people have said they felt affected by it? and i acknowledged the plots of earlier pixar films because YOU did, i literally cut and pasted your praise for pixar plots and contradicted from my own experience of them.

since i haven't seen nemo, monsters inc and ratatouille it's not impossible there's something hardcore pixar-heads specifically associate with pixar that they aren't getting from the more recent efforts, and that Brave was unsatisfying because of this. but from what I HAVE seen (including parts of Cars) - i'm not sympathetic to the idea that Brave was some ghastly nightmare of obvious plotting and broad comedy because i know that shit's prevalent in the previous films as well. if you don't want to get lumped in with the "girls, ew!" contingent, try a little harder not to just barf nonsensically.

brave definitely was less of an "IMAGINE A WORLD WHERE" experience than most of their earlier films

Like all their films it deals with oversized unlikely characters, in this case the Scottish

croup totally on point on this btw, and suggesting it doesn't contain turns of emotion is not a particularly effective way to dodge the "Ew, girls" bullet.

Missed some of this recent volley, but I know my own response to "Brave" was tainted by the fact that it followed two Pixar sequels, one of which ("TS3") I was underwhelmed by, the other ("Cars 2") the easy consensus worst Pixar movie, no less the sequel to the previous worst Pixar movie. And the next one up is a sequel, too. Now, that can be cool. Hell, I just saw "Monsters Inc." in 3-D today, and it was better than ever. But as a chance to finally have a Pixar movie with a female protagonist, plus beautiful animation, it really dropped the ball when it came to meeting the potential implied by the trailer and title. In other words:

also 50% of the complaints would've been calmed by keeping the original title (the bear and the bow) and NOT hiding the fact that the movie is about a bunch of fucking bears in the commercials

Also, "Tangled" was better. Most under appreciated grade-A Disney since "Emperor's New Clothes."

the craftwork, turns of emotion (the mom in incredibles telling her kids they could be killed, the first ten minutes of up, the moment of joined community before the inferno in toy story 3)

i agree that brave didn't end up having a moment of similar deftness (and i'd add the critic's childhood memory of eating ratatouille to that list, and maybe wall-e watching hello dolly and dreaming of love?). my emotional reaction to the mother/daughter story was more large-scale: how loving and close they are when merida is young, compared to how divided they are now, and generally how the mother's perspective is unusually prioritized throughout the whole thing. even when she does an Evil Thing by breaking merida's bow, it's clear she's doing it from fright and frustration and deserves forgiveness (as opposed to tangled's weird message of "maybe yr mom is weirdly controlling bcuz she's a witch?").

i feel like i'm bagging on tangled too much, i really liked it + consider it quality.

most emotional moment for me in wall-e is when he first sees eve from hiding and is totally paralyzed by how sleek and graceful she is and just stares at her in confused wonder and then makes a tiny noise and she immediately incinerates like half the nearby terrain. also possibly hardest i've laughed in a theatre.

have not seen brave tho was just popping in.

I wouldn't even have minded space so much without the stupid lolfatties storyline. That little Mo! robot was cuet

man i realize i'm in the minority something fierce but i just can't get over how the toy story movies take a cute notion like "what if your toys had lives when you were not around?" and extend it to "well they'd regularly be in danger and run the risk of abandonment or destruction unless you make sure to give them homes and tlc until the end of time"

like, i don't want to give them credit for taking the anthropomorphization of material possessions to that extreme

i think there is more to it than that, but maybe i'm crazy or overly sentimental

i realize the plots are chosen because of the need for drama and villains rather than an actual contempt for toy collectors, kids who give dolls haircuts and people who GOD FORBID throw childhood shit away, but there's something hysterically sentimental about the stakes they create that I just can't get over.

That's why "Toy Story 2" is great, by embracing the idea of toys as things to be played with - that's their identity, their reason to be - and introducing a villain who values hoarding over playing. For the toys in that one, thwarting the villain is tied to fulfilling their purpose.

phhhbbbbt. put em on the shelf, trade 'em on ebay, cut their heads off, throw 'em in the trash, they're TOYS

YOU MONSTER

I have an unopened Nat X doll that comes with an afro pick and does the black power salute.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41yN8aScdjL.jpg

Mr Veg had an unopened Minmai doll from Robotech. Our 5 year old niece got super into Robotech & Mr Veg had to try to explain to her why he couldn't take it out of the box. But the explanation made him feel like a jerk so he gave her the doll for Christmas. (Awwww.)

i get exhausted trying to have a conversation with anyone who tells me i'm "barfing nonsensically" but it's telling that your lead arguments are "people enjoyed it so how can you not recognize it as effective" and "you sound like 'girls ew'" as opposed to talking about what you enjoyed about the film.

i'm stepping out cause ad hominem argument is the dumbest + fucked if i'm going to argue on THE INTERNET about A DISNEY PRINCESS when i have episodes of my little pony to catch up on

As far as Disney's missed ops go, I should say this was much less of a missed opportunity than "Princess and the Frog," which outright pissed me off.

I thought it was marvelous. For some reasons, i connected with the mother/daughter story and that was enough for me to be charmed. The voicemail anachronism is the only thing that irked me.