DRUMMERS: Advice for a beginner

5) Thank you ilx for allowing me to put these thoughts somewhere. I really don't want to turn this into my diary but I appreciate that no one has told me to stop. If you want me to take it elsewhere, I can easily, happily, and peacefully do that.

yeah we want you to take it elsewhere - TO THE NEXT LEVEL!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gi27ZhdiCc

glad your lessons are going well! he seems like a good fit for your learning style.

lol i karaoked that song once and it was kinda boring

i karaoked that song once and was told by my disappointed ex-gf that i did not do a good job, and that she was surprised that i didn't know it better because i was always pumping up the jam around the house

dang "you failed at pumping the jam" is a mean thing to say

5) Thank you ilx for allowing me to put these thoughts somewhere. I really don't want to turn this into my diary but I appreciate that no one has told me to stop. If you want me to take it elsewhere, I can easily, happily, and peacefully do that.

keep going!! I love your posts itt.

cosign

1) I have asked myself for years whether or not being the sort of dancer who could pretty much shake it to anything (with the exception of songs I refuse to dance to on principle alone) comfortably and with zeal would help a person be a drummer. The answer, based on experiential evidence, is yes.

I've long thought the opposite is true, too.

<3 yer posts itt

4) He said that playing along to drumless songs was a good and fun idea but I can tell that he definitely wants me to improve my skills before i demand to go berserk in public or even around other people

I like to think of the relationship between drum teacher and student as being like that of yoda and luke skywalker -- luke is always like "c'mon, I wanna go wail on Darth Vader now," and Yoda is always like "you are not ready." And in the end, Yoda knows that Luke is gonna go wail on Darth Vader before he's ready anyway, because it's just too tempting, but he has to try to hold Luke back as long as he can.

but i think stuff like that is important to learning too because it's fun, you're not going to want to learn if you're not having any fun

yeah, he totally encouraged me to keep doing it - he never told me not to do that - but i feel like he is also taking me seriously and i appreciate that.

here is some advice -- in that art blakey ginger baker video, play like art blakey, not ginger baker

talking shit about ginger baker will get you respect in drummer circles*, that's a good tip.

*not to be confused with drum circles

does he have you playing along with the Tony Conrad & Faust record?

that would actually be a good beginners exercise -- you could start playing what the drummer on the record is playing and then add things once you've got the basic rhythm down

ugh! i have all evening to practice and my brain cannot focus on counting this many boring numbers without drifting off and then forgetting to count
i can do the task and play the beats, but i frequently lose track and then i start counting in different ways to amuse myself and it gets away from me.

---> requesting tips for keeping mind focused exclusively on counting because that is obviously a challenge for me. it's such a weird feeling to have to focus so hard on one thing. it's not a feeling i am familiar with, really. also, am i feebleminded or something? did anyone else here ever have trouble learning to count? surely i am not the only one who has experienced such a challenge.

please note -- i am able to count and do it correctly 3x in a row but i have to reaaaaaaaally remain focused and today i just lost my temper and posted this dumb post but i am going right back down there to try again. don't worry.

no, you aren't feebleminded. I've been there. I remember playing a piece where the drums had to play the same part 32 times, and I was like, "Are you fucking shitting me? You expect us to count to 32!" When as a normal human being, not in front of a drum set, counting to 32 is exceptionally simple

or just like maybe point at me when it's time to change it up? dang.

thank you x100, that makes me feel better. it's like this awful switch that goes in my brain as soon as i have to play and count, it's like a self-consciousness button and it used to always self-destruct, but training it to keep going is...weird. attempting to lose one's self-consciousness even in the most minor way is super super weird.

also obvs i did it. i did it right 3x in a row, and i recorded myself the last time. i am not gonna lie, i was super nervous, but when i listened to it, i honestly thought in my head, "this is me?" i'm sure it's not anything special, but it's the first time i have heard myself play anything resembling music (ie not plinking around or noise or whatever) on an instrument since i was in...6th gr? it was alarming but also gave me a little good feel. so, again, thanks drumming. <3 u.

i'm going back down there now. i just had to report the news of my recovery. also it is clearly progress that i understood your story, right? i'm making progress in understanding the whole system of things i need to think about at the same time in order to properly play this instrument, i think. i hope.

So is the issue that your mind is busy monitoring your body playing the parts or is that you zone out and forget to count?

Do you count in your head or out loud?

Counting out loud, ime, was the best way of focusing and not doing the zoning out thing

Practice counting along with recordings, like when you're just listening and not playing. It can even be kind of fun, in an aspie sort of way, to count along with a song and figure out the structure of it.

the tedium of counting depends on how you're doing it. would you mind sharing how you're counting? i mean are you counting every single beat, like:

ONE, two, three, four, TWO, two, three, four, THREE, two, three, four, FOUR, two, three, four...

or are you counting every bar (just the all caps words in the line above) and leaving out the beats?

or are you counting by phrases? (e.g.,just counting every time you play four bars, or eight bars, or twelve or sixteen bars)

the reason i ask is that counting can be very tedious when you're counting every single beat. but with enough time and practice, you won't need to do that anymore. you'll be able to intuitively sense when a bar has gone by, and when four bars goes by. with enough time, you'll even be able to sense when 16 or 32 bars (or even longer) has gone by, without ever counting.

So is the issue that your mind is busy monitoring your body playing the parts or is that you zone out and forget to count?

Do you count in your head or out loud?
(1) i zone out and forget to count and then i can't get back where i was so i just give up and guess and then i start over because i have to learn how to count! at least this one time i do.
(2) i have tried in my head, and that's ok because i am kind of alarmed at the sound of my own voice and the process of saying the words + actually counting + playing all at the same time. moving my lips deeeefinitely helps though. i just fear it's a little undignified and don't want to make it a habit, but maybe i'm expecting too much.

H2 - i totally have been doing that while walking and also at home. tried it while driving and once while biking and it was not good for concentration either time. walking is ok though. i have recordings strategically placed around (car, shower, record player, shuffle) that are conducive to training my ear to listen for drum parts. it's definitely fun! thanks to that i have since moved bernard purdie to the top of my current favorite list. i looked up who was playing on new grass and was like THAT guy. wow. what a life.

anyway i had to break for dinner, but i did some fun stuff at the end to kind of wind down (i'm getting the hang of practice routines too, which is kinda fun) and it sounded pretty good! overall a good day even if i did flip out for a minute there.

and now i will tell you about my counting

1) i simply cannot count out all of the notes (1+2+3+4+) because it's like too many words and i get trapped thinking about that and forget to play with any feeling, and that's just not fun so i just count measures - like repetitions of the 8-note pattern? 1...2...3...4...etc. even that gets booooooring

2) it would be a loooooot easier if there were any other music to listen to as a cue -- but right now i apparently need to master this skill before i can go with my gut.

(2) i have tried in my head, and that's ok because i am kind of alarmed at the sound of my own voice and the process of saying the words + actually counting + playing all at the same time. moving my lips deeeefinitely helps though. i just fear it's a little undignified and don't want to make it a habit, but maybe i'm expecting too much.

you need to make it a habit. It also helps to get in the habit of counting all the notes, as opposed to just the bar #, because you will eventually move on to playing more complex patterns and counting the notes will be necessary.

I went through the same thing w/counting, and feeling like a dork counting out loud, and argued about it w/my drum teacher, who ended up being right.

you need to make it a habit.

nah, i wouldn't be so prescriptive there. i never liked counting out loud either. internally, sure.

If counting internally is not helping you play basic patterns a certain number of times, then you need to do it out loud.

It's just a good habit to develop, like limb independence and economy of movement, because it will make it easier to do more complicated things later on.

ok
that's a good point and i need to remember it.

see that's also what i mean about not knowing which habits are good to develop or will eventually hold me back.
i am a v needy student when it comes to supraskill/metalearning (??) information, apparently.

thank you!

oh I was too! And my teacher would go there with me, but then he'd get to a point where it would come down to, "No, you just need to do this this way and trust me." And 99% of the time he would be right.

I think the 1% involved trying to play the kick drum like Zach Hill - and there was a lot of trial and error

haha. that's great.

to be clear -- i know that i rely too much on inner metronome. on the recording i made, i can hear the spots where i spaced out, it's super weird. i just need to train my brain (this is the hard part) to be able to focus that intensely on something boring like counting. it's just not a skill i'm familiar with. at all. teacher asked if i meditate and i said no because i don't but i can totally see how it would help.

ok, I just had an ilx = small world moment and realized that your husband made a movie about someone who was in my drum teacher's band 20 yrs ago!!!

haha! let's not get too into that.

anyway, regardless of his reputation, he was a good drum teacher

that's what matters!

This is probably bad advice for a drummer but dancers count in sets of 8, and I can just feel them now, I don't actually have to count the beats anymore. It takes time to get there, though.

lol music theory pun

This is probably bad advice for a drummer but dancers count in sets of 8, and I can just feel them now, I don't actually have to count the beats anymore.

not bad advice at all. after a while you can feel the beginnings and endings of phrases even in relatively beatless, ambient songs, minutes in

well yeah i have felt that dancing both with and without choreography, but this is different because i am making noise, not just moving my body
my problem is not feeling, it's precision
since my ability to feel is not going to disappear, but this skill of counting may be useful to me in the future, i am developing it.

loud noise!

I remember learning to count, and here's a reason it matters beyond just the basics of keeping yourself on track: Once you do internalize it -- which you will -- it becomes the basis of how you as a drummer understand music. 8 bars of this, 5 beats of that, 3 over 4, whatever, math is the fundamental language of percussion. Eventually of course you reach the point where you don't think about the structure of the language, as with any language. But until you get there, you keep counting things.

this is different because i am making noise, not just moving my body
to clarify - different in that my brain is kind of shocked by the amount of noise and what it sounds like and that is distracting too, like i'm hovering over myself rather than just disappearing into what i'm doing
adding counting to that is like massive overload but i'm definitely getting better at it, that's the good news.

let me review the advice:
* it's ok to have a hard time at first
* counting out loud is not only ok, but necessary at first (unless you are some kind of zen genius)

anything else? i am wondering specifically about how to reduce my nerves/self-awareness. i have to take my lesson this week in an unfamiliar location and i am trying to quell nerves that zoom up my spine when i think about it.

honestly sometimes just admitting that something is making me nervous is enough to defuse the bomb. how silly to be nervous about going to a different location. maybe i'm just looking forward to it and that is becoming signal-mixed into bad nerves. I AM OK.

I remember counting out loud at first was pretty difficult, but after a while it just seemed natural. The progression went, awkwardly counting out loud -> awkwardly consciously counting in my head -> subconsciously counting in my head. So, it'll definitely happen.

I'm curious if your teacher is talking about movement at all, e.g., not using just your forearm?

not really? at least not explicitly.

i mean, i feel pretty loose in general, and he encourages me to ~feel the groove~ so beyond that i'm not sure what kind of movements you mean. arm movements? leg movements? i know i do a weird thing with my head sometimes.

Arm movements, mostly. But that'll probably be addressed later. Never heard of a drummer/drum teacher try to dissuade a drummer from moving their head, so you're probably ok there (also helps with keeping shoulders loose).

yeah i don't think i'm there yet.
it's interesting to think about, though, because it's a very physical activity that also requires (for me) rather serious mental concentration as well. i think i am going to ask for a short warmup period/routine instead of diving directly in -- i do it at home and it kinda helps me get in the right mental place and maybe will help to release some energy so my brain doesn't fritz out.

This is probably bad advice for a drummer but dancers count in sets of 8, and I can just feel them now, I don't actually have to count the beats anymore. It takes time to get there, though.

― Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Tuesday, August 20, 2013 10:39 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This is the right idea, except that not everything can/should be counted in sets of 8. But a lot of stuff in drumming, especially at the beginner stages, certainly can be.

yes, feeling larger groups of phrases while still being able to subdivide when necessary.