DRUMMERS: Advice for a beginner

pocket?

the whole phrase

playing in the pocket is kinda different, since it refers to the actual "groove" and sound, and the timing of playing along with others in a band. when i think of playing in the pocket i think of al jackson jr on love and happiness:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPHGp2DHqSI

although getting in the zone/getting inside the song/etc can definitely line up with playing in the pocket, it can just also be more about a mindset and less about timing. for example, i'm sure a lot of free jazz and spiritual jazz were waaaaaaaaaaaaay in the zone while they were playing, but you wouldn't put on ornette coleman and look for the drummer to be playing in the pocket.

phil ochsymuzak (roxymuzak) wrote this on thread Ask a Hoos. on board 1 pWN 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 on May 24, 2009

So we were driving back from Baltimore early this morning and Hoos is like:

"When I first moved in to my new apartment, my roommate and I were listening to some music, and I was like 'Man, he's really goin' in," and my roommate was like, 'you mean going off?' and I thought, wow, we are really not going to get along."

Hahaha

xpost

whoa, i never realized that it's NOT al jackson jr on love and happiness (the song)!!

He never cut his ties completely with the Hi label, though. He was still the drummer of choice years later. If he was out on the road with Booker T and the MG’s or otherwise tied up at Stax, Mitchell would call Howard Grimes, a onetime student of Jackson’s who would establish himself soon as the “other” top drummer in Memphis. When Jackson was available, Grimes was still brought in sometimes, and the two were paired, usually with Jackson on traps and Grimes on congas. This combination of kit and percussion, never attempted at Stax, became integral to the sound that Al Green laid down on his early hits at Hi.

from an article that bizarrely uses the header Snap! to break up the sections:

“Usually I’d have Al play those sessions by himself,” Mitchell says. “Sometimes I’d play the conga drum with him, on things like ’Let’s Stay Together.’ But there were times that Al Jackson couldn’t get the feel I wanted, on songs like ’Take Me To The River’ or ’Love & Happiness,’ so I had Howard come in for that. Now, Al could actually play anything … but he couldn’t play it raggedy. And when that’s what I wanted to have, I called Howard.”

http://www.drummagazine.com/features/post/al-jackson-jr.-the-sound-of-60s-soul/

Weird, I assumed it was Jackson too!

Also, ZS otm itt.

i love this! if you want i can give you a lesson next time i'm in town.

You're on!! Lemme know when you're coming, you have my email!!

Progress update: I have my ipod shuffle loaded with all of the songs that I know the best, songs I could sing with absentmindedly and are also probably easy enough to try out. I listen to it while I'm walking (to the post office, wherever) and when a song sounds like I could maybe play it, I note it mentally and then try to play it the next time.

This list is getting out of control. Apparently every song I decided was maybe easy enough to play was actually more or less easy enough to play a little bit of, not ever really the whole thing through. I thought it would be nice to know what it feels like to play a short song, you know, how long is that? 3-5 min? Anyway, I decided to focus on one to try to play through all the way and learn, basically, until i could play it confidently at will. a little focused project.

-----> I have 2 pedagogy questions --

1) Is this a bad idea? Should I focus on getting different basic rhythms before I focus on endurance/structure?
2) If I do this, will my brain fossilize on that song if I don't have a strong foundation in the feel/comfort of different rhythms?

This may be obvious stuff, I have no idea. When someone says "take lessons" my first question is "does this teacher's methodology work with my learning style" -- for me, this totally new learning process is almost as interesting as what i'm trying to learn how to do. almost.

i will also note, totally objectively, that i am not solid on the 1-2 things i think i can do at this point. there were multiple moments that i thought i was doing something different and honestly couldn't tell whether it was the same beat i had been playing all along or not. in case you were starting to think i had some delusion of grandeur.

i don't think there's any problem with playing along to songs before you have the basics down or that you have to do it in a specific order. the only problem would be if you're physically forcing things that you can't do yet (like tensing up to play fast for a long time), then you run the risk of hurting yourself. especially at, um, our age.

but other than that i think both methods build on each other. practicing rudiments and independence by themselves can be boring (but necessary), and playing along with songs helps your time & sense of form, and well as showing you what you want/need to learn.

also youtube can be your friend.

1) Is this a bad idea? Should I focus on getting different basic rhythms before I focus on endurance/structure?

Not at all. In fact, this is probably the best approach. When I started playing along to records, when I got to parts that were too complicated I'd try to play a simplified version of it, because it was less about learning the technical aspects and more about finding out where you/the drums fit into the song (and not stopping/losing your place).

2) If I do this, will my brain fossilize on that song if I don't have a strong foundation in the feel/comfort of different rhythms?

I doubt it, but it probably couldn't hurt to jump around to different songs, maybe keep it to a small handful.

The thing about lessons can be really valuable in terms of learning how to maximize efficiency of motion (and avoid tendonitis), but can be a bummer if the teacher really digs Toto.

Also what Jordan said.

As far as I'm concerned, when you're starting out, just steadily going "R L R L R L" to the beat of a song for the entire song is as good practice as anything. In fact even until recently (when I more or less stopped playing drums) I still did stuff like that to practice or warm up.

Learning styles: I've been learning piano too, and started out with best of intentions to learn to read music, practise scales, etc. But of course I end up doing what I always do, learn a few chords and try to understand basic structure, and noodle around from there.

I imagine I'll try something similar with drumming, once I work out what the equivalents might be.

(when I more or less stopped playing drums)

:(

i'm an attorney with a 16-month-old living in an apartment, makes it tough

i'm ok with our age, no hard feelings! i am friendly with youtube and have explored some of my options, which is partially why i bring up pedagogy. are there prevailing models i could read about? i just don't even know where to look. i know there's no "doing it wrong" or whatever, but i def don't want to hurt myself (physically) or risk future chances at improvement because i started poorly. you know, like develop a learning injury or something. you guys are all giving good advice and i thank you for the straight-talking expertise.

btw i am not playing crazy loud or fast or anything, i'm just kinda galumphing along at a mid tempo. i also think i need to do something to the snare. it sounds boomier than it should.

(and not stopping/losing your place).
happens all the time, feels like an electric shock with the no-rhythm stick

as for developing basic coordination, i feel like i am surprisingly good at that. if there's anywhere that my dance background helps me, it's recognizing the different parts of a rhythm. i've never really had any trouble "finding" the beat in my life -- reproducing it with sound? That's new to me.

i also think i need to do something to the snare. it sounds boomier than it should.

lol, does it sound like "bom bom bom" instead of "crack crack crack"? Or rather, are the wires on the bottom head loose instead of taut?

only lolling because you are bringing me back to my noob days. I think it was like three months before I actually figured out how a hi-hat clutch works (oh, the foot-pedal actually opens and closes this thing if you set it up right!)

echoing what others have said. the benefits almost come in two waves: 1) when you're still a beginner, it's good for providing motivation to play a simple beat over and over for a few minutes straight. there's no substitute for sheer repetition - the more times you play a beat, the more it becomes second nature. playing along with a song makes that sometimes arduous process more fun. probably the most important benefit, especially early on, is that playing along to a record will also train you to have a steady feel. it's not the exact same as practicing to a metronome (also important), but studio drummers stay close enough to a steady beat. unless it's the shaggs. don't play along to the shaggs! 2) eventually you'll reach a point where you can emulate fills and beats without needing to practice them for a long time. you'll just hear it, and then your hands will be able to do it. (unless you're listening to prog rock or something). when you reach that point, playing along to songs is great because they introduce new beats and rhythmic trips into your musical vocabulary.

sorry, that was to the question of the value of playing along to songs

if there's anywhere that my dance background helps me, it's recognizing the different parts of a rhythm.

I was just reading a thing about Milford Graves last night. He'd started out on timbales, and when he first sat down at a kit he had no idea what to do with his feet. Then he remembered the dance patterns he sometimes incorporated as a timbalero, and it all fell into place.

Yeah, doing things steadily and repeatedly at this stage is more important than "learning songs" (which I guess means learning all the changes in beat, where the fills are, etc) -- although doing some of that stuff is important too to keep it fun.

being able to intuitively understand a rhythm, and especially know where the "1" is, is so critical. some people just...can't. i'd almost go so far to say that it's the equivalent to being tone deaf. someone without a good sense of rhythm recognition can probably be taught to understand it a little better, but...man it's gonna be a long uphill battle!

Lechera, there should be wires like this across the bottom of the snare:

http://ps257kids.webs.com/TamaStarphonicAluminium146SnareDrum_3.jpg

attached to one side will be some kind of mechanism or switch that, when flipped, pulls the wires taut. That may be the problem. However it could also be that that mechanism needs tightening (sometimes there's a sort of knob you can turn to do this) or it could be that one or both of the heads themselves are not tight enough.

i mean, you're still thinking of course, but it's more of a higher-order abstract guidance kind of thinking - like, "what kind of feeling do i want to create next" - rather than counting subdivisions and trying to make sure you land back on the beat.

Yeah, my favorite part of this is when I find myself playing something and I realize I'm not sure what I'm actually doing -- have to slow it down and break it into components to figure out what's going on.

LL, the only advice I'd give anyone starting drums is to a.) play a lot, even (or especially) if that means doing the same things over and over; and b.) as soon as possible, find some people to play with. I took drum lessons for a few years, but almost everything I learned really came from just being in a room with other people trying to make music. You have to find people at sort of close to your own level, but I bet there are plenty of people around who are just starting to learn guitar or bass or whatever and would like to have a drummer. I mean, I love just sitting at a drumset by myself, I can entertain myself for ages. But it's really an instrument that needs other instruments around it to thrive.

although doing some of that stuff is important too to keep it fun.

yeah, having fun is so important! i used to give free lessons to a friend back when i lived in chicago, and i think that's where i really fucked up. i was all about stripping things down to the basics and learning the fundamentals, repetition, playing along to a metronome, etc. but in doing so i completely KILLED THE FUN for her! and plus it was totally hypocritical, because when i first started out i never wanted to focus on fundamentals and play a basic beat without variation for 10 minutes. i was all about doing trying to do the most massive 16th note tom fill OF ALL TIME

yes -- it sounds like bom bom bom i knew there was something wrong with it, haha. man, this is a really good exercise in good natured humility on top of everything else.

i really do thank you all for the advices and also for answering my questions. i will try to keep them on a need-to-ask basis! i'm going to proceed with my plan to learn the song i was planning on learning (not like full choreography, just basics) right after i fix the snare. good thing i can take care of that before anyone had a chance to tell me that piece of information irl!

def not ready to invite anyone into the basement yet, but will set it as a future goal!

which i achieved, btw

xpost

I think I spent my first year and a half of drumming trying to figure out why my drumset didn't sound like John Bonham on record

ZS that is what I mean about teacher-student kismet re: methodology. everyone is a different kind of learner and i have yet to really figure out what i want/need from a teacher because i'm trying to figure out what i'm like as a learner.
once i do that, i will probably try to find a teacher who is able/willing to work with me on my terms
because i am bossy, apparently

I think I spent my first year and a half of drumming trying to figure out why my drumset didn't sound like John Bonham on record

When I saw Bonham's tiny little drum kit at the RnR Hall of Fame, that mystery just got deeper.

Lechera -- by the way, to be clear, that doesn't mean anything is wrong with it. The snare is designed so you can turn it "on" or "off" for different effects. If it turns "on" when you flip the switch, there's nothing wrong.

learning to be a drum set mechanic is a big part of learning to play imo

but in doing so i completely KILLED THE FUN

A teacher of mine used to say that you don't learn to talk by learning the alphabet first. I thought that was a decent analogy.

Yeah there's actually quite a lot of shit to figure out on a drumset, e.g. how to adjust the kick pedal, getting the cymbal stands right, etc. Not to mention all the crap that constantly malfunctions on you and needs quick fixes, especially on a beginner kit.

When I saw Bonham's tiny little drum kit at the RnR Hall of Fame, that mystery just got deeper.

― something of an astrological coup (tipsy mothra), Friday, June 21, 2013 4:04 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I read an interview with Dave Mattacks who saw Bonham play on a tiny kit and he still inexplicably managed to get that sound.

He used a big bass drum though iirc

i am a language teacher -- this is very similar to trying to learn about the fundamentals of linguistics (and therefore why i am taking it excessively seriously but not so seriously that the fun is sapped)

so far i have had the most fun pretending that i am in a can jam, just repeating the same thing over and over and over until i feel like taking a little break, then i do that, then i go back. repeat. when i try to replicate what someone else is doing, i get a lot more of the YOU LOST IT shocks.

Why's a metronome important? I cannot cope with a click track for anything, I just can't hear it. What I do is make up a basic track on garageband and drum/play along to that.

I made a ten-minute 92bpm proto-funk thing for drumming, and recorded myself playing through it twice. It was really helpful for tempo, but there's about two usable bars on the whole thing. Every attempted fill I come off hitting the bass drum on the off-beat, then waiting a-beat-and-a-half to pick things up again.

xp Oh, he totally did; in Mattacks' anecdote, Bonham was playing on a kit much smaller than what he usually used, almost child-sized.

In re set-up, getting everything set at the right height is super-important, imo. Right meaning "right for you." It's interesting how much variation there is in that, I for some reason like everything pretty low and I've played on the kits of guys who were about the same height as me but had everything up way too high for my tastes.

ZS that is what I mean about teacher-student kismet re: methodology. everyone is a different kind of learner and i have yet to really figure out what i want/need from a teacher because i'm trying to figure out what i'm like as a learner.
once i do that, i will probably try to find a teacher who is able/willing to work with me on my terms

yeah, i totally get that, makes sense!

before you go down the lessons route, though, it might a good idea to take up Jordan's offer (or anyone else you know in town that plays drums) to just drop by and show you a few things. not a formal lesson or anything, but just a few practical tips.

the snare drum thing is one example, but there are lots of little things that are useful to know - like how to quickly adjust the space between the hi-hats, or how to tune a drum or change a drumhead, making sure you have little plastic protector guard things on your cymbal stands so that you don't slowly ruin your cymbals, how to do a flam, etc.

those kinds of things might be a relative waste of time with a tutor or an expensive one-off lesson, but can be really beneficial to a beginner!

xpost

Yeah the kick drum in the Bonham set I saw was good-sized, but whole thing was the size of your basic jazz set. Seemed inconceivable so much power could have come out of it.

Why's a metronome important? I cannot cope with a click track for anything, I just can't hear it. What I do is make up a basic track on garageband and drum/play along to that.

I made a ten-minute 92bpm proto-funk thing for drumming, and recorded myself playing through it twice. It was really helpful for tempo, but there's about two usable bars on the whole thing. Every attempted fill I come off hitting the bass drum on the off-beat, then waiting a-beat-and-a-half to pick things up again.

― Ismael Klata, Friday, June 21, 2013 4:09 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I hate metronomes. I think learning to play musically with a metronome is kind of like trying to learn to dance fluidly with someone constantly rapping you on the legs. Sometimes they're a necessary evil, but I always think it's better to practice to music if possible.

Seemed inconceivable so much power could have come out of it.

― something of an astrological coup (tipsy mothra), Friday, June 21, 2013 4:12 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah well it's not like you get a power multiplier from having more drums

In re set-up, getting everything set at the right height is super-important, imo. Right meaning "right for you." It's interesting how much variation there is in that, I for some reason like everything pretty low and I've played on the kits of guys who were about the same height as me but had everything up way too high for my tastes.

yeah, co-sign. i like the cymbals to be as low as possible without scraping the toms. And to be honest, i like the ride low enough so that if i REALLY hit it hard it will hit the floor tom a bit. most people seem to prefer the cymbals way up high, though, which is really inefficient (imo - everyone has their own style of course). i guess if you're setting them up really high you're not really too concerned about your efficiency, though.

http://i.imgur.com/7pQ49uC.jpg