HBO adaptation of Game of Thrones - will this be just for nerds? (NO SPOILERS PLEASE)

Sorry, they don't speak using the Latin alphabet, of course! They wrote in it.

Ah yeah, that's another thing, I wish there weren't dragons in it. Sorry if that's missing the point. Ice-demons and smoke-demons, fine, I liked them.

dragons p cool in general tbh

"Relatedly, it's medieval europe without the Christianity. It takes away the element of scheming royalty who pretend to be acting for a greater good, or anyone who actually considers themselves to be acting for a greater good. "

Dunno if I agree with this tbh, I think there are a number of characters and organisations who seem broadly interested in representing the interests of the people or "the greater good" or whatever. Most notably at this point Varys (tho tbf who the fuck knows) and the Brotherhood Without Banners, whose raison d'etre is to protect the 'smallfolk' from the schemers and the monsters and so on

I think GRRM does have a problem understanding religion - the way that the religion of the seven fits with the state and daily life and economic power is v thin and unrealised (and none of the variants he presents in any of the books make it any less so).

the dragons are sadly inextricable from the entire thing.

I dunno, I think it makes some sense as regards the position of religion in a world where there is also magic, but religion isn't it.

GRRM is a lapsed Catholic and Faith of the Seven is basically Catholicism.

the way that the religion of the seven fits with the state and daily life and economic power is v thin and unrealised (and none of the variants he presents in any of the books make it any less so).

I don't get this though? This is the biggest cultural division between the North and the rest of the realm. Like you have to take vows in a sept to become a knight, the king has to worship the seven, the Faith had to be demilitarised after their power got out of hand etc etc. The connection between the Faith and State seems fairly clear to me.

The thing that bugs me a bit about the show, having no idea where it is going, is the pointlessness of all this fighting and scheming in a world with armies of snow zombies, dragons and women birthing smoke demons. Prioritize, you inbred morons! That's why I liked the end of the last episode. Red Witch was all fuck this game of thrones shit, there is an approaching army of snow of zombies!

I am hoping this is not "the point" of the series but yeah it's completely implausible that you'd get this ridiculous infighting in the face of a coming apocalypse (or indeed even climate-based apocalypse).

i think its made pretty clear that no one believes an apocalypse is coming

the entire south and most of the north thinks the white walkers are just fairy tales, and until maester aemon contacts the four kings its unclear that any of them would have any idea that the nights watch has seen them.

im with CSM about the faith, GRRM is fine on it as a cultural phenomenon but it takes a while for him to get around to dealing with it as a political phenomenon

Yeah Stannis is the only one taking that shit seriously. Ned Stark pretty much ignored it in the very first episode.

I agree with C#m here - I can't remember anyone with real power even paying lip-service to religion, certainly no one around the Iron Throne.

he tells you that the connection exists, but I don't think it's fleshed out in any convincing way: it's just a series of schema. he puts religion in the places where it seems plausible to have religion, but it's cardboard. Why does the king have to worship the seven? What's the rationale? Is there some legitimating force? Is it just lip service because the poor and illiterate masses do? (this is one of the problems: his "clever" characters are all unbelievers) There is not even any sense of a theology.

GRRM gives a bit of a sense of religion as a personal experience, in the weirwood scenes etc - but as a statewide, continent-wide religion it's super unconvincing.

many xposts

In the series all of this just comes across as the obsessions of tiny groups of cultists rather than anything that's threaded through society. If there's a sectarian conflict lying ahead then the groundwork for it has been poorly laid.

i think its made pretty clear that no one believes an apocalypse is coming

the entire south and most of the north thinks the white walkers are just fairy tales

But see, that's what I was getting at: they can believe or not believe, but the fact that dragons were once huge and existed, with no question, and that there is some degree of magic, would seem to tip the balance in favor of ... believe.

"Bah, there's no snow zombie apocalypse that all our history books recorded happened once before. It's all make-believe. We live in a world of iron and steel, of blades and blood!"

"Yeah, but there used to be dragons that ruled the world and destroyed cities."

"Well, yeah, of course there used to be dragons. That's totally different."

Still want to know what happened to the snow zombies. A whole army was wandering around at the end of season 2. And then season 3, virtually nil. Meanwhile, all the humans, who have to stop, who have to eat, who are compelled to fight with each other every once in a while, had no problem heading south through the snow toward the wall. Did the zombies make a wrong turn?

The White Walkers were further north, whereas virtually everyone was heading south pretty damn quickly all season.

yeah the white walkers are just kind of chilling politely up north of the big forest until the other plotlines progress

basically just accept that the pacing on a couple elements of the story is so bad in the books that there's no way to fix it for the tv show. they already attempted to fix this on theon's arc and it resulted in a bunch of shitty scenes this season

xpost They knew there used to be white walkers. They just think they are all gone, and reckon stories from the north are just mental yokels making shit up. Just like they thought the dragons were all gone - and in Westeros the three dragons are still no more than a rumour. They haven't invented Twitter and Vine yet.

But see, that's what I was getting at: they can believe or not believe, but the fact that dragons were once huge and existed, with no question, and that there is some degree of magic, would seem to tip the balance in favor of ... believe.

"Bah, there's no snow zombie apocalypse that all our history books recorded happened once before. It's all make-believe. We live in a world of iron and steel, of blades and blood!"

"Yeah, but there used to be dragons that ruled the world and destroyed cities."

"Well, yeah, of course there used to be dragons. That's totally different."

Still want to know what happened to the snow zombies. A whole army was wandering around at the end of season 2. And then season 3, virtually nil. Meanwhile, all the humans, who have to stop, who have to eat, who are compelled to fight with each other every once in a while, had no problem heading south through the snow toward the wall. Did the zombies make a wrong turn?

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, June 20, 2013 1:53 PM (31 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I know what you mean, but I do think the White Walkers are bound up with the weather (hence a rough old winter incoming being bad news for all concerned). Idk, I'm clutching at straws a bit. But White Walkers only able to exist in the most extreme cold weather, and therefore pushing further south as winter sets in? I think that might be kinda the point, but it's admittedly not made very clear.

The history books point is a little misleading too, this shit went down thousands of years ago. We don't believe in titans or giants or cyclops anymore either. Not especially far-fetched.

On a related point, what's all this about "Oh, the idea of in-fighting and petty personal squabbles between the higher-ups in the face of coming apocalypse is sooooooo unrealistic"?! Lone voices in the wilderness crying end-of-the-world, dismissed as cranks by the elites who are too busy fighting their own self-interested battles to car = a pretty accurate model of the way society works right now, afaict

The white walkers haven't been seen in millennia, and the stories have gradually faded into legend.

The last dragon died idk a couple of centuries ago? And there is a room filled with their skulls in the Red Keep.

yeah the white walkers are generally thought to be legendary whereas dragons are acknowledged to be real but are considered extinct. the general thought about the white walkers is wrong of course and they have definitely shown up in the distant past. the supporting historical record, such as it is, appears to consist entirely of dusty night's watch archives. the night's watch notably do believe white walkers to be real, but it is worth bearing in mind that they have come to be viewed as fringe weirdos as time has gone by and the oral history of the white walkers has been relegated into folklore.

otm

yeah that's something that's made a lot more clear in the books - the night's watch was once this noble/honorable thing to do with your life and now it's staffed almost entirely by criminals who were given the choice between death and taking the black. the attitude towards it in the south is more 'prison camp' than 'heroic defenders of the realm' whereas in the north they still take it a bit more seriously.

and the value of the night's watch for folks in the north is in helping stop wildlings from stealing their shit, rather than anything to do with legendary snow monsters

Yeah, it is subtler in the programme but the implication's still there that the Northmen get it. Ben Stark's presence in spite of his status as the youngest son of the de facto rulers in the North makes that point in a pretty heavy-handed way

xpost - otm about reasons for the Nights Watch being there for the Northmen

To add to the believability of white walkers given the existence of dragons, I'd say the existence of warlocks is better support to tip someone towards accepting white walker existence.

And when did we decide the story needs a commentary on how religion plays a part in politics? I know it would be a fantastic angle for them to explore but I don't think they're required to go there any more than they already are given the strength of the story otherwise.

The last dragon died idk a couple of centuries ago? And there is a room filled with their skulls in the Red Keep.

& the TV series makes it v explicit that the dragons aren't thought of as something that could be a present threat - iirc when Tyrion's told that Danaerys has dragons he's all "the last generation of dragons were the size of a small dog and sickly and weak, who gives a shit"

On a related point, what's all this about "Oh, the idea of in-fighting and petty personal squabbles between the higher-ups in the face of coming apocalypse is sooooooo unrealistic"?! Lone voices in the wilderness crying end-of-the-world, dismissed as cranks by the elites who are too busy fighting their own self-interested battles to car = a pretty accurate model of the way society works right now, afaict

Yeah no that was actually my point, dude.

And when did we decide the story needs a commentary on how religion plays a part in politics?

i'm not saying it needs "a commentary", i'm saying that the part of his worldbuilding that relates to religion is unconvincing. whereas, e.g., the part of his worldbuilding that relates to magic has a really sound internal logic (this is the no-spoilers thread, and it's mostly book stuff, otherwise i'd go into it more).

And when did we decide the story needs a commentary on how religion plays a part in politics? I know it would be a fantastic angle for them to explore...

― Evan, Thursday, June 20, 2013

yup nothing to see here

http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/30000000/got-game-of-thrones-30059967-500-281.gif

weird -- there was def a pic of melisandre and stannis standing over the Painted Table attached to that post. anyhoo, cf: Melisandre

xxp: I should reread before diving into this more but part of the issue is related to the strengths of the different faiths, isn't it? The power of the 7 Gods is waning while the Fire God is waxing, reflected so far in how the ppl actively or notionally following the 7 seem to be in an overall weaker position than the people actively or notionally following the Fire God.

"On a related point, what's all this about "Oh, the idea of in-fighting and petty personal squabbles between the higher-ups in the face of coming apocalypse is sooooooo unrealistic"?! Lone voices in the wilderness crying end-of-the-world, dismissed as cranks by the elites who are too busy fighting their own self-interested battles to car = a pretty accurate model of the way society works right now, afaict

Yeah no that was actually my point, dude.

― Andrew Farrell, Thursday, June 20, 2013 3:01 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink"

Yeah I think I skim-read that passage of the thread, was addressed as much at Josh in Chicago as you

The Red God seems to grant his worshipers actual powers...

The Red God seems to grant his worshipers actual powers...

― I wish to incorporate disco into my small business (chap), Thursday, June 20, 2013 3:10 PM (57 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Straying dangerously close to spoilerish book material so I don't wanna say anything out of turn, but I think in general this world is pretty good about giving you reason to believe that any of the competing faiths answer the prayers of the practitioners. Or at least that they are each possessed of their own unique powers

yeah but also

BOOK STUFF SPOILERS

the birth of the dragons has brought magic back into the world (hence the maesters' dragonglass candle test can now be completed); the return of magic means miracles are now possible; therefore the miracles promised by the fire god are now actually happening in a way that surprises even his acolytes (both melisandre and thoros of myr have chapters that cover their experience of this).

END BOOK STUFF SPOILERS

(that was in response to DJP and I guess chap)

And when did we decide the story needs a commentary on how religion plays a part in politics? I know it would be a fantastic angle for them to explore but I don't think they're required to go there any more than they already are given the strength of the story otherwise.

― Evan, Thursday, June 20, 2013 9:58 AM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i mean. religion plays an important role in politics, and vice versa. if youre building an even semi-realistic world this is somethign you need to address. its not commentary its verisimilitude

tbh it's been so long since I've read the books that I don't fully remember the timeline, which is probably why I feel like this is more chicken vs egg than it may actually be

its just weird that someone as interested in/attuned to power and its works as GRRM falls apart so completely on the question of religion, at least for the first three seasons

Spoilers

This is to do with the return of magic to the world (not as explicit in show as books). that's how Daenerys can hatch her dragons, how the "kiss of life" Thoros uses on Beric actually revives him (to his shock, it's a pretty standard ritual), how Bran can see the future & warg etc. The Faith of the Seven is the only faith without a magical element to it, it really is just prayers and candles.

jeez guys what part of NO SPOILERS PLEASE is missing from the thread title?

/boardlawyer

discussion of any differences in the TV show and the books from what we've seen is fine. ― Gukbe, Saturday, April 16, 2011 4:51 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

xpost to SPOILERS

But we saw a white walker in the opening scene of the first ep of the first series - dragons only hatched in the last episode. Dragons are part of the return of magic, not its cause.

xp to self but also, yes, mea culpa, one of the things i mention in my spoiler post is from a later book than 3 -- in my defence it's not a plot point.

that wss my concern but agreed it's not a plot point afawk so i suppose there's no need to press charges

huh, ithappens, good point.

and there has been lower-level magic shit going on previously: jaqen hagar's powers don't seem to be new to him, the warlocks in qarth have been going for ages, etc.

well these aren't really plot spoilers they're just things that the book goes more in-depth on. but yeah this is getting into other-thread territory i think