Are We At War?

2. Am I right in thinking that US has never declared War despite attacking All & Sundry (!= Everyone)?

3. Thus Bush 'This Means War' = hypocrisy (I think).

4. War Talk = Vengeance Talk. [Desire for] Vengeance is understandable: but Justice is meant to be larger than Vengeance, which is (let's say) one of the animals that drives it, but is also restrained by it. Justice = victory of the Enlightenment (or much longer Xan tradition, or whatever) over Eye For An Eye model. Reversion to the latter = reversion to 'barbarism', in a sense.

I think I've understood the principle here. Right?

really interesting thread, and it's amazing to see that so many people were asking exactly the right questions about the war on terrorism, only 2 days after 9/11.

i found this thread while searching for any discussion of this morning's news that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the leader of ISIS, was apparently wounded in an airstrike on Saturday. we don't even have a thread for ISIS (at least one that's not about the band). there was a good Radiolab episode from a few months back called Sixty Words which focused on the Authorization for Use of Military Force (AUMF) that was drafted in response to 9/11. part of the episode focuses on the wave of patriotic vengeance that swept the country in the following weeks. there's a great bit where they play the sounds of the memorial service, which begins with a terrifying rendition of Battle Hymn of the Republic - "He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword" - sung fullthroated by all of the politicians in attendance. just after that was the vote for the AUMF, which all members of congress, save for Melissa Lee, voted for. the text:

That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.

of course, that same language has been used to justify many of the conflicts that have happened since. there really is no end, there can't be an end. we don't even know who we're at war with, and that's not an exaggeration. the US Senate Armed Services Committee held a hearing in 2013 called "The Law of Armed Conflict, the Use of Military Force, and the 2001 Authorization for Use of Military Force" where there was a jawdropping moment when everyone in the room realized that there wasn't an authoritative list of entities which the US is currently at war with. absolutely insane.

anyway, my feeling is that we've all just accepted that we're at permanent war. the blasé feeling extends beyond friends and family and ILX - it's difficult to find a news organization that's reliably covers what's going on with ISIS right now. part of that is the permanent war fatigue, but part of it's also just the nature of the conflicts - drone strikes, top level security clearances, remote control death sentences. anyone who's involved with fighting ISIS probably can't talk about it. it might be your neighbor driving out of town to the drone command center on the edge of a desert. or the guy with the tacky 6-year-old boy fantasy sports car and bluetooth headset at the intersection. it's all so fucked up.

tl;dr do we have a rolling ISIS thread? or rolling We're At War the Rest of our Lives thread?

i think about this a lot too
did you watch the recent frontline about ISIS?

Accepted it? Perpetual was is essential for A Strong America, not to mention pregame NFL flyovers. xp

Best to assume the worst about all the secret stuff and you'll usually be close to right.

thanks for reviving this, Karl. i feel so utterly helpless and hopeless about all this stuff. in 2003 i marched against iraq. 11 years later, almost no one bothers. including me.

did you watch the recent frontline about ISIS?

nope - i'm getting behind on my frontlines and haven't caught up yet. also i meant BARBARA lee in my post above. whoops. sorry barbara.

Marching ain't gonna work (not for the climate, either).

if occupy had decided congress was a better target than wall st for either the climate or the economy/inequality marches perhaps things would have been different. im not sure i really believe that, but protest has been off target lately

good post karl, you articulated some things i've been struggling to express lately.

the other day i had a conversation with my co-workers about u.s. foreign policy and i mentioned that i was troubled by the reliance on drones and the heavy civilian casualties and the response from all of them was 'well, yknow, we're at war.' i asked who they thought we were at war with and no one could really give an answer.

i have been worried about this since i was about 11 or 12 -- i was really into nuclear disarmament and not just stopping the arms race, but eliminating the possibility of world annihilation. i was a really serious kid. to think that all these years later, things are actually looking the way they do -- it's not shocking enough to be a surprise. i don't feel particularly hopeful about the way humanity is going atm.

however, if i get too into thinking about this stuff, it sends me straight into the pits! i am with you philosophically and in my degree of concern. but in the name of self-preservation, i can't bear to stick my nose too far into the details. at least no more than it's sort of permanently stuck there.

I always remember the Friday after 9/11. Not sure how it was around the rest of the country but in L.A. there were all kinds of "America fuck yeah!" rallies on all the major streets, lots of "kill bin laden!" signs and giant american flags and stuff. it must have been something someone said "we" should do that night. it felt like America taking a deep breath right before a loud scream or something.

I was just listening to a report this morning on NPR about how our strikes on ISIS have almost unquestionably strengthened Assad, and that he's been able to strike at rebel positions (I'm sure killing plenty of civilians in the process) with impunity. I feel like I literally have no fucking idea what the right foreign policy response is when the choices are either help ISIS build a totalitarian caliphate across the region, help Assad murder his people, or do nothing and just let em fight it out (or I guess arm the "moderate rebels" but that seems so murky and impossible and likely to just produce some other bad result).

I guess you have to ask what the larger *goal* is in order to figure out an answer, and I don't know that either.

there's gotta be a thread for ISIS/ISIL, right? i'm not criticizing, either. i mean, i didn't start one. i'm just curious why collectively, we all decided that it wasn't even worth discussing. rolling middle east 2013 thread has 1495 posts, while Rolling 2014 Middle East Thread has 7.

That's because the main middle east thread is annoyingly titled
Rolling MENA 2014

Can a mod change it perhaps and lock the other one?

i have been worried about this since i was about 11 or 12 -- i was really into nuclear disarmament and not just stopping the arms race, but eliminating the possibility of world annihilation. i was a really serious kid.

and a smart kid, too! :) carl sagan's idea of the meaning of life was this:

We are rare and precious because we are alive, because we can think. We are privileged to influence and perhaps control our future. We have an obligation to fight for life on Earth — not just for ourselves but for all those, humans and others, who came before us and to whom we are beholden, and for all those who, if we are wise enough, will come after. There is no cause more urgent than to survive to eliminate on a global basis the growing threats of nuclear war, environmental catastrophe, economic collapse and mass starvation. These problems were created by humans and can only be solved by humans. No social convention, no political system, no economic hypothesis, no religious dogma is more important.

The hard truth seems to be this: We live in a vast and awesome universe in which, daily, suns are made and worlds destroyed, where humanity clings to an obscure clod of rock. The significance of our lives and our fragile realm derives from our own wisdom and courage. We are the custodians of life’s meaning. We would prefer it to be otherwise, of course, but there is no compelling evidence for a cosmic Parent who will care for us and save us from ourselves. It is up to us.

xpost ah THERE it is. thanks!

RIP CCND (Children's Coalition for Nuclear Disarmament)

Carl Sagan sadly otm

I wonder if people in earlier empires could ask the question "Are We At War?" Like is the US unprecedented as an empire that tries pretty hard to pretend it isn't one? In past empires were ordinary citizens more likely to openly revel in conquest?

you were repping for a strong ISIS piece in harper's, right, hurting?

yeah it's good

That's because the main middle east thread is annoyingly titled
Rolling MENA 2014

― my jaw left (Hurting 2), Monday, November 10, 2014 12:34 PM (18 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Can a mod change it perhaps and lock the other one?

― my jaw left (Hurting 2), Monday, November 10, 2014 12:34 PM (18 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I locked the other one. I'm not going to change the "MENA" thread because it's been used that way all year. Next year, someone set a reminder for Jan 1 to try to beat Mordy to the punch.

You know what? I'll edit it so it's searchable though.

maybe keep the title but add a parenthetical "(Middle East)" after MENA? I know that's not the prettiest title, but I can never even remember what MENA stands for.

er rather "(Middle East and North Africa)"

ROLLING C/D MENA DUNHAM 2014 THREAD

or do nothing and just let em fight it out

this is the best course of action imo

The problem lately has been that ISIS was not fighting Assad, but opportunistically rolling up territory in Iraq instead, where the Iraqi army presented quite a bit less resistance than Assad's army did. Consequently, the price for giving ISIS a free rein was to risk letting them conquer a shockingly weak Iraq and control its massive oil reserves. Which could stimulate Iran to come in and make a grab for Iraq, too.

Take the oil out of the equation and we could let them play grabass all they want, without a second thought. But the world economy still runs on oil, so we can't play "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" there.

nah oil should be $1 million/barrel, that'll wean us off of it

I didn't realize you were a prepper, Οὖτις

wouldn't you like to be a prepper too

the number of times i have wondered if maybe the preppers are onto something is at an all time high of 2 in 2014, with most of 2 months still to go.

like, for the first time ransacking abandoned houses for canned goods feels like it has an integer % chance of happening in my lifetime. i guess this must be a part of getting old.

I feel like I literally have no fucking idea what the right foreign policy response is when the choices are either help ISIS build a totalitarian caliphate across the region, help Assad

― my jaw left (Hurting 2), Monday, 10 November 2014 17:31 (49 minutes ago)

the problem is that assad wasn't helped sooner

Today's low low oil price suggests the oil market is not yet worried about ISIS taking control of significant reserves, but I think there is reason for concern in the longer term.

I always remember the Friday after 9/11. Not sure how it was around the rest of the country but in L.A. there were all kinds of "America fuck yeah!" rallies on all the major streets, lots of "kill bin laden!" signs and giant american flags and stuff. it must have been something someone said "we" should do that night. it felt like America taking a deep breath right before a loud scream or something.

― LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Monday, November 10, 2014 5:30 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I'll grant myself this cue for a grand, way too general statement, but this is how I felt it was like for the whole 'west' that day, not just America. That Friday was the day of the three minutes of silence. I was at some unimportant local political event as a journalist planned weeks before, nothing to do with America, and everyone there was still flummoxed, sad and had visibly gone without sleep for the third day since that Tuesday. Including myself. That Friday for me, too is the day I remember best since it happened. Two days of dust settling, and then that deep breath right before the retaliation...

good War Nerd article on ISIS today:

http://pando.com/2014/11/10/the-war-nerd-farewell-islamic-state-we-hardly-knew-ye/

maybe premature? I am not an expert.

If a Sunni-Arab jihad group can’t please the Abu Nimr, something is very wrong.

Two days of dust settling

well in Brooklyn this was literally the case. Also you could scarcely find an ATM that wasn't outta cash.

putting any article that remotely backs up my claim that china is heading to war here

http://www.popsci.com/china-microwave-weapon-electronic-warfare

http://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-military-official-war-2017-1

also theyre buddies with north korea and kim jong un said hed nuke los angeles (but apparently their nuclear weapon can only reach san francisco)

and as nk's govt grows more unstable

i dunno

shit meet fan yo

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/mikhail-gorbachev-ussr-last-soviet-premier-russia-world-prepare-war-syria-donald-trump-middle-east-a7548646.html

and as nk's govt grows more unstable

And as the usa's govt grows more unstable

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/jack-ma-if-trade-stops-war-starts-2017-2

not a lot of content but more of a statement from jack ma

As time goes on I'm feeling increasingly optimistic that reason will prevail and the US won't launch some appallingly indiscriminate attack on the MIddle East. I hope I'm not wrong.
― Nick, Sunday, September 16, 2001 8:00 PM (fifteen years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

oof

it'd be nice to live in that timeline

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ralphjennings/2017/02/14/japan-and-trump-are-teaming-up-to-contain-china

The long-time American ally has the military might -- world No. 7 per rankings by the database GlobalFirePower.com -- to be a persuasive player in Asia. China ranks third and has militarized disputed islets off its coats.

Japan has the economic clout, too. It gives development aid and investment to poor countries in Asia in part to maintain a pro-American, anti-China alliance. Other allies include Vietnam and the Philippines. The United States, however, has other things to do -- back to that America-first element of Trump’s nearly month-old presidency. It might lean on Japan to do some of its China checks.

“For what’s going on in Asia, the U.S. is not going to be as large of a presence,” says Christian de Guzman, vice president and senior credit officer with Moody’s in Singapore. “There may be a desire for Japan to fill that void.” Otherwise China might fill it, he adds. “China has promised a large pool of investment for the Philippines. Then the Chinese government turned around and promised a similar package for Malaysia. They are trying to gain influence through investment.”

After Chinese ally North Korea test fired a ballistic missile into the sea on Sunday, both Japan and the United States protested. Trump gave Tokyo another boost by reassuring Japan that the uninhabited but strategic Japanese-held Senkaku Islands disputed by Beijing fall under a U.S.-Japan security treaty. Defense collaboration will “intensify,” says John Vail, chief global strategist with Japan-based Nikko Asset Management. The two sides “share several geopolitical concerns,” he adds.

japan having the military might is debatable at the very least

everything else seems par for the war course imo

a few steps closer

“The full range of the United States military capability is dedicated to the protection of Japan. Japan, you are our friend — you are our ally — and on that foundation, we will face the future together,” Pence told the thousands of American and Japanese sailors who packed the deck of the USS Ronald Reagan, which is based in the port city.

...

“Under President Trump, the U.S. commitment to Article 5 of our security treaty is unwavering, and the treaty covers all of the territories administered by Japan, including the Senkaku Islands,” Pence said.

Claiming sovereign power over the uninhabited islets, Beijing regularly dispatches government ships to the area — moves that have unnerved Tokyo.

Article 5 obliges the U.S. to jointly defend areas administered by Japan, and U.S. top officials have repeatedly affirmed this obligation to ease public concerns among Japanese over the potential for military clashes between Japan and China.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/04/19/asia-pacific/politics-diplomacy-asia-pacific/u-s-vice-president-pence-says-north-korea-sword-stands-ready/

full response trump made wrt dprk yesterday (floating around the web)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C94uuuPUQAAxjjV.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C94uuuPUQAAxjjV.jpg

yeah we're all gonna die

and i still haven't played the new zelda

if youre wondering about coal

china stopped importing coal from north korea at the end of feb

itll now import it from usa and russia

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-northkorea-coal-exclusive-idUSKBN17D0D8

china also threatening to cut oil supplies

http://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/China-Ready-To-Cut-Oil-Supplies-To-North-Korea.html

as part of a piece criticizing the NYT's coverage of our global no-name war:, here's a short list of selected ongoing conflicts that the US is involved in:

Over 6,000 days after it began, America’s war in Afghanistan continues, with Times correspondents providing regular and regularly repetitive updates;

In the seven-year-long civil war that has engulfed Syria, the ever-shifting cast of belligerents now includes at least 2,000 (some sources say 4,000) U.S. special operators, the rationale for their presence changing from week to week, even as plans to keep U.S. troops in Syria indefinitely take shape;

In Iraq, now liberated from ISIS, itself a byproduct of U.S. invasion and occupation, U.S. troops are now poised to stay on, more or less as they did in West Germany in 1945 and in South Korea after 1953;

On the Arabian Peninsula, U.S. forces have partnered with Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad Bin Salman Al Saud in brutalizing Yemen, thereby creating a vast humanitarian disaster despite the absence of discernible U.S. interests at stake;

In the military equivalent of whacking self-sown weeds, American drones routinely attack Libyan militant groups that owe their existence to the chaos created in 2011 when the United States impulsively participated in the overthrow of Muammar Gaddafi;

More than a quarter-century after American troops entered Somalia to feed the starving, the U.S. military mission continues, presently in the form of recurring airstrikes;

Elsewhere in Africa, the latest theater to offer opportunities for road-testing the most recent counterterrorism techniques, the U.S. military footprint is rapidly expanding, all but devoid of congressional (or possibly any other kind of) oversight;

From the Levant to South Asia, a flood of American-manufactured weaponry continues to flow unabated, to the delight of the military-industrial complex, but with little evidence that the arms we sell or give away are contributing to regional peace and stability;

Amid this endless spiral of undeclared American wars and conflicts, Congress stands by passively, only rousing itself as needed to appropriate money that ensures the unimpeded continuation of all of the above;

Meanwhile, President Trump, though assessing all of this military hyperactivity as misbegotten — “Seven trillion dollars. What a mistake.” — is effectively perpetuating and even ramping up the policies pioneered by his predecessors.

Are We At War? if we are, it's a war with no name, which might just be the point.

http://lobelog.com/six-questions-for-the-new-york-times-on-americas-wars/